Vacuum and Heat How much is to much ?

[GeneMiller]

There's a lot of talk about heat and vacuum. But how much do we really need? When I mounted my machine to the new truck, I had 270. If you run a high enough flow you'll have steam at the wand. My understanding is, large volumes of water cleans over steam. I hooked up a digital thermometer at the wand at the end of 150' and I had 220. I had to make a few changes on the machine to lower the temp.

Also, how much vacuum do we really need? At some point the wand is impossible to move. I understand the need for extra vacuum for really long runs. It's also neccessary for dual setups but for standard setups it seems like a complete waste. I think our male egos are being used against us, so wer're forced to spend more of our hard earned money.Mine is bigger then yours.
Gene

 

[DavidVB]

Carpet cleaners with egos???

I agree with you. We ran Powermatics for 11 years and I rarely ran it up higher than 220 ATM. The area we serve is pretty well off, so we don't do many nasties. We primarily clean homes and office buildings so I can't speak to what kind of heat is needed in restaurants. If we had a trouble area in an office, I would bring in the Cimex rather than turn the heat up.

The Powermatic has a 45 blower. I have a Genesis 56 now. I like the extra vacuum. I don't know what it would be like to try and move a wand with a 56 blower without a glide. Glides have opened the door to bigger blowers and improved dry times. How big is needed? I'll ask that if and when I need another machine someday. From what I'm hearing some are getting better vacuum from the 45 than I think I did.

 

[royalkid]

your all wasting your time...you need hot BUBBLES...that's where it's at. :roll:

 

[Kevin. McCreary]

your all wasting your time...you need hot BUBBLES...that's where it's at. :roll:

HACK!

 

[dealtimeman]

in my limited but thorough research i have found the 200-220 atw is perfect to clean with but 200 atw with a 12 flow transfers more energy to the carpet ,more hot water and therefore better or more efficient flushing of the carpet. but if you do not have enough cfm at the wand this would flood or overwet the carpet and pad thats why i like my 59 blower enough suck for whatever you need to do. i also clean at 550-650 psi regularly unless i am dual wanding.

 

[GeneMiller]

I always have my pressure set at 600 unless I'm cleaning upholstery. I have a clear tube at the wand handle mostly for a gimmick but it allows easy access to check how much water is getting left behind. I also check ever job in random spots to make sure that to much water isn't getting left behind.

Gene

 

[Mike Draper]

your all wasting your time...you need hot BUBBLES...that's where it's at. :roll:

We're not talking about a "cheap, scrape the dirt off the top surface cleaning here".

 

[Able 1]

As long as you are running a quality glide I don't believe you can have too much vac.. I have ran 2.5 to the wand and it's awesome!!! Kind of a pita but shows that you can't have too much. Now I run a 25' whip of 2" on almost all jobs.

As far as heat I would like to have more (I would like to be around 230-250) for resturants, and a LG might be an up grade I'll look into for next winter. Cleaning resi I really don't think heat is that much of an issue...

 

[GeneMiller]

Keith,
Remember that where the heat counts is at the carpet not at the machine. If you have above 212 at the wand then you are no longer flushing the carpet with hot water. This is HWE not steam cleaning and there is a reason for that. Hot water flushes the gook from the carpet , steam will not. I live in south florida where the drive way heats up my hose, if you live where it's cold then you need more heat at the machine because of radiant heat loss. We both still only need 211 max at the wand or we are steam cleaning.

Gene

 

[Out of Character - 0]

So if I boil a pot of water, when it gets to 212 I'll have a pot of steam to right?

Water under pressure will boil at a higher temp, and any water-soluble, non volatile substance will raise the boiling point of water (detergent).

Let's say you get live steam at the wand, what happens when you pull the trigger, does it all go up in a cloud? On our wands the steam is recovered by the vacuum, if it wasn't I'd see it right? So if 2 gpm of steam is sprayed and recovered by the wand, and the slot is on the carpet, the steam must have gone through the carpet. So why wouldn't 2gpm of water that has been expanded, and sprayed at a higher pressure due to the heat through the fibers "flush"? Especially if that steam is cooling as it sprays and as it travels through the fiber, cooling steam creates water.

230-240 atw is sweet, and attainable. If you go above that your hoses, fittings, and valves life span will be compromised beyond a reasonable point and replacement will be a consistent requirement.

 

[GeneMiller]

The pot of water never gets above 212. Yes you can go above 212 under pressure but the moment it is released from the pressure it turns to steam. I'm not sure if the detergent will raise the boiling point or not but haven't you ever wondered why it's called HWE. It's easy to produce steam at the wand. Any truck mount can accomplish that, it's called a burner. It isn't necessary and totally undesirable because the weight of the water is what flushes out dirt. Steam just won't do it. It's just basic chemistry.

Gene

 

[floorguy]

Your wrong gene....

while i dont know the exact temp at the jet, think of it this way..

if it was steam then you would go through the volume of water we do...

if it was steam, when you lifted your wand and sprayed it would hiss a helluva lot more then it does

if it was steam, you couldnt put your hand under it (if you could stand the heat)and get much liquid..


My burner has a shut off of 250. Now when i tested it with a gauge at my trigger, @ 100' of hose it read 240 ATW, so i lost 10 degrees in that stretch.. But when it was doing it, you noticed a HUGE noise difference as it was changing from liquid to vapor..never truly did. But it was getting ready to..

So from that, 250ish is where it starts going to steam ATW....

alot has to do with jet size to

also steamers run @ around 315 in their boilers

 

[Nate The Great]

Where is Frankie Perez with his Genesis when you need him?

Stupid heat @ 280+ atw. Could smell the hose cooking, but it did clean the carpet. People was just afraid of it as was I.

 

[GeneMiller]

I could hear the difference at the wand when I started pushing steam. I had to cut the heat at the machine when I'm single wanding it. I'm sure the detergent changes the boiling point some. My point was and still is you want the hottest water possible before steam. To each his own.

Gene

 

[Bill Soukoreff]

The pot of water never gets above 212. Yes you can go above 212 under pressure but the moment it is released from the pressure it turns to steam. I'm not sure if the detergent will raise the boiling point or not but haven't you ever wondered why it's called HWE. It's easy to produce steam at the wand. Any truck mount can accomplish that, it's called a burner. It isn't necessary and totally undesirable because the weight of the water is what flushes out dirt. Steam just won't do it. It's just basic chemistry.

Gene

That's totally false information. You need to experiment with larger jets and flow and THEN report back.

I clean everyday at 240 to 250 and NEVER get steam. The tube of the wand get very, very hot. I have to cut off a few few of parker hose every 6 months and that is with 12 ft of 300F hose right off the heater to the quick connect. I was getting steam with my stair tool, so I put on a larger jet. When you get the right combo of heat and flow you can go days without reaching for your favorite spotters and forget about ever having to "boost" your pre-spray. That's when life as a carpet cleaner is good.

 

[Farenheit251]

Bill is right. You have pelenty enough machine to be running 10 flow at a min and 15 would be better. You will be transferring much more heat to the fiber and it won't vaporize. It doesn't matter what your water temp is-it matters how hot you get the fiber. I love candle wax in my rentals. I make an extra $10 for moving my wand over it a couple extra times.

 

[GeneMiller]

Brian,

I did some real world testing with the heat. I turned my micro switch back up to 270. Under normal cleaning because of the radiant heat loss I never exceeded 220 at the wand except in some very rare circumstances. I do my dry stroke immediately after 5 or 6 cleaning strokes. I was at the end of 150 ' of solution. I could change my jets out and get a higher flow and consequently higher temps. I've never considered that because I figure the manufactures spend time and energy figuring out the correct flow rate. That, could be completely wrong. When I finished my test and every job for that matter I cool my machine down and when it's 270 at the machine my 10' hose will blow out almost straight stream until it cools down. It is just water, I have the chem turned off. I never thought to test it with chem until just now, but you can see the steam with very little water coming out until the temp drops. So my conclusion is you were right , you won't get live steam at the wand, at least under normal cleaning conditions. I will test on Tue. what happens when you add the chemical in when I am cooling the machine. I'm curious to see if it raises the boiling point. It would be easy to test on the stove if I can find that candy thermometer.

 

[floorguy]

uhhh yea the mfg tested it... Down to whats the cheapest and easiest for them....

why do you think they choke back the plumbing, and cause restriction??

they cant get heat with out cutting the flow back... Them exchangers arent going to handle a 12 or 15 + flow...

 

[GeneMiller]

Doug,

So, tell me what you really think. I've had both types and I prefer the heat exchanger. I don't like having to pay for the extra fuel to heat the water. My machine will hold what ever temp you pick with a single wand and I can't ask for more then that. I would have to look back a number of years to see what I spent on propane but I remember it was quite a bit. I like never having to worry about running out. If the machine runs you have heat. I don't think I will ever go back to a burner, but I will never say never. I had a machine that the heat exchangers kept leaking because of a bad design and I got tired of taking it apart to braze. Getting it back together was a nightmare. I cut them out and added a burner. I don't remember which number burner it was but I think it was a number 3 and it couldn't keep up with my rotovac. This machine will.

Gene

 

[floorguy]

Ok so what about a turbo?? will it hold heat on that??

I love the propane heat, i dont mind the hassle of gettin the tanks filled, i keep 2 tanks on me and when 1 runs out i know in the next week or so to go fill up...

Now with that being said...I would like a small exchanger, for those times with furniture, or other small flow things (my burner is flow fired). Or i would like one to give it a "kick" in the winter time.

I know the what the perfect machine i would like is..but for right now cant afford it..so we will wait..

 

[Greenie]

Brian,

I did some real world testing with the heat. I turned my micro switch back up to 270. Under normal cleaning because of the radiant heat loss I never exceeded 220 at the wand except in some very rare circumstances.

That is a pretty big drop in ATW temp, and illustrates a good point....you were using 1/4" steelbraided hose.

I do my dry stroke immediately after 5 or 6 cleaning strokes. I was at the end of 150 ' of solution. I could change my jets out and get a higher flow and consequently higher temps. I've never considered that because I figure the manufactures spend time and energy figuring out the correct flow rate. That, could be completely wrong.

And it is.

You freely admit changing your jets to a larger flow jetting will yield HIGHER temps...but you don't do it?
Carpet cleaners are a funny bunch.

btw: If you run Four 95 015 jets now, I challenge you to run four 95 03 jets on tue and report abck what MAX temp you can hold with "your" cleaning style, obviously it will be lower at the machine, but I bet you clean faster and are just as dry (glided wand), and you will get stuff clean in ONE pass that previously took TWO.
That is all I should have to say right there...

 

[GeneMiller]

Greenie,

Yes I am using steel braided hose and frankly I didn't know there was any other type. The temp. at the wand is because of my cleaning style and because of radiant heat loss. As far as going to large jets I'll answer with a little true story. When I first got my rotovac I tested it in my testing lab. My garage. I tested it ever which way to see what would happen including just letting it run in one spot dry. The point is when I tested the cleaning pressure 300 recommended by the manufacurer everything was fine but when I tried it at 600 the water went right through the carpet. Since then I pretty much go by the manufacture recommendations. Before this board I had never heard of anyone increasing their jet size so I never thought to test it. My first thoughts are that it will go through the carpet I test everything and I mean everything. I pickup rugs, carpets and cushions out of peoples garbage and test different techniques. I gladly will take the challenge and report back te result. Good, bad, or indifferent.

Gene

 

[Able 1]

I think its all about the angle of the dangle... :wink: I ran that 360 at 500psi and thought the waterclaw was my best option for extraction. :shock:

 

[floorguy]

yes the rotovac goes right through the carpet...so does any other wand thats angles STRAIGHT down..

what type of wand ya got??

 

[Greenie]

FloorGuy nailed it.

And I won't go into the fine details of a flood jet rotovac 3/4" off the carpet pointed straight down with a 1.375" chokepoint for extraction.....let's just settle on the Devil is in the Details.

Also...let's not confuse Pressure with Flow...Increasing your 1.5s to 03s will not increase pressure, actually it'll probably drop at the tool.

I did mention glides.

 

[Farenheit251]

Gene, while your doing tests bucket test for one minute with the rotovac and then wand. A lot of the reason roto tools clean so well is higher flow. With high flow on a Greenhorn you are going to get similar results ,faster production and better dry time control and that rotovac is going to wind up on Ebay.

 

[Ron Werner]

running a 47 Roots, 600psi with 15 flow, 2.5" hose with 50ft of 2" whip, 4ht
I has enough vac, enough pressure and flow, and enough heat.

 

[GeneMiller]

Ron,

It's not that I doubt you after seeing your video I have a lot of respect for you. The problem for me is I'm not a sheep. I only do things I know and understand. The rotovac cleans great and leaves the carpet drier everytime if I run it at 300. I doubt most people go to the extremes to actually test their changes they just follow because someone said so. I will test the larger jets and see what happens.

Gene

 

[Mike Draper]

Gene, I ran a RV-360 and put over a thousand hours on it before I finally let it go. I bought a Greenhorn and never looked back, However, I do pre-scrub most every residential before I wand it. My dry times now are so much faster it makes me look like a hack before. I was also running 2.5" hose on the Rv-360 as well and running it at 300psi with dry passes.

 

[Ron Werner]

Ron,

It's not that I doubt you after seeing your video I have a lot of respect for you. The problem for me is I'm not a sheep. I only do things I know and understand. The rotovac cleans great and leaves the carpet drier everytime if I run it at 300. I doubt most people go to the extremes to actually test their changes they just follow because someone said so. I will test the larger jets and see what happens.

Gene

I'm much the same way Gene. I've watched the guys talk about high flow and superheated water and the glides etc. Took me a while to change my systems.

When the 2.5" hose came out, it was a no brainer for me. I had already opened up my old system with 3" piping and hose a year or more before.
The super heated water? I'm more moderate on that. I prefer about 220-240 MAX at the truck. My old truck was showing only 190-200 at the truck and I was getting good dry times and cleaning.
The greenhorn wand and glide has made pushing the wand much easier, and it has improved my dry times. I was at 15 flow, went back to 10 flow to save water and increase heat, but had a couple simple wicking call backs, so I went back to 15 flow.
To me, the best thing I can do for a carpet is remove the dry soil prior to getting it wet. Makes the steam cleaning much easier.