Q for Steve Toburen and the rest of you god fearing cleaners

everfresh1

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I look for long term soil retardancy when compared to untreated fabric or carpet that I expose to the same amount of traffic and spills.

That may be true Jim, But most people think that by simply treating thier carpet with the stuff, That it will make thier carpet stain proof or something. If you dont vacuum regularly and proberly maintain the carpet, It's not going to matter what you apply to it. Plus that stuff wears of, Just from the abrasion of the traffic. I still don't think it works very well but maybe you could post something that supports your position, like a video. I'm hoping to make it down to Mikey's fest maybe you could set up a Demo there.
 

Jim Pemberton

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I'm not heavily invested in whether or not cleaners agree with my experience. I think they should test what they want to use, and then make their decision based on what they see for themselves. I'm not sure that videos or demos that I might do would (or should) impress anyone, as you can make either do whatever you want, and you have to take the amount of traffics, soil type and time exposure, etc. on faith.

This has been a terrific discussion, and I respect those who remain uncomfortable selling something that they can't make themself believe in as its an evidence of a high degree of personal integrity. It sure beats the guys who sell "the invisible" (which protector is until there is measurable proof to the customer that it works) without even once questioning whether or not it works.

I'd be happy to discuss with anyone how I do my tests, but no one should take my word for it, but instead do it themselves.
 

Mikey P

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I am going to assume Steve/Jon Don and Mr Pemberton have determined the ideal pH/residue condition for nylon carpet to be in to optimally receive the topical treatment.

Can a Nylon that was just rinsed with Dry Slurry or another aggressive type detergent be effectively treated?


What about a heavy Acid Rinse residue?


and will a Encap type rinse allow the Protector to do it's job?
 

Greg Cole

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There is an easy way to determine if Scotchgard or your preferred protector is working. step #1 - Clean the crpets in your home. Step 2: Go into the middle of your living room and write "SFS" in protectant in BIG letters. properly rake it in. Then wait 4-8 weeks- The letters SFS will appear in the middle of your room if it is working.

People that don't offer protectant to their customers and talk negatively about it are seriously mis-informed.
They actually make our industry look bad. We all seriously need to get on the same page.
Remember this : Protectant good - Dirt bad! Protectants stop the abrasive dirts from wearing down the yarns prematurely...... If the customer keeps the carpet - you get more cleaning jobs. If the customer replaces the carpet - it is usually 2 more years before they will start calling you again.....

- Here's hoping 2010 is as good if not better than 2009!
 

Jim Pemberton

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Too much of any surfactant residue, regardless of pH is a bad thing when it comes to fluorochemical bonding. There are as many, if not more, problems with the wrong acid rinse or too much of it as there are with alkaline products.

I'm starting some new tests today based on the inspiration some of these well thought questions have given me. I don't think that I'll have any answers until June though, as I want the carpets that I test to be exposed to traffic, vacuuming, and at least one cleaning with a variety of products. The durability to cleaning is another issue about protector that is debated but rarely tested.

Its been years since I tested fluorochemical on olefin. I think its time to run that test with some new products and techniques.

But my test results will only be meaningful for me; I'll just be sure to let you know how I set everything up so you can try it yourself.

I'd like to see some comparitive testing done on carpet that has been encapped with a variety of products as well. I'm not convinced a plastic dish is the best test for soil resistant qualities, so I'll look forward to the results the encap specialists here have to share with us.
 

Steve Toburen

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gregcole said:
Go into the middle of your living room and write "SFS" in protectant in BIG letters. properly rake it in. Then wait 4-8 weeks- The letters SFS will appear in the middle of your room if it is working.
I'm in favor of this, Greg!

Island Boy
http://www.StrategiesForSuccess.com

PS OK, Jim, be sure to include in your Testing Protocol the phrase that Greg specifies above. :)

Nice to see the more or less civil tone this discussion is engendering. Just because someone does/does not believe in the effectiveness of any given carpet protector is not cause to question their ancestry/ intelligence/ worth to the human race. Simply put, if you do not believe in something you should never sell it to your customers.

On the other hand, if you are a "true believer" the very best way to build credibility for your carpet protector application is to include (at no extra charge) a "12 Month Spot and Spill Warranty with every application. I believe it is called "putting your money where your mouth is". :) Here is an excerpt from my "Up-selling on the Home Front" Report on how the "protector warranty" concept works:

"Do NOT guarantee with your "12 Month Spot and Spill Warranty" that the customer will never have a permanent stain. (Even though if you have properly applied the carpet protector and use correct spotting techniques it will be highly unusual for a spot to not remove completely.) Instead, you are “guaranteeing” that if after the customer has tried (following your over-the-phone instructions if necessary) to remove the stain you will come to their home at no charge and use all professional methods possible to restore the carpet. Note: If you wish, as part of your warranty you can offer to refund the cost of the carpet protector application if the stain does not come out completely.

Include the “spot warranty” with all your protector applications. Why not offer two options with a higher, premium price for the protector with a warranty? Here is my admittedly opinionated reasoning on this point:

a) Customers are “warranty shy” nowadays. After all, how many times have you bought a $75.00 boom box from Best Buy and then they try to “up-sell” you on a $30.00 service warranty? It is a much more positive Moment of Truth to include the program as a FREE bonus. People love this idea and your protector sales will sky-rocket!

b) Your free spot and spill guarantee shows the customer that you have confidence in the product to protect their carpets. After all, if you believe in it so will they.

c) Don’t confuse the customer (and your technicians) with too many choices. If you make things too complicated for your employees they just won’t offer the product. I wanted to keep things as simple as possible with a simple “yes” or “no”. (With this concept most customers said “yes”!)

Include reasonable restrictions on covered spots. Since you are including this service as a free bonus in the carpet protector application your customer will have no problem with some reasonable restrictions. These can include tracked in soil in traffic lanes (this isn’t a spot, it means they need their carpets cleaned again!), pet urine and feces, petroleum products and extensive water or sewer damage. We lowered the expectations of our clients by explaining in writing that all carpet protectors are designed to protect against common food and drink spills and that is what we guarantee to remove. We also told them that complete carpet restoration depended on the volume of the spill. Six ounces of Coke? Very likely no problem. Two liters? Hmmmm … that may be another matter!

Put some responsibility on the homeowner. After all, it is THEIR home and at the end of the day, THEIR problem Plus remember, you are including this service as a free bonus. So the customer needs to step up to the plate and do their part:

a) The homeowner must contact you within 24 hours of the stain occurring. You don’t want to deal with stains that are months (or years!) old.

b) Before you make your free “on-site” visit the homeowner needs to make a reasonable effort to remove the spot on their own. When they call your first step will be to give them professional advice over the phone on how to remove the spot.

c) Use of improper chemicals will void this warranty. If the housewife has already dumped the bottle of Resolve on the spot following up with a healthy application of Tide you don’t need to make this your problem! The answer? Give each customer (whether they buy protector or not) a bottle of professional spotter with free lifetime refills provided by YOU! Talk about a customer for life!

The spot warranty should expire one year after application of the carpet protector. After all, how often do you want to clean your customer’s carpets? At least every year. Interestingly, we have found that customers have every intention of having their carpets cleaned yearly. However, the stress of daily life means the project often gets postponed indefinitely. But the customer’s spot warranty expiring in one year reinforces the need for you to return and adds a “time dated urgency” to your follow up mailings."

These are my thoughts on the "12 Month Spot and Spill Warranty" concept. Our members that have implemented it tell me people love it and yet less than 2% ever call for a free spotting visit. Now is this because the protector is doing its job? Or just that customers are lazy/forget? Maybe Jim P's testing will give us the answer! :)

To download the entire "Upselling on the Home Front" Report just go here:
http://www.strategiesforsuccess.com/sec ... al-reports
 

Mikey P

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MWF7 should be all about the testing.
I'd like to see some comparative testing done on carpet that has been encapped with a variety of products as well. I'm not convinced a plastic dish is the best test for soil resistant qualities, so I'll look forward to the results the encap specialists here have to share with us.


hopefully Tony will have passed away by then and we can actually get something done.
 

Jim Pemberton

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What Steve said.

I believe what worries some cleaners (as it should) is that if the carpet protector doesn't perform as your customer expects, it will create loss of trust between them and their customer.

And they are right, and it does often do just that.

Making a guarantee with some teeth in it, like Steve mentioned, is more important in today's market place where people have less trust than ever, and feel like they need as much value from every purchase that they make.

Greg, Steve:

Make sure you check with your significant other before performing such a test in the middle of your floor. The fairer sex tends not have a good sense of humor about the love we all have for the technical aspects of our business.

Now if you create a template that says her name and yours within the outline of a heart, now that's another story.....
 

Bjorn

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most of the sales tactics for protector largely over exaggerate the importance of said product.

Now that being said and how most protector is never mixed rite or applied properly

Most sales of this product include using fear with innuendos " well if it's not applied your soul will rot in hell for all eternity"

making it sound like your doing the same thing the way it is applied at the mill.

Also using it on polyester and olefin carpet is just a plain waste of the customers money

the other big problem is selling this product is the only way the carpet cleaning tech can really make a good pay check.
 

Jim Pemberton

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hopefully Tony will have passed away by then and we can actually get something done.

Don't you have an ENEMY that you can pull the wings off of and burn with a magnifying glass instead of picking on your friends all of the time?

I just think you got annoyed by Steve's comment on how civil this entire discussion has become, and couldn't help yourself.

Besides, Tony scares me. He spent his formative years amongst primitive people who know about all sorts of potions, poisons, and curses. You should be more careful.

Steve: I don't believe this thread will get back on course now. It was nice (but not fun enough for Michael) while it lasted.
 

Steve Toburen

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Odin said:
most of the sales tactics for protector largely over exaggerate the importance of said product.

Now that being said and how most protector is never mixed rite or applied properly

Most sales of this product include using fear with innuendos " well if it's not applied your soul will rot in hell for all eternity"

making it sound like your doing the same thing the way it is applied at the mill.

Also using it on polyester and olefin carpet is just a plain waste of the customers money

the other big problem is selling this product is the only way the carpet cleaning tech can really make a good pay check.
Pigs are flying in Alabama right now because I reluctantly find myself in agreement with every single one of Terry's points. However, I (and evidently a majority of the members here) believe that correctly applied and properly sold protectors are a good product. But everyone needs to prove it to themselves.

IB
http://www.StrategiesForSuccess.com

PS
the other big problem is selling this product is the only way the carpet cleaning tech can really make a good pay check.

Just for you, Terry, here is another excerpt from the "Upselling" Report:

"Remember that principled selling to the homeowner emphatically rejects high pressure pushiness in the home or even worse, the dreaded “bait and switch”. You should not only do exactly what you have promised but even give a “baker’s dozen” by doing the little extra things at no charge. (And yes, I personally believe that charging extra for pre-spray is unethical and I don’t care how much fine print the company has in the ad!)

However, there is nothing unethical or immoral about tactfully offering your customer the opportunity to spend more money on a needed service for their home and in the process help both your technicians and you to enjoy a better lifestyle! Sounds like up-selling is a big “Triple Win” for the homeowner, your employee and YOU!"
 

Jim Pemberton

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Drink enough of that Southern Comfort there Gordon, and you'll see about anything.

I'm concocting my favorite "fluorochemical etcher" formula to scrub my test carpets with right now. You got to make sure there's not much protection left before you put anything new on after all.

The amount of glycol ether in this stuff will make you see pigs fly too........just from breathing it.
 

steve g

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I think protector is a bunch of snake oil, I do sell it if someone asks for it. but I don't promote it, to me it makes more sense using it on upholstery if anything. we are seeing more olefin and poly products lately everyone should agree those 2 fibers see NO benefit to protector. the problem with protector is it only repels stains that I normally don't have trouble getting out anyways, pet stains and kool aid have very limited protection. keep in mind suppliers are on the whole protector works take, don't even think for a smidgen of a moment a supplier would come on here and say it doesn't work, so to me their opinions should be taken with a table spoon of salt and a shot of tequila for good measure.
 

Jim Pemberton

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OK Steve. I can see where I stand with you on this one.

My final word on the matter:

My intent on making any of the above comments wasn't to sell any of you anything. You'll not see a brand mentioned in my posts.

Do the tests yourself, and if you come to Steve's conclusion, then don't dare sell it. I am going to retest olefin and polyester, as well as the new Triexta. I'm looking for any potential resistance to particulate soil oil bonding.

We'll see. I would hope you'll all do the same.
 

steve g

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Jim Pemberton said:
OK Steve. I can see where I stand with you on this one.

My final word on the matter:

My intent on making any of the above comments wasn't to sell any of you anything. You'll not see a brand mentioned in my posts.

Do the tests yourself, and if you come to Steve's conclusion, then don't dare sell it. I am going to retest olefin and polyester, as well as the new Triexta. I'm looking for any potential resistance to particulate soil oil bonding.

We'll see. I would hope you'll all do the same.

jim, keep in mind I don't doubt what you are saying, butj the point I wanted to make is if any supplier feels the way I do, they are not going to come on here and say so. just trying to highlight what perspectives people have when they make comments on this matter.

another point is who cares if this stuff comes out great in a test, none of us who are using quality products have trouble getting out coke stains, baby formula stains, most oil stains, basically my prespray and 2 spotters POG and t rust take out 95% of stains, koolaid and pet or the tuff ones, protector offers extremely limited protection in these cases. so even if it works as advertised is it helping anything I say no.
 

Jim Pemberton

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Thank you Steve. I appreciate your clarification.

You bring up a point that does need some attention: What place does positioning protector as a stain resistor have in 2010, when our stain removers are so much more advanced than they were 30 years ago? I will ponder that thought for a while.

As I said, my focus on tests this year is for oil bonding issues. I'm frustrated with and not a little worried about how polyester and the triexta fiber are gaining market share. My tests so far show triexta to have the same oil bonding problems as the "original" PET, and not quite as much as olefin. Thus my upcoming tests on oily particulate resistance.

Keep the good thoughts coming; I'll rejoin the conversation now that I don't think Steve hates me anymore :lol:
 

Able 1

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I had a custy 2 weeks ago with some of that new carpet she told me the protector was in the fiber... She had a ink spot the size of a golf ball she called them up and they told her to mix 50/50 bleach and water. :shock: She did it and it took the spot right out with no discoloration. :? Their guarantee is if they can't get the stain out they will replace the carpet.

I personally don't push protectant at all, but I always have it in my van. There is a local guy that told me that after it is mixed you have to use it within 48 hours or it dosen't "work" is that true?
 

Greg Cole

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steve g said:
I think protector is a bunch of snake oil, I do sell it if someone asks for it. but I don't promote it, to me it makes more sense using it on upholstery if anything. we are seeing more olefin and poly products lately everyone should agree those 2 fibers see NO benefit to protector. the problem with protector is it only repels stains that I normally don't have trouble getting out anyways, pet stains and kool aid have very limited protection. keep in mind suppliers are on the whole protector works take, don't even think for a smidgen of a moment a supplier would come on here and say it doesn't work, so to me their opinions should be taken with a table spoon of salt and a shot of tequila for good measure.

If you sell something you truly don't believe in- then you are no better than the B&S guys that are ripping people off! <yikes- did I just write that?> :D
 

Greg Cole

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Odin said:
the other big problem is selling this product is the only way the carpet cleaning tech can really make a good pay check.

You sound like a bitter ex-wife - What gives?
 

Dolly Llama

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OK, I love this one...

lets sell 'em 'guard, but lets sell it for 2/3rds of the cost of cleaning and give them a warranty full of exclusions, along with "reasonable" expectations that it doesn't mean we can get any spot/spill out except for the easy ones that she could get out herself with a bottle of Resolve and Bissel Little Green Machine.....with or w/o 'guard


But, you've all convinced me to do some new evaluations on my own in an effort to increase my profits .
Since admittedly, I've never done tests with the current protectant we carry on board (Maxim) and it's been years and years since I last did any evaluations
If i can convince myself it really is of great value to anyone but my bottom line, I can find a way to tell Mrs Phiff her carpets will take much longer to dry and the stiff "crunchyness" her widdle piggies feel as she skips to the loo in the morning...is normal and will go away with traffic and vaccing....


..L.T.A.
 

Mikey P

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On the positive side of Tony's testing, I was left with 10 gallons of various protecTORS that were all missing a few ounces.


What is the shelf life on the type tht require 1 gallon per 200 ft of carpet to be effective?


I'm afraid I'll never use those..








and I paid for them too :oops:
 

Loren Egland

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I have a customer who always had me apply SteamWay Fabicover Gold to her white family room carpet. Gold has quite a bit of the dye blockers. I twice had red stains, jello and red wine or kool aid, can't remember now for sure, but I did not have to do anything but clean them out. It was that easy. It was a nylon carpet.
 

Dolly Llama

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Mikey P said:
What is the shelf life on the type tht require 1 gallon per 200 ft of carpet to be effective?


I'm afraid I'll never use those..

sump'um tells me those are the ones that will be most effective too..


..L.T.A.
 

randy

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I had great luck with complete seal for years but now the price is just out of all reason. They will tell you that you should be charging $1,000 per gallon applied, " so the price of the product is really irrelevant ". It's used on the entire Netjets fleet and every Gulfstream jet manufactured , I guess they don't need the carpet cleaning market and have jacked the price up tremendously. That being said when I buy a new car I have always complete sealed the carpet, however next time I will probably use Larry Cobb's solvent protector ULTRASEAL. It's half the price and from what I can see works just as well.

I do see protector as being oversold and under delivered in our industry. Our local channel 4 news did a slam piece on carpet cleaner applied protectors 7 years ago and I still hear customers mention it. The network consumer affairs guru basically said protectors are a rip off and to skip it. That effected protector sales big time.

A traveling seminar in our industry is all about promoting protector sales, double your profits....
Problem is the end users are much more hesitant to buy carpet protector these days.

If I was marketing mainly to the residential side of the market I would author a free report entitled, " how many carpet cleaners rip off homeowners, Don't be a victim. 20 year industry veteran exposes the scams, techniques and blatant lies.
The first paragraph would tell the homeowner to never buy carpet protector because 9/10 times they are being scammed.
 

J Scott W

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It has been very interesting to test products in a controlled lab setting. It has given me a chance to see how well various products work. But when I ran my own cleaning busienss, I tested protectors on my own home carpets and my office carpets, leaving portions unprotected. It did not take long to noticed where the protection was applied.

Although stian resistance gets most home-owners attention, I think the greater benefit is resistance to dry soiling. That is what really damages carpet over time.

I also find that many times technicinas apply less proetector than needed. Use a sprayer with large enough tip to apply droplets rather than a fine mist. A fan sprayer tip gives more even application than a cone type. Apply the amount suggest for the number of square feet being protected. I liked to cover the area spraying one direction and using about 1/2 the amount of product. Then turn 90 degrees and apply the other half. Use a Grandi Brush or Grandi Groom to rake it in.

To more directly answer Mike's question. I think protectors work well if properly applied. As with most advertising, the product being promoted is put in the best possible light. Testing for ytourself gives a more accurate picture than believing that what you see in any advertising is exactly how the product will work every time.
 

harryhides

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Mikey P said:
MWF7 should be all about the testing.
I'd like to see some comparative testing done on carpet that has been encapped with a variety of products as well. I'm not convinced a plastic dish is the best test for soil resistant qualities, so I'll look forward to the results the encap specialists here have to share with us.
hopefully Tony will have passed away by then and we can actually get something done.

I would welcome any testing and would certainly be willing to help out.
I actually did learn quite a lot about what can and what cannot be done over a few days.
Testing is not nearly as simple as it might appear at first - my first mistake.
There are so many variables that these tests ( assuming some good protocols can be actually be designed ) can be done for years.
 

Art Kelley

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harryhides said:
[
There are so many variables that these tests ( assuming some good protocols can be actually be designed ) can be done for years.

Indeed, a protector test would only be useful if you could observe the various products in real world use over a period of months, preferably a year or longer. Then you could see if they were worth what you are charging the customer, or would they be better off just cleaning a little sooner.
 

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