Upholstery Indicator Dye Mystery

[Walt]

Here's the deal: I cleaned this custom made sofa with a slightly acidic prespray then rinsed with plain water. It cleaned up great, but when it dried it had a pink cast.

I took a pillow home to test and was able to correct the color with a solution of water and ammonia. I returned and corrected the entire piece. Six months later the color has gone back to being pink.
The customer is not upset and has offered to pay me to attempt to correct it. I declined the payment, but would like to know if there is a permanent fix to this problem. And why the delayed shift?

Any ideas?

 

[John Buxton]

If its under a window maybe UV????

 

[Larry Cobb]

Walt;

Clean with a slightly alkaline low residue powder to leave a slight alkaline pH:
http://ccs5.com/zen/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=65&products_id=1197

Some dyes are notorious for turning pink in response to low pH.

I have seen it many times with rust removers.

What does the backing look like ?

Larry

 

[Desk Jockey]

Walt when you corrected it did you do it with spray bottle and towels or HWE the piece again?

Why the delay? Could it be the piece remained dry during the heating season and now with the increased humidity in the home the added moisture is reacting with the acid residue causing the change?

If you look at the back edge of the cushion the color appears to be unchanged. You either didn't clean the back edge or it's unchanged because the elevated humidity isn't able to afffect it because it's not exposed. ?

 

[Walt]

Walt when you corrected it did you do it with spray bottle and towels or HWE the piece again?

I sprayed it with the mixture and groomed it with an upholstery brush. No HWE.

Why the delay? Could it be the piece remained dry during the heating season and now with the increased humidity in the home the added moisture is reacting with the acid residue causing the change?

According to her, it seems to have gotten "pinker" over time. So, the humidity theory seems pretty good.

If you look at the back edge of the cushion the color appears to be unchanged. You either didn't clean the back edge or it's unchanged because the elevated humidity isn't able to afffect it because it's not exposed. ?

Probably cleaned it very quickly without any pre-spray.

What does the backing look like ?

It has some pink to it.

If its under a window maybe UV????

That's what I thought at first but the back is pushed up against the wall (not in the picture) and is pink as well.

I wouldn't mind re-cleaning it with a high ph cleaner, I just don't want to disappoint her 3 months if it shifts back.

 

[Desk Jockey]

Walt I think that they spray corrected the surface inbalance but there was still residue remaining. That residue was affect by the humidity change and caused it to change to pink.

I would think that if you HWE the piece on the alkaline side it would balance the acid and she should be good.

However I'm no upholstery guru, just a cleaner like you too.

You might check with Jim Pemberton or Scott Warrington as to their opinion.

 

[The Great Oz]

A pH shift left alone for a long time isn't always correctable, but Larry's right; ammonia is pretty much self-neutralizing so leaving the fabric alkaline is the trick.

 

[Jim Pemberton]

This problem is becoming more and more common. I just compared notes with Steve Poulos, and between the two of us, we've fielded more questions on this subject in the past couple of months than we have in our entire careers.

We're consulting with some people in the dye and chemical (raw chemical, not the stuff we sell or you buy) business to learn more.

Please let us know:

The name of the furniture manufacturer

The fiber content if you did any testing, even if just "Natural or Synthetic or Blend of Both"

What your acid prespray was exactly.

 

[Johnny]

I always thought pinking was caused by high ph, not acid. I've corrected pinking on nylon with acid rinse.

 

[Jim Pemberton]

Perhaps in some cases, but in the ones I've seen over the years, and especially lately, its always acid that causes it.

Steve Poulos has seen some fabrics turning blue from alkaline detergents, and one that has turned gold from an oxidizing agent.

 

[harryhides]

Steve is a visionary...........

 

[Jim Pemberton]

Late news...

Anyone who sees this problem:

See if the material came from Southeast Asia or China

 

[Walt]

Thanks for taking interest in my little conundrum.

Funny, I did a google image search on the fabric. The one that I thought looked exactly like it was from China.

She has no idea where the fabric is from. The upholsterer has since passed away.

I did a burn test and believe the fabric to be Rayon. Little ash. Smells like burning grass. Oily residue.

I plan on re-cleaning a pillow I have in my possession with a higher ph - good idea?

 

[Jim Pemberton]

Thanks Walt

As long as it's colorfast, alkaline agents probably won't harm it. The key will be doing what we usually want to avoid:

You need to leave a bit of a residue.

And just so you know:

Steve Poulos has seen alkaline detergents turn fabric blue.

I had a carpet do that about 30 years ago. Alkaline detergent changed it from gray to blue.
I treated it with an acid and it turned pink....then an alkaline and it went back to blue.

I could convince the customer that this new exciting characteristic of her carpet was a good thing!

 

[Walt]

Isn't that how indicator dye is supposed to work? The color is determined by the ph. It's used to get a very specific hue. And the trick is to correct using the exact ph.

Someone else told me that.

 

[Jim Pemberton]

They are used for pH paper and other scientific purposes.

They should not be used in carpet or upholstery. If you can cut a sliver of the fabric from the hem or seam, please send it to me:

Pembertons
5825 Smithfield St
McKeesport PA. 15135
Attn Jim Pemberton

 

[prestige cleaner]

so some blameing acid residue, would it make sense to fresh water rinse fabrics after using ph cleaners of 7 on the upholstery.

 

[Walt]

Jim,

I really appreciate you taking interest in this. I'll send out a sample today. If you it would help I could either send the whole pillow or get a sample of the unadulterated fabric. She has a couple of yards of it.

Thanks

 

[Jim Pemberton]

Thank you, this will be VERY helpful Walt.

 

[sifeaf]

Is the fabric white or off white?

 

[Walt]

Neither.

It's a pale green with a slightly darker pattern.

 

[Ron Werner]

and a pink hue :roll:

this is what this board was meant for!! Love it.