Sapphire Scientific- Why health hazard 2 on chemicals?

[ruff]

I'd be happy if Joe Domin or Bill Bruder or anybody with Sapphire can explain this.
Why in this day and age, where most manufacturers' detergents and presprays have a health rating of 1, yours have the health rating of 2.

http://www.sapphirescientific.com/Uploa ... 0Apr09.pdf

http://www.sapphirescientific.com/Uploa ... 0Apr09.pdf

Now, I don't want anybody to take this to be a thread about trashing or bad mouthing, because it ain't.
I am truly curious.

Am I missing something?
Are other manufacturers, shall we say: 'creative with the truth'?
Or, you do not consider that to be much of an issue?

Please inform.
Thanks

 

[ruff]

Bill...............................?

 

[ruff]

Joe Domin..............?

 

[Mike Draper]

anybody?

 

[Brian R]

Helloooo




I just like to be involved.

 

[J Scott W]

I don't work for SS but we do distribute their products. So, I know a little about them. But I will not answer specifically about SS, just about formulators in general.

When manufacturers formulate products they have choices to make about how powerful the finished product will be. There are plenty of aggressive ingredients that can be included. But how aggressively a product performs must be balanced with potential damage to a carpet or floor and potential harm to the user or other folks.

Someone could have asked the question "Why doesn't brand X make their products stronger?" Each company makes different choices when balancing aggressive cleaning with safety.

Sometimes I get phone calls from end-users who say, "I tried ___________ (Insert name of any Bridgepoint product) and it did not completely get the stain out. But when I used ___________ (Insert name of competing product) the stain was completely gone. Why don't you make your product stronger?"

I also get calls from people who say "I used __________ (insert name of competing product) and it removed color from the carpet. How can I fix this?"

There are buyers who want stronger cleaning agents. there are buyers who want safer cleaning agents. Each manufacturer would love to have products that everybody loves, but not everyone wants the same things.

It is a balancing act. Different folks make different choices. If a safer products works for your business, by all means use. If you feel you need a more aggressive product, buy that but use it with care.

 

[Bill Bruders]

Mike Kerner the Senior Scientist and chemist at Legends will post a more detailed response to Ofer's question later today but to help clarify this issue a bit and some of Scott's comments here is a bit of information.

1. Our MSDS sheets are international in nature because our products are sold all over the world. Some countries such as Canada and every country in Europe have specific guidelines for how to score for health as well as the other areas of an MSDS sheet and many of these countries have regulatory agencies that review and certify these documents.
2. In the US there is no certification body that reviews MSDS sheets for accuracy. Thats not to say there are not companies that do third party reviews for a fee and provide feedback and recomendations because there are and we use such a company. However many smaller regional manufacturers or those who simply private label a product may not use a third party because of cost etc.
3. An MSDS sheet is supposed to represent information for a product at it's packaged concentration not the diluted usage level. So products that have less fillers in them and that are a better value may carry a 2 rating versus a 1. Or its always possible that some of these MSDS sheets are providing ratings for the diluted level even though they shouldn't because of the lack of regulation.

As I said before Mike can supply greater detail on this and it might make a good topic for one of the wednesday night presentations. As for the actions of other manufacturers I won't speak for them or their practices. I don't feel competant commenting on the safety of other products, I know we are conservative because we care about our customers and want them to have the best info we can provide.

 

[Kernm1229]

To follow on Bill’s responses, some other details are noteworthy:

• We use outside contractors to prepare our Sapphire Scientific MSDSs so that we can present as objective as possible a document. We think this reduces the chance of inconsistency. By contrast, a leading product in the marketplace is rated Health #1 but carries the exposure warning: “Inhalation – Dusts can be harmful to nose, throat and mucous membranes. Ingestion – Swallowing dusts or solids burns the tissue and may cause sever abdominal pain, nausea and vomiting.” This doesn’t seem consistent but oversights do occur.
• The number 2 health hazard refers to potential risks under conditions of “Intense or continued exposure”. Since all of you continuously use the product (as least we hope you will!), this condition seems most applicable.
• When dealing with dilute solutions of most alkaline products, it is wise to rinse in the event of exposure. Even if the ready to use solution presents no immediate risk (and truck mount rated products are very heavily diluted), as the water evaporates, the effective concentration of alkali increases. So you know that itchy feeling you get on the back of your hands at the end of the day? A little rinse helps with that.
• Finally, thanks for raising the question. This is good, healthy discussion and helps to keep everybody sharp. If you ever have a question about a Sapphire Scientific product, you can also call our tech support line or use Live Chat on the website.

 

[Mikey P]

Next month Sapphire will be giving away 150 gallons of Level 4 stuff they inherited in the White Magic take over just for our less than supportive members.




:shock:




In all seriousness look for SS to start conducting classes here on Wednesday nights in Cermak's chat room
We'll cover topics such as this one about chem safety and proper usage, truckmount design and maintenance, upholstery cleaning, hard floor cleaning, leather care, tool design and much much more

Also look for more chemical give a ways in the near future :!:

MB'rs are very fortunate to have the largest manufacturer in our industry so supportive of this board.

 

[joeynbgky]

Thanks mr bruders.

Sent from my g2 using tapatalk. Whofat

 

[ruff]

First, Bill, Mike and Scott, I appreciate the answer and you do make good points.

Though I am definitely a minority on this board, I do every once in a while have to answer questions regarding toxicity and MSDS sheets from my clients. And clients here in the Bay Area are both educated and conscientious of these issues.

Your MSDS sheet, honest as it is, puts me (as the person who deals directly with the consumer and may choose to use your product in their home) at a disadvantage regarding making that choice.

From my experience and almost without exception, clients when given the choice, will choose a healthier rated product, unless it does not clean well. I've used many products through the years (some rated 1, some 2; some perceived as healthier, some as less so.) Most homes that are regularly cleaned and vacuumed, clean quite well with normal strength products.

Yes, Scott is right, we all make choices as cleaners about which features of the product are more important to us and there is no one perfect do it all product. I am also aware that the majority of cleaners here, do not consider toxicity rating to be much of an issue, they want a real 'strong' cleaning product and that is a fine decision.

However, if what Bill said about rating the diluted product versus the concentrated form is correct, you may choose to provide us with an official version (maybe an MSDS sheet for the diluted {RTU} product.)

After all, in a way, we are your representatives to the consumer. And it may help us sell them, our choice of using your product.

 

[Ron Lippold]

Shoot. i ran out of judsons juice today and had to buy something from the local guys, I picked up their trafic lane pre spray, 6 oz to a gallon. I use soft water and still mixed it by the lable.


Are you kidding me.....

Sucks...

Les I love Judsons Juice. Nothing better imo...

Hurry up ups. I dont want to many redos.

I love Judsons juice...................................... :shock:

 

[Mikey P]

No wonder Wallace stiffed ya.

 

[Ron Lippold]

Whats that mean Mikey? I just tried something new and it did nt work for me. I worked ft knox and smoked warren and his boys and they screwed me.

What you say?

 

[ruff]

Les I love Judsons Juice. Nothing better imo...

Hurry up ups. I dont want to many redos.

I love Judsons juice...................................... :shock:

Have you considered a 12 step program?

 

[Mikey P]

If a getto hack like Crash loves the SS prespray and Pemberton vouches for it, I'm gonna believe them rather than a guy who bought Shawn York's woe is me line of bullshit.


Ragging on that product after they just GAVE AWAY 150 gallons to MB'rs was low class IMO.



sorry dude, just pissed me off.

 

[Ron Lippold]

why would i need a 12 step program. Judsons and the rinse, 2 steps is all i need... shiteatinggrin shiteatinggrin

 

[Ron Lippold]

Mikey I paid full price for my juice. No free bee. It just did not work for me. Im not trying to bash anyone. I just like the 02. Quit hating on me bro. Im just working my ass off and love it.

 

[Bill Bruders]

It's ok Ron PLEASE keep using other Manufacturers products

 

[Ron Lippold]

Bill no hard feelings. I still like your slide ins they might be right for my next unit for del mar. We might just have diffrent dirt out here.

 

[Zee]

for my next unit for del mar.

Apropo... Ron, I never got a call from your lady in Del Mar. After I talked to you I was ready to go over there but she never called me and it's been a few months so what's up? Do you guys still need me to come by or are you moving here??

 

[Mikey P]

Shawn

If Ron did indeed use the pre spray that was given away (remains to be seen) and wants to comment about it, we have a sticky thread for him and all others to leave their opinion in, good or bad.

For him to chime in on this thread under his own unique circumstances, having helped you to in your pursuit to sue Sapphire was in my opinion, low class.

SS is doing more for the cleaners here than any other company has to date.
Hosted two MFests, ongoing monthly giveaways and soon to start bi weekly free classes.

I'm not about to let one guy ruin that.








So how is the job hunting going out there anyways?

 

[Mikey P]

Oh yeah, and while I have your attention let me ask you something, during your tantrum on Jon Don's face book you said you had 5 to 7 companies all lined up for a class action suit against me...

Never happened, was that a "LIE" Shawn?

According to you, you've never lied to me about anything.

 

[Mikey P]

Are you denying that you said the Shawn?

 

[Mikey P]

And "everyone" I know has no question as to why I am no longer a beliver in the Vortex.

 

[Zee]

[quote="Mikey P":30ww5qrl]Oh yeah, and while I have your attention let me ask you something, during your tantrum on Jon Don's face book you said you had 5 to 7 companies all lined up for a class action suit against me...Never happened, was that a "LIE" Shawn? According to you, you've never lied to me about anything.

I just read the Jon-Don facebook post top to bottom. Nice Try Mikey.

You've got nothing -- never have had anything. Just big question marks flaoting above everyone's head about why you turned on me.

The truth will come out soon enough.[/quote:30ww5qrl]


I got nothing to do with this fight (other than the fact that its boring the heck out of people around here) but your last post was dramatically changed from what I read first. Why did you change it?!?! It at least added some spice to the "fight"..

 

[joeynbgky]

Keep topics other than the title out. Thanks

Sent from my g2 using tapatalk. Whofat

 

[Mikey P]

[quote="Mikey P":1wxddr62]Oh yeah, and while I have your attention let me ask you something, during your tantrum on Jon Don's face book you said you had 5 to 7 companies all lined up for a class action suit against me...Never happened, was that a "LIE" Shawn? According to you, you've never lied to me about anything.

I just read the Jon-Don facebook post top to bottom. Nice Try Mikey.

You've got nothing -- never have had anything. Just big question marks flaoting above everyone's head about why you turned on me.

The truth will come out soon enough.[/quote:1wxddr62]


Perhaps you are not aware that Jon Don heavily edited that thread.
I have copies of the original...

So there you say you have four companies AND GROWING lined up to come after me., It was later on that you either told me on the phone or in an email that you were going to wait until you had 6 or 7 to pull the plug.

Now we both know the only people you talked to were Nick and Rob Allen

Nick and I settled our disputes and Rob...well he is just a dick.

I liked his list of peole who he thought we banned from MB.

Here is list from the Jon Don FB page as well as some comments from me.

I guess he thought all those people would join you in your suit...


So if you ask me Shawn, you were flat out lying.
Again.

 

[sam miller]

Wow this thread was totally hijacked urrr somethin smack ouch kick

Lible slander false accusation without proof. Ya even in a country with freedom of speech You cant make things up, but if its

something that is said and is based on facts is it slander? Thats for a Judge to decide or some fancy lawyers types.

The nice thing for Mike is he tells it how he see's it and if someone sends him a product to try out he'll tell ya what he thinks.

So Mike hows your Vortex???? Opinion based on experience! Just sayin if it were all good dont ya think He would say so???

 

[Ron Lippold]

Just a quick note from ron. Bill sent me a private message. It seems the product that did not work for me was not the product that bill is giving away just another on of their products. My fault....