removing urine

[Ron Werner]

from researching urine, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urine ,
its main component is urea ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urea ), and sometimes uric acid ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uric_acid ) The urea gives off ammonia ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonia ) hence the overpowering smell. All we need to do is neutralize the urea/ammonia or chemically alter it so its something else.

I have not tried the OSR as yet, hard to get it up here unless I ship it in.
But OSR isn't to be used on wool if I remember correctly.

Apparently vinegar will neutralize ammonia, ie acid base reaction.
However, that is just substituting one smell for another.

Wondering: What if a carpet was soaked in a hot vinegar solution. It would be safe for the rugs. Once the ammonia is neutralized, then treat it for neutralizing the vinegar smell.
Or more practical to just soak in another acidic solution, ie Fibre rinse, Ultra Release, etc. More expensive but not trading problems.

Apparently ammonia with an acid converts to ammonium salt which can easily go back to ammonia. Right back where we started.

discussion...

 

[Mountain View Carpet Care]

 

[boazcan]

Wondering: What if a carpet was soaked in a hot vinegar solution. It would be safe for the rugs. Once the ammonia is neutralized, then treat it for neutralizing the vinegar smell.

Yep, have done it several times. Add a recirculating pump to the pit and let soak for 24 hours.

 

[Ron Werner]

shits easier to remove shiteatinggrin

 

[Roger Koh]

Wool is protein fiber.

So is leather, protein fiber too!

If a system works on leather, it should work on wool as well.

See this more than 70yrs old aniline loveseat – restored from dog peed by the owner himself.

If that is easy for him, it should not be a problem for you.


#2

#3 Here is the stain. The dark part is stiffer than the unaffected area

#4 Close-up

#3 after - close-up!

Roger Koh
info@leatherdoctor.com

 

[sweendogg]

Ron.. you just now getting into this??

Are we talking rugs or carpet? cuz you go back and forth.

Irregardless you still have to get the bulk of the contamination out before worrying about smell. Why do you think most of your urine preconditioners are acidic in nature?? they neutralize and break up the ureaic salts so you can remove then. Then the bacteria and smell can be dealt with as well as any organic staining present. If its synthetic and relativiely color fast you can use pretty anything deoderizer you want to accomplish the task... from oxidizers to molecular modifiers to enzymes... Now oxidizers will do double duty as an Odor and Stain Remover.. like the lable OSR implies. And oxidizers tend to work rather quickly. Molecular modifiers like Odorcide, DD 12, Quat-Alot, Skunk Out, and several others tend to work by attacing the odors on a molecular level and usually are quite effective but you have to penetrate all contaminated areas to remove the odor, and they don't always deal with the staining, (one of the nice benefits of using the 02 system with DD 12 as you have mentioned as it tends take care of staining... for carpet use at least). Enzymes are rather effective if they have enough time to work.

One small problem with enzymes is the wrong type like to attack protein soils, so they can sometimes be destructive to wools as Roger alluded about the protein base material. Now we are getting to a point were enzyme based products can be made safe for wools by using the correct types of enzymes. Masterblend just released a wool safe enzyme odor product called Urine Lock.

Now with Wool rugs.. you have to deal with dyes that can destabilize rather quickly from higher pH or even higher heat. Wool is dyed at much lower temperatures compared to synthetic fibers. Also alot of times if its old urine deposts, the rapid shift from acidic body liquids to a high pH of ammonia will very often destabilize dyes as well.

So staying on the acid side helps to prevent further destabilization.. you also would not want to use heated liquids as again better chance at destabilizing dyes. but Acetic acid is used quite often as the first step in loosening urine deposits to be flushed out of a rug. Mostly because its effective and in bulk is relatively inexpensive, and can be used in a final rinse to give the wool a soft hand as any acidic rinses will do.

We use Skunk Out as it has enough solvency and surfactants to effectively clean the rug as well so you now only need one product to clean and deoderize in a urine situation. its also slightly acidic which can be helpful, though with bad rugs, a pre application of acetic acid or sometimes urine preconditioner is used.

Randy H talked about DiChlor being used in certain situations with sucess and it being safer than bleach and other oxidizers.. but most oxidizers will play hell on cotton foundations and even the wool it self in some cases.

Its not just the pH shift you have to worry about with urine. Bacteria are the cause of the rapid shift that digest the ureaic acids and convert their waste products that off gas the odor and end up converting to salts when the moisture dries up, but with any salt, as soon as humidtiy or moisture is reintroduced, they reactivate and the smell returns so removing the bulk material including the salts is always the first step. Woven rugs can be fully submerged often for full removal and on wall to wall its important to recreate the contamination so you can treat all affected layers from carpet down to subfloor, and still be able to remove all the excess moisture and material. This is were water claws or spot claws have become hugely important.

 

[lust1kiddo]

pee removal..just what I do.

Acid rinse..you dont have to soak it very long..just long enough to break down the salts..maybe 20 30 minutes or so..

Then I extract and use One Clean to clean it unless its silk. I am not a fan of the water claw, but people swear by it. I use it sometimes, but mostly my upholstery tool.

Then I mix up some Molecular Modifier (CTI Pros Choice) and just pump spray it on and walk..

Any time I have deviated from this method or tried other shit..I had to go back. Again, this is just what works for me.

Jarred

 

[NobleCarpetCleaners]

I'll help you Ron with what works for me. Bummer you can't get certain products up there but here goes.

I learned a trick from Lisa Wagner (that is one smart cleaning technition and even smart business person),..........vinegar. Yep, I use white vinegar from the grocery store mixed 50/50 with water. Dump it right on the carpet (got your suction and water claw handy) and let it soak right it. Ya I know, it stinks like crazy.

Busts up old urine extremely well. I'm spoiled down here because I can get things like CTI's Urine Pre-Treatment but that's really just some acidic dissolver with some purfume in it. Try the white vinegar on installed carpet over concrete foundation. Pour it on 2 or 3 times what ever it takes to see clear water in the claw window. Claw until there ain't no more moisture coming up. Follow with some topical HWE and mist of deodorizer.

 

[Roger Koh]

Re: Tips on urine decontamination

Tips on urine decontamination, to think about!


If you can decontaminate protein fiber like the absorbent aniline leathers, I post earlier.

You can do similarly on the oriental protein wool rugs underneath too.

And if you can do on this oriental, you can do on a Berber “bleeder” protein white wool wall-to-wall maybe next room too!

Easier to move downwards in degree of technical difficulties – you only learn one system and applies to all.


Simple 3 steps system!

It’s by using a high pH 9.9 protein remover, to remove the protein component of the urine.

It’s by using a low pH 2.1 urine neutralizer to neutralize the ammonia component of the urine.

Plenty of rinsing at pH 3.0


What do you think?


Roger Koh
info@leatherdoctor.com

 

[sweendogg]

I like your thinking Roger, but the problem here is that you are dealing with often several different dyes that are already possible unstable or close to unstable with Oriental rugs because of the elevated pH levels of the older urine deposits so starting with an alkalkine would not be a rug technician's best first choice. Startin acid to restabilize the dyes and break up urine salts and then work inwards to break up the proteins. and rinse.. but here is another issue. With oriental rugs, your dealing with gallons of solutions on a thick three dimensional product that needs saturation through the entire rug.. Leather I would guess does not require nearly as much liquids and cleaning solutions so while I'm not familiar with the cost of you products, its wise to keep in mind how economical a process might be as well. While a person may pay 350 dollars to decontaminate an 8x10 oriental rug. A decontamination still requires time and labor so paying alot for chemistries is only going to eat into the profitability.

Consider we can get a 55 gallon drum of Master Rinse (safe to use glaicel acetic acid (better smelling white vineger) ) at about 9.60 a gallon. (528.00 and change) We can dilute that down to about a pint to a gallon of water and its still very effective for urine decontamination, which about two gallons in a pits on an 8x10 so our cost is about 3 dollars and change. plus its a versatile product so we can use to detail fringes and, and do a final rinse to impart a soft hand to the rug.

And for us, if its not severe, we can use Skunk out. Granted about 47.00 a gallon, but We dilute a quart to a five gallon stock solution can and we use about a quart of that on most rugs. it provides plenty of deoderizing and detergency to clean and deoderize the rug, so if you do your math that means we have all of .60 in decontamination of a rug as long as its not to severe.

So while I like your thinking... how economical does your system become when using so much product? And are you able to dilute your products down and maintain the effectiveness when you are subjecting them to pits with 200 to 300 gallons of water in them?

 

[Roger Koh]

Sure, when comes to economic, technicalities may sometimes make no “cents”.

Yet interesting to know how they work.

You are sure spot on when comes to reversing the sequence for bleeding control.

I have learned that protein fibers can shift either positive or negative depending on the pH value that influences them.


Makes no difference how much products is used between leather and rug, why the need to spread the contamination when you can contain them and removed from the spot?


Note:

Urine is a compound issue with time deteriorating the problem and can be identified by the gases it emits from ammonia to mercaptan foul odor. Home accidents with cats seem to be the worst.

Strange that protein fiber can shift either positive or negative in relation to its other constituents with consequence of bleeding dyestuff or denature leathers.


Roger Koh
info@leatherdoctor.com

 

[sweendogg]

here in lies the problem with treating spots vs. entire rug.. often if you can identify a spot on a rug that has a pet accident.. there are 10 more you won't be able to find until you wet clean it. So treating entire rug is a sure bet way. and you don't contaminate a rug, you flush all the old urine out of the rug.. and keep flushing until all of the urine is washed away.. Pits simply allow a way to submerge the entire rug so the entire rug is soaked from fiber tips to the foundation where often the largest amount of contamination has occured. you still have to trade the water out as it becomes soiled. Often times you can slab wash and utilize a river effect to keep contaminants flowing from the rug as you add clean water.

 

[Roger Koh]

If you see these 3 pictures; there is no need to put the object in pits or running waters.

Spot decontamination follows with complete saturation of the leather thickness suffice.

Yet we are basically doing the same thing – to decontaminate the urine from protein fibers.

Guarantee no urine odor thereafter be it aniline, nubuck or suede; all protein fibers.

If this technique can be done on above protein fibers…it sure will do equally well on other wool fibers.

It is something to think about or even testing it out.

When homes have Orientals, most likely they would have leathers too!

They are just like twin sisters that furnishes the home and they need cleaning too!

#1 Spot Cleaning

#2 Rinse Saturation

#3 Dwelling

Roger Koh
info@leatherdoctor.com

 

[sweendogg]

Your also talking about a one dimensional object Roger.. Not something and takes and wicks up mositure so easily that you could two gallons of water on and sometimes it wouldnt even feel wet. Wool rugs are giants sponges.. you can't surface treat them. think of your clothes.. if your kid peas his pants.. you take and put it in a washer.. you don't think twice about it, you don't wrap the pants in plastic and and try to remoisturize them!

 

[sweendogg]

and again good luck on identifiying the exact source of the contamination as you may see a spot on the surface but the cotton foundation fibers have wicked that spot along the weft and warp alot farther than the topically contaminated fibers.. they are in essence two different beasts when it comes to urine decontamination. And wool rugs in general are cleaned through full immersion technquies so its not going through a specieal process necessarily just more time and slightly different chemistry to get all the urine out. A regularly soiled rug is still fully immersion cleaned usually after a good dusting and remove all the extra soils.

 

[Roger Koh]

Does it surprise you that this 3 steps technique works on hair-on-hide and thick woolskin too; without the need for pits immersion or running water?

Isn’t this cowhide thicker than normal oriental rugs?

Roger Koh
info@leatherdoctor.com

 

[sweendogg]

I guess I should preface... neutralizing odors and complete decontamination are a bit different. I would wager I could pull more urine out of those hides. So it comes down to our definition of clean and decontaminated.

 

[sweendogg]

... and most sheep skins and animal furs and often easier to clean than woven oriental rugs. the intricate knots and foundation and trap alot more crud then a straight skin.

 

[Roger Koh]

I guess I should preface... neutralizing odors and complete decontamination are a bit different. I would wager I could pull more urine out of those hides. So it comes down to our definition of clean and decontaminated.

Do you think paying clients care how much urine we can pull or definitions?

What they want is urine odor free, stain gone and the material returns to its original chemistry integrity.

And if they can easily put their fingers through these spots in a year or two, they will certainly remember and come back to haunt us.

Roger Koh
info@leatherdoctor.com

 

[blsydney]

The best way to remove urine smells is by sprinkling some biracb soda...will remove any smells straight away!

 

[sweendogg]

lol I think we are both trying to accomplish the same end goal Roger.. But I've really enjoyed the conversation! Thank you! somewhat amus

 

[Roger Koh]

The best way to remove urine smells is by sprinkling some biracb soda...will remove any smells straight away!

Are you encouraging us to try it as well?

And in what situation?


By the way, Welcome to the Board!

Roger Koh
info@leatherdoctor.com