ss,hydra,prochem...which one

[cucu]

i looking to a dual wand tm towards the end of the year...the ss machines are going to be a hard sell to me after my 370 (Mikey says i only had problems with mine because im ugly). but i have to take the word of the people i trust (Ray ,Jim B and Jim P),so i,ll keep sapphire in the mix

unless Les has a dual tm coming out ...which machine would you get

 

[Becker]

Who was it that was putting together a dual blower machine?

I'm surprised Les has not made a monster machine yet. Maybe just not enough demand.

Hey, but Mikeys Vortex, own a piece of a legend.

 

[BLewis]

I to will be looking at equipment for my next purchase. Would you care to share your issues with the 370? I am considering the 870SS but with all the new rollouts that they have had the past couple of years I am hesitant to purchase one now but to let them run their course. After all I purchased a new Vortex from said company and wish I had waited till they had had it in production longer. But, even then they (IMO) messed it up even worse with the blower exhaust design. (Ron Beatty) I have been reading about the engine that they are using for the 870 and it has been getting rave reviews. I do like it that they seem to have simplified it with less electronics and such. I want to see one up close and personal. My other TM that will be under consideration is the Prochem Everst 650HP. I do alot of restaurants and just plain like having the extra "kick butt" when needed and feel these two fit this requirement the best.

 

[steve g]

come up here to utah and get a prochem 650 from john at superior

 

[Bill Bruders]

Hi Jerry
Are there open issues with your 370 that haven't been addressed? If so please let me know because I will make sure they are taken care of.

As for the comment regarding the Vortex and the old BlueLine company I think this is a bit unfair. Sapphire is not Blueline renamed, the management is completely different, the engineering team is the most experienced in the industry by decades, we no longer produce any of the old BlueLine machines, our product offering in truckmounts is the most comprehensive in the industry, and our designs are so unique that there are patent applications not on the look, but on the innovation in heat generation.

As for the comment regarding the blower design on the Vortex and the reference to Mr. Beatty there is no evidence to support this statement.

Finally, no manufacturer in this industry has a stronger track record than Legend Brands when it comes to product quality. For over 30 years we have produced products that work in some of the most adverse environments one can find. Granted I'm as prejudice as one can be about this, but we stand by our commitments to our customers 100% always have and always will.

 

[BLewis]

Hey Bill you are correct, SS is not Blueline, my bad & I stand corrected on that. I am not one to talk Bad about a company, for all the problems that I had with my new Vortex I never once went on the boards about my issues. Blueline (Kevin & Chuck) went out of their way to resolve the problems that I was having with lack of heat. Now as to the heat exchangers/coil issues that Beatty had, I was not taking a side in the matter I was just giving my oppion based on pictures that I saw of the coils that were so gummed up, that's all.

 

[cucu]

Hi Jerry
Are there open issues with your 370 that haven't been addressed? If so please let me know because I will make sure they are taken care of.

]

Thank you for asking Bill
Ray and CMS have gone way above and beyond whenever i have had a problem. In fact i can see Rays face drain of color when he hears the words "Tri Countys ss is down " Jr and George the mechanics have stayed behind after hours to get me back on the road asap

im pretty sure Ray takes it personel, like he built the machine
the only open issue i have now is the diverter button/switch.. (which i told both yourself and mike roden about at the first mf in nashville ,imho you really need to use a different type of switch) It has never worked right ,so now i just never use the tm on water damage jobs
i dont want to sit here and dump on sapphire like Rob Allen dumped on white magic ...I bought a early unit with bugs in it ,thats all , and i know CHANGES have been made to the current models to iron out these bugs
but it is very frustrating when my unit breaks down, and more then once i have told cms "i want to take this peice of ----lemon and stuff it etc etc..But they fix it and get me running again

Its kind of like
If your AMG Mercedes 500 was in the shop every 2 months for a day or 2 for the last 18 months, you too would be looking at Lexus or BMW

 

[Leslie Judson Jones]

i looking to a dual wand tm towards the end of the year...the ss machines are going to be a hard sell to me after my 370 (Mikey says i only had problems with mine because im ugly). but i have to take the word of the people i trust (Ray ,Jim B and Jim P),so i,ll keep sapphire in the mix

unless Les has a dual tm coming out ...which machine would you get

Jerry,

The C-4 is a dual wand machine. The C-4 will run one high flow wand and maintain 240 degrees under commercial carpet cleaning conditions, or it will run two standard flow wands and maintain the same performance. The total fuel consumption for this configuration is 2 gallons per hour. If you want a C-4 to maintain 240 degrees on two high flow wands (there is no slide-in heat exchange truckmount that will do this) simply add a second Little Giant heater. The total fuel consumption with this configuration is 2 ½ gallons per hour. The C-4 has 550 CFM. This is plenty of CFM to run two wands with glides on them.

One of the biggest advantages we have with the C-4 is that it does not require any preheating prior to cleaning like a heat exchanger does. This preheating will definitely have to be done if you’re trying to use a high flow wand with a heat exchanger. You may not think this pre-heating is that big of a deal. Guys will say that they are preheating while using their Hydroforce, but it’s not really pre-heating because it is adding cold water to the system as they are using the Hydroforce. For a heat exchanger to have any chance of maintaining temperature on high flow, you must bring the pre-heated temperature up to operating temperature. Even after doing this, it will still drop temperature after a considerable amount of time doing commercial carpet. The C-4 will maintain temperature even after 6 hours of commercial carpet cleaning.

The time required for pre-heating the machine is 15 minutes. This pre-heating time can add up to a considerable amount of money at the end of the year. The cost is the accumulated time in gas and lost revenue by not cleaning carpets during that time, plus the accumulated wear and tear on the truck mount while it is not being used to clean carpet. I would say in about 10,000 hours on the hour meter that about 2,000 hours of that will be spent pre-heating if you want the unit to maintain temperature on a high flow system. This is just something to consider when making your choice. I will be glad to give more specific numbers if anyone is interested.

The cost of a C-4 with twin heaters is somewhere around $20,000 give or take a couple of thousand depending on what wands, hoses, and reels you decide on. Remember, the C-4 has a 150 gallon stainless steel recovery tank. I would like to mention something about the engine we use versus a water-cooled engine. Air-cooled engines are more reliable. That is the reason airplanes use air-cooled engines. The Briggs & Stratton 35 is as common as you can get. Any back yard lawn mower shop can service it. Plus the replacement cost is probably about ¼ to 1/3 the replacement cost of a large horse poewr water-cooled engine.

 

[Leslie Judson Jones]

Who was it that was putting together a dual blower machine?

I'm surprised Les has not made a monster machine yet. Maybe just not enough demand.

Hey, but Mikeys Vortex, own a piece of a legend.

The reason that Judson is not going to EVER make a monster machine is that it is not practical or required. There is a point to where all your eggs are in one basket and that basket costs a lot to buy. If you guys really want true dual wand performance, then it will have to be with independent recovery tanks. This way there is no conflict of wands. When one guy lifts his it will not affect the other. With independent recovery tanks, you would have independent blowers and engines. The advantage of this is that you now have redundancy in case one fails. It’s kind of like flying an aircraft across the ocean. You want to be in a twin engine, not a single engine.

Another advantage of having independent systems is that when you are single wanding, your operating cost is cut in half. With an independent system I can produce more CFM with less horsepower. A TNT Super Duty would have a 25 hp engine and a blower producing 500 CFM. Times 2 is 50 hp and 1,000 CFM. To manufacture a monster machine that produces 1,000 CFM would require a very large and expensive engine that is not common at local small engine repair shops and consumes a tremendous amount of fuel. It would cost a lot not only to purchase this engine but also to replace it.

Two TNT Super Duty’s in a box truck will maintain 240 degrees with two high flow wands and will cost somewhere around $30,000 give or take a couple thousand depending on your choice of wands, hoses, and reels. The system will also have a combined recovery of 240 gallons. All Judson truckmounts pump cold water and our regulators operate under cold water. This is very important to have a trouble-free system. Another advantage of buying a Judson machine is that you have me to support you. I’ve never kicked anyone in the teeth when they’re down and out like some of my competitors have.

There is not another truckmount manufacturing company in this industry that has had its equipment abused any worse than Judson. Our service record speaks for itself. No other manufacturer can say what I am about to say. Call one of my customers that has been running one of my machines for over 25 years and get an honest opinion about our equipment from the actual user, instead of the opinion of someone who was paid to give an opinion.

Give Mike Ramsey a call. If you need more references, I have them. Mike has been running a company in Spartanburg, South Carolina for 30 plus years. He has all the major accounts in South Carolina like the BMW plant. He will be glad to tell you some of the other accounts he has. His list of clients is very impressive.

The heat exchange guys will say that it is such a pain buying propane, and I say that it is a blessing in disguise buying propane when you have your own fill bottle at your facility. That way you are able to buy it at a substantially lower price. The ultimate system would be a propane-heated truckmount with a propane engine and the vehicle running on propane. This will extend the life of all the engines and you would truly be a green company.

The bottom line for purchasing a Judson machine is the extreme simple design, which makes it easy to repair, and the use of a lot of common, local parts. Also, for the performance you are getting, the operating cost is extremely low.

 

[Bjorn]

k]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0u9izlPZeuck]

 

[floorguy]

hey Les...

how much would it be to take my everst, plop it on a C-4 frame, and add the exchanger thingy you have on Cu's unit....then i would run my heater after.....


or should i say ill swap it, i just want the frame, coolant tubes, and an instruction book 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

and i had thought about stripping off the electronics and making it fire like a little giant....though everything seems to working fine now

 

[Walt]

The 870 is only a marketing promise right now. It may end up being a fine machine, but right now it is no more than a list of (impressive) components. I'd be very wary about buying a machine that hasn't been in the field for several years. I sure wouldn't want to be an unpaid product tester (again).

As far as getting fair reviews on any machine - be cautious. I talked with a really nice guy the other day who was raving about how awesome his new dual wand machine is. After a while, he let it slip that he couldn't keep belts on it for more than 100 hours. He'd had it in the shop more than 6 times for belts that had broken while he was on a job. Meaning he couldn't complete these jobs before he had new belts put on. I'm sure the customer was thrilled on the dry times and the efficiency while the other half of the house remained unfinished. :roll:

If I were looking a true dual wand machine I'd either be looking at something from Les or Aerotech.

 

[BLewis]

Good Morning Jerry,
Just curious if Bruders responded to your latest post. I am following this thread with interest and was just wondering.

 

[cucu]

Sapphire took it serious, in fact Bob Kline (President of Sapphire) called me on saturday to let me know that things would be made right, monday CMS got a call from sapphire and are being sent new parts to up grade my unit, I also got a call on monday and was told of the parts being sent to CMS and to reassure me that every thing was being done to bring my unit up to par with the new units. Then Ray from CMS called monday after Sapphire....everybodys was calling me..i was thinking it was me birthday

I was impressed with the responce and dont think i could ask for anything more from Sapphire or CMS...except maybe a 454 , in fact i was
So impressed I offered Mr Kline a job but i think he,s staying with sapphire..( he dont want to do trauma scenes )

Thank you
Mr Kline , Bill , And the team at Sapphire

 

[Mikey P]

SS takes this community very seriously, trust me.

Glad you got taken care of Cu.


Had a nice conversation about the 870 with Mike Roden today. Things are sounding very promising.

 

[BLewis]

Jerry,
I am glad to hear that SS followed up with you so quickly and thoroughly. Mikey I need to give you a call, probably Friday am. I want to hear all about the 870

 

[Captain Morgan]

The C-4 has 550 CFM. This is plenty of CFM to run two wands with glides on them.

Les, how far is that "550 cfm" measured from the machine?

Is there an industry standard for taking those measurements, ie; 100, 150, 250 ft from the machine? Manufacturers advertisements never say how far it's measured from the machine.

I've always wondered if the CFM's advertised are taken 10 ft from the machine or real world conditions 150 ft or more from the machine, on the second floor of a house with lots of bends and turns down the hall, down the stairs, over the cat, right turn at the front steps, left turn at the driveway...

550 CFM sounds great but it sucks if you are dual wanding ft expecting to get quick dry times with each hose run 200 ft from the machine and you are only pulling 180-200 CFM's per wand. You might as well run 2 single wand machines with 2.5 inch hose, right? Then you have the added expense of a 2nd van with insurance, registration, maintanence etc.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't...

Thanks,
Bill

 

[Leslie Judson Jones]

hey Les...

how much would it be to take my everst, plop it on a C-4 frame, and add the exchanger thingy you have on Cu's unit....then i would run my heater after.....


or should i say ill swap it, i just want the frame, coolant tubes, and an instruction book 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

and i had thought about stripping off the electronics and making it fire like a little giant....though everything seems to working fine now

Layton,

I don’t know if you’ve seen my videos on the reengineering of a complicated heat exchanger or not. I will post them for you to look at. If it was me I would just do a total reengineering like you will see me do in the videos, eliminating anything that could possibly give any problems including all the heat exchangers. I would add a #4 Little Giant Heater. The reason I would not leave any heat exchangers on the system is that the Little Giant Heater operates better with cold water entering it. About 20 years ago, we reengineered the heaters and moved the thermostats to the top. With cold water entering the heater, it fires immediately.

By not relying on the engine to produce any heat, you can actually turn the rpms of the engine way down, and extend the life of the engine and save considerable amounts of fuel.

Jeff Woods who owns the machine in the video is actually cleaning carpets at the lowest rpm setting, but his heat is better than it ever has been (240 sustained high flow). Even though Jeff has the additional cost for LP for the heater, it is offset by the lower rpms and lower fuel consumption of the engine.


l]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkBzsBKM0Usl]


l]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDu9ji19AK4l]


l]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OKTxCIcKDMl]























.

 

[Leslie Judson Jones]

The C-4 has 550 CFM. This is plenty of CFM to run two wands with glides on them.

Les, how far is that "550 cfm" measured from the machine?

Is there an industry standard for taking those measurements, ie; 100, 150, 250 ft from the machine? Manufacturers advertisements never say how far it's measured from the machine.

I've always wondered if the CFM's advertised are taken 10 ft from the machine or real world conditions 150 ft or more from the machine, on the second floor of a house with lots of bends and turns down the hall, down the stairs, over the cat, right turn at the front steps, left turn at the driveway...



550 CFM sounds great but it sucks if you are dual wanding ft expecting to get quick dry times with each hose run 200 ft from the machine and you are only pulling 180-200 CFM's per wand. You might as well run 2 single wand machines with 2.5 inch hose, right? Then you have the added expense of a 2nd van with insurance, registration, maintanence etc.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't...

Thanks,
Bill

Bill,

If 575 CFM will dual wand as is claimed by the heat exchange manufacturers, I don’t think you’ll know the difference between 550 and 575.

All manufacturers give CFM of the blower performance. One of the advantages of a Judson system is that we have always run unrestricted airflow. So basically our CFM number is where you connect the vacuum hose. Other manufacturers give the CFM of the blower, but due to bower heat exchangers and recovery tank blower filters plus the deliberate choking down of the blower to produce heat, the actual CFM is a lot lower.

I agree with you on running the two single-wand machines. That is the only way to have an actual dual wand system. There are a lot of advantages in having two independent systems. One advantage is redundancy in case one system goes down you can continue cleaning with the other. A system like this would have to be mounted in a box truck.

 

[floorguy]

hey Les...

how much would it be to take my everst, plop it on a C-4 frame, and add the exchanger thingy you have on Cu's unit....then i would run my heater after.....


or should i say ill swap it, i just want the frame, coolant tubes, and an instruction book 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

and i had thought about stripping off the electronics and making it fire like a little giant....though everything seems to working fine now

Layton,

I don’t know if you’ve seen my videos on the reengineering of a complicated heat exchanger or not. I will post them for you to look at. If it was me I would just do a total reengineering like you will see me do in the videos, eliminating anything that could possibly give any problems including all the heat exchangers. I would add a #4 Little Giant Heater. The reason I would not leave any heat exchangers on the system is that the Little Giant Heater operates better with cold water entering it. About 20 years ago, we reengineered the heaters and moved the thermostats to the top. With cold water entering the heater, it fires immediately.

By not relying on the engine to produce any heat, you can actually turn the rpms of the engine way down, and extend the life of the engine and save considerable amounts of fuel.

Jeff Woods who owns the machine in the video is actually cleaning carpets at the lowest rpm setting, but his heat is better than it ever has been (240 sustained high flow). Even though Jeff has the additional cost for LP for the heater, it is offset by the lower rpms and lower fuel consumption of the engine.


o]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkBzsBKM0Uso]


o]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDu9ji19AK4o]


o]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OKTxCIcKDMo]























.

I get all that and already have a screamer for propane burner......but i REALLY REALLY like that engine coolant heater you have on that reactor (is that right).....

because if i do furniture or the like, i dont want to worry about the heater cycling....which is partly why i wonder if i could make it run like a little giant, yet have the burner part stay the same....

and i always, unless LONG runs, or the hopeful dual wand, run it mid range....low setting is just to low for me

 

[cucu]

when does the 870 with the 59 blower come out to play

 

[BLewis]

Bump Jerry's Quetion. When does the SS 870 with the 59 blower come out to play?

Whoops, I just looked at the specs on the SS 870 now listing this
Gardner Denver 410 Trilobe blower 700 CFM 16 HG ?

 

[Bill Bruders]

The first of the 870 models shipped last week. After hours of testing the system it was determined that the 59 blower we had used on the original unit wasn't balanced well enough to sustain the demands of carpet cleaning. The vacuum performance under load was less than desirable as well. The Gardner Denver 410 blower we have decided on is the most powerful blower in Gardner Denver’s line of products designed for the carpet cleaning industry and one we have significant experience with. It will easily meet the demands of a multi tool (two wands and an upholstery tool) operation in terms of both heat and vacuum.

 

[joe harper]

The first of the 870 models shipped last week. After hours of testing the system it was determined that the 59 blower we had used on the original unit wasn't balanced well enough to sustain the demands of carpet cleaning. The vacuum performance under load was less than desirable as well. The Gardner Denver 410 blower we have decided on is the most powerful blower in Gardner Denver’s line of products designed for the carpet cleaning industry and one we have significant experience with. It will easily meet the demands of a multi tool (two wands and an upholstery tool) operation in terms of both heat and vacuum.

So, YOU ARE BUILDING A "PROCHEM EVEREST 650 HP"....NOW... :roll:

 

[daniel@procarpet]

How does a hx machine that drinks water benefit a cleaner with limited fresh water supply?

 

[Bill Bruders]

So, YOU ARE BUILDING A "PROCHEM EVEREST 650 HP"....NOW... :roll:[/quote]

No Joe we are not. the 650 doesn't hold a candle to the 870. we have 25% more CFM than an everest, far more heat and the ability to provide heat at high pressure. Sapphire does not copy other designs we set the standard for others to follow. somewhat amus

 

[joe harper]

How does a hx machine that drinks water benefit a cleaner with limited fresh water supply?

THEY ALL DRINK WATER....What are you saying...??????

ps..Buy a garden hose... :idea:

 

[Bill Bruders]

How does a hx machine that drinks water benefit a cleaner with limited fresh water supply?

Daniel I'm not sure if I understand your comment but our machines do not "dump" water into the waste tank if it is not used if that is your concern. You get use of every ounce of water you have available.

 

[daniel@procarpet]

Well a 60 gallon tank clearly is not big enough.

How does a hx machine that drinks water benefit a cleaner with limited fresh water supply?

THEY ALL DRINK WATER....What are you saying...??????

ps..Buy a garden hose... :idea:

 

[Ken Snow]

No 60 gal is not near enough- we go through 2 plus tanks a day in our butlers.

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