Question for the restoration experts

[Wandslinger]

I have a friend who sent me the below. Does anybody have any experience in this area?

Hey, I need your opinion. I have attached an estimate from a restoration company. My condo in Palm Desert had a sewer back up. The poo came up through the toilets, the bathtubs the sinks etc… It was on the floor for 5-8 days before it was discovered. The report, as you go through it has photos. The restoration company says the feces and urine permeated the grout, and got into the mortar. The insurance company wants to pressure wash the floor. The floor company says it cant be cleaned and properly sanitized as it got to the mortar bed, and permeated the grout. The next door neighbors insurance ripped out their floor. Mercury is refusing to do it for me. The condo is listed for sale, and we have to disclose the damage. My realtor says it is going to kill the sale if the floor is not replaced. I want your opinion as to this situation. I don’t believe it can be properly sanitized. The floor restoration people said you can surface clean it, but the shit is going to come up over time and smell again. Thoughts?"

 

[Lyman]

Mercury insurance is the worst, in my experience .

 

[Andy]

If the restoration company is reputable they should be able to SHOW from the industry standard what and why they need to it. If they can do that then the insurance company would be obligated to pony up. Concrete is porous would they require the slab to be replaced?

 

[Fat Mike]

Slabs can be cleaned and sealed. You can’t do that with thinset that is below tile.

I would have ur friend ask for another adjuster if that doesn’t work find a public adjuster.

I have one who may be licensed in Cali if not I’m sure he has a network, just pm me and I can get you his info.

That floor should definitely be pulled we just finished one last month

 

[Wandslinger]

Thank You Gentleman

 

[sassyotto]

slam dunk.

The IICRC has a written standard on this. Remove and replace. Mike can chime in here too

 

[FB19087]

slam dunk.

The IICRC has a written standard on this. Remove and replace.

can you point me to that? Maybe my edition (3rd) is too old

 

[kmdineen]

can you point me to that? Maybe my edition (3rd) is too old

Grout is porous and the restoration company stated that sewage penetrated the floor. The floor should be removed and the subfloor cleaned or replaced.



ANSI/IICRC S500-2015 fourth edition:



1.2 & 1.2.1 Provide for the safety and health of workers and occupants.



15.5.1.2 porous and semi-porous contents- cat 3 water.



Page 99, Attempts at salvaging sewage-contaminated carpet and OTHER POROUS MATERIALS can also liberate extensive amounts of allergens, as well as potentially infectious agents. (Do not power wash).



13.3.7 Pockets of saturation.



13.3.9 Cleaning and decontaminating salvageable components. (Do not power wash.)



17.2.1 Restorability



17.3.2 Remove and replace unrestorable materials.



17.3.2.1.Remove and replace in category 2 or 3 intrusion.



17.4.8 Concrete.



17.4.8 hardwood floors.

 

[FB19087]

Grout is porous and the restoration company stated that sewage penetrated the floor. The floor should be removed and the subfloor cleaned or replaced.



ANSI/IICRC S500-2015 fourth edition:



1.2 & 1.2.1 Provide for the safety and health of workers and occupants.



15.5.1.2 porous and semi-porous contents- cat 3 water.



Page 99, Attempts at salvaging sewage-contaminated carpet and OTHER POROUS MATERIALS can also liberate extensive amounts of allergens, as well as potentially infectious agents. (Do not power wash).



13.3.7 Pockets of saturation.



13.3.9 Cleaning and decontaminating salvageable components. (Do not power wash.)



17.2.1 Restorability



17.3.2 Remove and replace unrestorable materials.



17.3.2.1.Remove and replace in category 2 or 3 intrusion.



17.4.8 Concrete.



17.4.8 hardwood floors.

You can't just say "it's porous" and then quote everything that says remove cat3 porous items. Where in the S500 does it dictate that a tile floor over a mortar bed should be demoed in Cat 3?

Unless there is some problem drying, loose tiles, or there is continued issues (efflorescence) there is usually not a need to re/re T&G. In addition to the permeability of the floor the potential for microbial growth is also a consideration and it is relatively low in grout/mortar. Also of note none of us knows what this man's policy states.

12.3.7 Ceramic, Marble, Stone Flooring Installations
When ceramic tile is in place over a concrete or stone substrate, it is highly moisture-resistant, especially when
installed using mud-bed (mortar) methods. However, when installed over wood subfloor materials (plywood, OSB,
particle board), or when using thin-set or mastic installation methods, it is often less resistant to extended exposure
to water.



It is most similar to concrete/brick/block which also usually stays in place.



Devil's advocate

 

[Fat Mike]

You can't just say "it's porous" and then quote everything that says remove cat3 porous items. Where in the S500 does it dictate that a tile floor over a mortar bed should be demoed in Cat 3?

Unless there is some problem drying, loose tiles, or there is continued issues (efflorescence) there is usually not a need to re/re T&G. In addition to the permeability of the floor the potential for microbial growth is also a consideration and it is relatively low in grout/mortar. Also of note none of us knows what this man's policy states.

12.3.7 Ceramic, Marble, Stone Flooring Installations
When ceramic tile is in place over a concrete or stone substrate, it is highly moisture-resistant, especially when
installed using mud-bed (mortar) methods. However, when installed over wood subfloor materials (plywood, OSB,
particle board), or when using thin-set or mastic installation methods, it is often less resistant to extended exposure
to water.



It is most similar to concrete/brick/block which also usually stays in place.



Devil's advocate

This is where moisture meters are crucial to see if there’s moisture that has gotten beneath the tile. We look for cracked grout lines, cracked tiles and we also check for hollow tiles then we will also check for moisture content to determine removal. Most we have dealt with here are auto removal. Even most adjuster elect to err on the side of caution and instruct it’s removal

 

[kmdineen]

You can't just say "it's porous" and then quote everything that says remove cat3 porous items. Where in the S500 does it dictate that a tile floor over a mortar bed should be demoed in Cat 3?

Unless there is some problem drying, loose tiles, or there is continued issues (efflorescence) there is usually not a need to re/re T&G. In addition to the permeability of the floor the potential for microbial growth is also a consideration and it is relatively low in grout/mortar. Also of note none of us knows what this man's policy states.

12.3.7 Ceramic, Marble, Stone Flooring Installations
When ceramic tile is in place over a concrete or stone substrate, it is highly moisture-resistant, especially when
installed using mud-bed (mortar) methods. However, when installed over wood subfloor materials (plywood, OSB,
particle board), or when using thin-set or mastic installation methods, it is often less resistant to extended exposure
to water.



It is most similar to concrete/brick/block which also usually stays in place.



Devil's advocate

Let’s not over think this, Fred. Sewage is under the floor tiles. According to the S-500 the area under the floor must be inspected, cleaned and disinfected. How can this be accomplished without removing the tiles?

 

[Hack Attack]

Sewage was sitting several days

grout is moisture resistant not waterproof

I'd expect it to be through the grout and under the tiles.

 

[Cleanworks]

If I'm the home owner, I want that floor ripped out. The adjuster is trying to pinch pennies.

 

[dealtimeman]

this is pretty simple, as the cat 3 water that had poop permeated through the grout.

you can clean the top of the tile and guarantee that the top is clean but You can’t do that with great assurance of the voids and grooves under the tiles and in the thin set.

must be removed as liability will remain with the contractor that did not remove the possibility of a gross situation under the tile.

that is negligence, on behest of the contractor.

stop allowing insurance companies to dictate how you do your job as on the end the contractor has the liability not the insurance company.

you imagine if insurance comapnies told doctors or surgeons how to do their jobs?

 

[Mikey P]

Super Grout Additive for the win

 

[Lee Stockwell]

this is pretty simple, as the cat 3 water that had poop permeated through the grout.

you can clean the top of the tile and guarantee that the top is clean but You can’t do that with great assurance of the voids and grooves under the tiles and in the thin set.

must be removed as liability will remain with the contractor that did not remove the possibility of a gross situation under the tile.

that is negligence, on behest of the contractor.

stop allowing insurance companies to dictate how you do your job as on the end the contractor has the liability not the insurance company.

you imagine if insurance comapnies told doctors or surgeons how to do their jobs?

But they DO...

 

[dealtimeman]

Finally someone in the room took the bait.

yes, lee they sure do and that is what is wrong with the medical insurance industry as a whole.