Round spot turning green in front of Gas Firplace

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Bill Soukoreff
I have not gone to see this yet, but a carpet store received a call regarding a brown carpet still under warranty that has a large round spot turning green in front of a natural gas fireplace. Area not used much, they claim nothing has been spilled there. Sorry, that's all I have right now to go on right now until I get a change to have a look. Any ideas?
 

harryhides

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Bill, these pictures are from an Inspection that I did for Shaw a few years ago on a one year old carpet.

FumeFadebest-1.jpg


Under a black light -

FumeUVbest2.jpg


Sent the pics to Shaw testing and they told me that they had seen this before a few times and put it down to combustion gases - Nitrous oxides if I remember correctly - no cure or fix except a little color repair work but no prevention - see below for possible solutions.
Tell your customer to have their fireplace checked out for complete combustion. See if you can see a hole from the basement looking up at this spot as there's gotta be a reason why this is happening in just this spot. Watch the smoke from a stick of incense also works - perhaps their exhaust fan blowing out of the basement is pulling air from the main floor anywhere it can.



Good luck.
 

truckmount girl

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I would be more suspicious of whatever was used to clean the register, Tony. Same with the hearth on the fireplace.

Looks like color loss form a "disinfecting" cleaner to me.

Take care,
Lisa
 
R

R W

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truckmount girl said:
I would be more suspicious of whatever was used to clean the register, Tony. Same with the hearth on the fireplace.

Looks like color loss form a "disinfecting" cleaner to me.

Take care,
Lisa

I've noticed spots like these on darker and beige carpets. I think you'll find them most common in areas that use natural gas for heating. I don't know what it is, but I do see it often. I had a post a few weeks back about a beige commercial carpet that "greened" out, but only on the baseboards (which were made of the same carpet as the floor)

It's one of those "nobody knows" spots.
 

truckmount girl

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Seriously guys, people clean registers, baseboards, tile hearths, etc. with products like 409, windex, etc.

Take care,
Lisa
 
R

R W

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truckmount girl said:
Seriously guys, people clean registers, baseboards, tile hearths, etc. with products like 409, windex, etc.

Take care,
Lisa

But Lisa.....I find them just anywhere on some carpets. If it were a bleaching product, it would have a different "spot color".
 
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harryhides said:
...put it down to combustion gases - Nitrous oxides if I remember correctly - no cure or fix except a little color repair work but no prevention - see below for possible solutions.
Tell your customer to have their fireplace checked out for complete combustion. ......

Someone at Shaw was surely deducing improperly.
I'm surprised that nobody (except for Lisa) caught on to the near impossibility of this scenario. Central heat furnaces using registers like this don't push combustion gases at all, let alone incomplete burning ones, through the ducting. All combustion takes place , and the gases are vented separately from the heat exchanger and blower unit which feeds the registers. Only if you had a serious HX breach could you have gases of the nature described coming through those vents. Even then, to theorize it as NOX, you have a lean condition, not a rich condition (incomplete burning) to have oxides of nitrogen being produced.

I'm not saying you don't have some kind of fume fading, I just question the deducted precise causation.

Mills certainly have been known to make up stuff when the alternative is to say they don't know right off.
 

Desk Jockey

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Could the large green circle come from the bottom of the wood bin?

Is it possible that condensation from a metal wood storage bin being in such close proximity to the heat caused rust on the carpet and it oxidized to green in color?

Just guessing, they may not even have a metal bin. :roll:
 

joe harper

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Looking at the photos that Harry has posted....

This damage could have been done by a "pRoFFessIoNaL" cleaner.... :shock:

has anyone NOTICE the obvious "Furniture Stain"...on the carpet... :?:

Also the blacklight...reveals that some type of liquid cleaner...has DRIPPED on the
carpet ..approuching to affected area... :!:

What ever the solution WAS....It has DISRUPTED the dye-blockers in the yarn.... :wink:


Dupont..RESOLVE CARPET FOAM...is fAmOuS for causing this type of Dissruption... :roll:

The VENT ..appears to be NEW...This may have been replaced to cover-up...the signs of
an attempted cleaning of the vent ... :?:



ps In a attempt...to remove FILTRATION lines.....you can create the same ...dissruption
of the dye-blockers....Very high alkalines are NEEDED to remove the filtration... :shock:
 

The Great Oz

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a brown carpet still under warranty that has a large round spot turning green in front of a natural gas fireplace
How large is large? Hard edges the shape of an area rug? Faint color change? Proximity to furnishings/plants/etc? Not enough info to make a guess.


I think Harry's vent color loss has to do with oxidation, but I think Lisa is correct about the source of the oxidation. I've seen both homeowners and clueless "pros" do this to soil filtration lines using peroxide mixes. The area glows because the product used also included optical brighteners, making it more likely the homeowner did the damage. Drips from container to affected area would also rule out fume fading, unless there were holes in the subfloor drawing air.

I once inspected a house that had the same discoloration in spots everywhere, plus around the perimeter of every room upstairs. Glowed like a fun house under UV and the customer swore she didn't do any spot cleaning. We found an almost empty gallon of Quick-N-Brite under her kitchen sink.
 

harryhides

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The picture or the discoloration around the heat register was less than a year old and had never been cleaned. Only the 2 registers nearest to the furnace were thus affected.
I have also seen numerous cases of BHT Yellowing immediatley in front of heating registers, so I would question Shawn's notion of ZERO combustion gases - clearly something coming thru in the heated air from those registers was affecting the carpet's color.
 
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I didn't discount fume fading, Tony. I just doubted it was from combustion, since the combustion chambers gasses don't exit the registers, they exit the building through a separate vent. Fresh air is brought from the room via the furnace blower, then passing through an air-air exchanger, where it picks up only the heat of the combustion.

If the furnace were producing combustion gasses that entered the room, it would come from the combustion air intake, unless as i said, you had a serious complete failure of the HX AND poor combustion to boot. Even then, gases could only exit when the furnace blower shuts off, due to positive pressure on the clean side of the HX when the blower is on. On top of that, you would have to have a failed control for the burner, as it would be on, when the furnace blower is off. Talk about a perfect storm of failure, I imagine the odds against are several million to one.

Chances are it's something else. But then again, maybe the Shaw technician had a degree in engineering with emphasis on furnace design, and he did a complete on-site investigation.

Perhaps you have something else emitting vapors, or some other pollutant capable of doing the fading.
 

harryhides

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Not all furnaces operate as they were intended to, heat exchanges can and do crack.

As an aside, after having treated over 300 cases of BHT Yellowing over a ten yr period, I never ONCE saw this take place in any building that was heated with electric heaters. The two most common heating systems up here both use natural gas as the fuel. One is forced air and one heats water and circulates the hot water around the house. Never once saw BHT Yelowing in homes heated with hot water system, not one.

As for Bill's original problem, it could be a number of things my guess is just one of many.
 

The Great Oz

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The picture or the discoloration around the heat register was less than a year old and had never been cleaned.

I've never done an inspection where the homeowner was trying to get the mill to replace carpet AND would admit they did anything to the carpet. :wink:
 

truckmount girl

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If the register was more than a week old it would be dirty. Of course the register had been cleaned....the carpet maybe not, but the register yes. The heat from the duct can accelerate the chemical process, same as fading in front of a slider where the homeowner/maid uses Windex or such to clean the glass, overspray mists down to the carpet and the sun/heat accelerates the process. That's why you don't ever see uniform color loss in front of a slider, it's always worst right near the glass where the cleaning chemicals land.

Take care,
Lisa
 

joe harper

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Tony,

Couple of :?: 's...

Why the Furniture stain ? Was replacement done due to a water damage ?

If that is NOT a new Vent...Then the Installer has cut the carpet "Short"..

If the installation was proper......Then there was a LARGER vent ..there at time of install..

Is this room located over a basement.?

Looking at the BASEBOARDS...this home appears to have been built prior to 1970..?

If that is correct...The vent plates..were possibally made of BRASS or even COPPER...

So the stain could be ..from a patina..forming on the under-side of the ORIGINAL vent...?

Unless ..Dr Henry Lee ..was called in...the SPLATTER from a chemical...still confounds ME..!


We installed a LOT of this Shaw product in the late 90's...I cannot recall the style Name... :x
But is was a nylon...with that unique TWIST....Shaw was promoting it as a TRACKLESS carpet.
 

The Great Oz

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We installed a LOT of this Shaw product in the late 90's...I cannot recall the style Name...
But is was a nylon...with that unique TWIST....Shaw was promoting it as a TRACKLESS carpet.

Type 6 in a late 1960's era single wide. Furniture stain is from the couch brought in from the porch two hours after it started raining. Guess comes from plastic vent diverter, standard in mobile homes, but everyone else knows airflow + plastic = static charge that attracts airborne soil. Considered a better than average install by Crazy Eddie's Carpet Barn.

The mill might be right, but what are the chances the homeowner spilled a cup of oxides of nitrogen right onto a vent? :mrgreen:
 

harryhides

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HARPER said:
Tony,
Couple of :?: 's...

Why the Furniture stain ? Was replacement done due to a water damage ?
If that is NOT a new Vent...Then the Installer has cut the carpet "Short"..

If the installation was proper......Then there was a LARGER vent ..there at time of install..
Is this room located over a basement.?

Looking at the BASEBOARDS...this home appears to have been built prior to 1970..?
If that is correct...The vent plates..were possibally made of BRASS or even COPPER...

So the stain could be ..from a patina..forming on the under-side of the ORIGINAL vent...?
Unless ..Dr Henry Lee ..was called in...the SPLATTER from a chemical...still confounds ME..!

We installed a LOT of this Shaw product in the late 90's...I cannot recall the style Name... :x
But is was a nylon...with that unique TWIST....Shaw was promoting it as a TRACKLESS carpet.

This was several years ago but if memory serves the carpet was fairly new. The heat register was made of plastic.
Brass or copper registers are so rare in these parts, I've never seen one copper and only a few brass.
All carpet Installers around here are CAT 3 Hacks, sort of like in Florida !!
All homes up here have basements.
The house was not that old, prolly 90's ??
Don't think it was a furniture stain, potted plant.
The splatter/ drip marks only show up under UV light and could have been customer trying some kind of spot remover ??

Try to get some sleep now Joe.

:mrgreen:
 

joe harper

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Thanks for not YeLLiNG at me harry....

And ...Yes..the install's here in Fl. are Hacks.....The northerner Installers..ReTiRe here... :roll:



Ps Shawn is :x at me....We are not going to PlAy together ANYMORE... :cry:

So NOW...I have to be NicE to YOU... thathurts
 

harryhides

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HARPER said:
Thanks for not YeLLiNG at me harry....

And ...Yes..the install's here in Fl. are Hacks.....The northerner Installers..ReTiRe here... :roll:

Ps Shawn is :x at me....We are not going to PlAy together ANYMORE... :cry:

So NOW...I have to be NicE to YOU... thathurts

I just don't know if I'll be able to take that...... it will take some getting used to.

:eek:

:arrow:
 

joe harper

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Tis..Tis..

I have fOrGivEN....you...

You are always RiGhT...Harry...

I shall NOW agree with everything you say..You are now my NEW mentor...

I am you YES man...

No more emotioncons...
 

Lyman

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I have seen this twice in 15 years. Both times the gas furnace had a crack in the combustion chamber, thus releasing the fumes into the out going air to the house. I had to clip fibers and send in for the same response.
 

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