why doesn't tm manufactures use cogged belts?

idreadnought

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So the only toothed belt (like a timing belt on a car) I have ever seen on a truckmount is hydramasters overdrive unit. I have one and that thing lasts forever. So why doesn't the manufactures use them to drive the blowers on slide ins? The most common issues I hear about on machines are the belts. Sapphire scientific even modifies the frame and puts a fan in the machine to help cool them. Wouldn't it make sense or am I missing something?
 

Duane Oxley

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Gates cogged belts is ALL we use.

"Cogs" do get better traction and cool more efficiently.

GatesXBelts.jpg
 

Doug Cox

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Powerclean used Gates Tri Power belts and also offered Gates Predator belts which are a wrapped belt. I switched to the Predator belts because I had a set of the tri power belts break and it make quite a mess in my van. The Predator belts won't break because they have a kevlar band in the belt and they stand up to heat better.
 

Duane Oxley

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We have no noticeable problems with them. But then again, our systems aren't enclosed like PowerClean's were, so they don't retain heat like they did.
 

Jim Martin

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the cogged belts in Duanes picture are cogged V belts that are used on smooth pulleys....the last almost twice as long as the smooth belts....because they don't bend like the solid belts and they run cooler...

the timing belts ( like on a car ) kind of the same thing...but the pulleys also have the cogs in them for the belts to seat in....normally these are used to keep everything in time with out slipping....not real sure this would be a good application for our machines...I would question how long the cogs on the belt would hold up with the torque when you first turn it on....
 

steve g

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never had a belt issue on my prochem legend. machine has 2500 hours and its on its 3 rd set of belts. the belts are also solid and non cogged. BUT I inspect them often and if I see signs of heavy cracking they get replaced. as long as the pulleys are lined up and you actually change the belts BEFORE they break its never a problem
 

ACE

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Connor said:
Why don't they?? Cos dey cheap.

Yep, All of them have top of the line engines, pumps and blowers. Then they find cheep electronics, hoses, brass, valves and belts and use aluminum tanks.

I just changed you the sacrificial anodes in my steamway and attempted to coat the tank with epoxy last night :x .
 

Larry Cobb

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idreadnought said:
So the only toothed belt (like a timing belt on a car) I have ever seen on a truckmount is hydramasters overdrive unit. I have one and that thing lasts forever. So why doesn't the manufactures use them to drive the blowers on slide ins? The most common issues I hear about on machines are the belts. Sapphire scientific even modifies the frame and puts a fan in the machine to help cool them. Wouldn't it make sense or am I missing something?

Timing belts are not used because of blower seizures.

That condition could damage the the starter or more expensive belt.

Larry
 

Shane T

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Larry said:
Timing belts are not used because of blower seizures.

That condition could damage the the starter or more expensive belt.

Larry

That may be their reasoning but I don't think its warranted. I had a blower stick one time in 30 years but have gone through more belts than I can count. I would gladly gamble with the slim chance of damage to something else. I believe Harley Davidson uses cogged belts and pulleys on their primary drive system. There is a lot torque there and are still very reliable.
 

idreadnought

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hydramaster does use them on their overdrive direct driven unit. However on the off chance that the blower does seize the primary belt on the engine would slip I suppose. As far as the starter damage when a blower is seized the v belts would still prevent the engine from turning over.

However if the only reason they do not is the off chance of the blower seizing then I would rather take that risk.

As far as cost I don't believe the costs are much greater to use the toothed belts.
 

idreadnought

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ACE said:
Connor said:
Why don't they?? Cos dey cheap.

Yep, All of them have top of the line engines, pumps and blowers. Then they find cheep electronics, hoses, brass, valves and belts and use aluminum tanks.

I just changed you the sacrificial anodes in my steamway and attempted to coat the tank with epoxy last night :x .


I coated a couple of tanks. worked pretty good actually. I used a product called coal tar epoxy. Only available online. Before I coated it I pressure washed it extremely well and then I even etched it with oven cleaner to make sure there wasn't any bonding issues. None of it ever peeled and except for the area directly beneath the vac inlet where the water comes in all of it is still there. As an added bonus the tank cleans up very easy now.
 
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A little confusion about belts in this thread. Toothed belts are designated by an X as the 2nd letter after the "ABC" size designation. Nothing like Milodan type timed belts.
 

Jimbo

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Timed belts Have been tried in the past...but they stopped using them because of vibration problems...
 
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To expand on Jimbo's answer.


I've used them (Synchronous belts, Timing style belts) on a couple of TM designs, against my better judgement. Higher-ups in the company (TM Manufacturer) insisted we try them for the "cool factor". It was incorrectly reasoned that if they are OK for a drag car supercharger, then they would be equally well suited for a TM. Well, a drag car supercharger, even though a roots type design, is a completely different scenario. First, the engine on a drag car is eight cylinders and the blower is a helical lobe, and the engine has a harmonic balancer to boot. All contribute to a far lower torsional vibration potential with virtually no critical speeds. Cutting to the chase, the experiment with a two cylinder engine driving a traditional TM blower using a timing-type belt, was a failure. But it served to confirm all that we had accumulated in knowledge building direct drive coupled units.

The problem with the belts on a TM, is that the blower is a straight double or tri-lobe design. The operative word here is straight. Secondly, the engine used on a slide in is ordinarily no more than 4 cylinders, and sometimes a really nasty 60 degree v-twin. Both of these factors require a transmission device (belts, coupler, etc) to have a requisite torsional resiliency to absorb the vibrations created by both the uneven cyclical torque of an engine with such characteristics, and the uneven cyclical torque at the driven blower. These torque impulses occur at the point in a cycle wherein the engine is at max torque and minimum torque during each revolution. In essence, the engine's torque output looks like a sine wave that corresponds to the power output of the engine during a combustion cycle. The blower has a similar characteristic in inducing rotational (torsional) vibration during a single revolution. Both of these characteristics can be graphed and measured by the unit called the system "rotational inertia". The interaction of the rotation inertia for both the driven and the driver can be used to calculate the required torsional resiliency of the coupler.

Traditional v-belts have remarkable torsional resiliency, and can soak up quite a bit of the impulses without fatiguing and failure. Certain direct couplers also can often be used, if the "critical speed" is far away from any speeds the equipment will be used. Often flyweight itself can be used to balance a direct drive system. Where we see repeated failures of direct drive couplers is often where these factors have not been accounted for, and not due to the HP carrying capacity of the coupler itself. Often you see "newbies" make a direct drive machine, and have coupler problems. They seek to solve the problem by doubling or tripling the coupler HP size, and sometimes find it works. Unbeknownst to themselves is that the additional flyweight of the larger coupler "solved" the problem, not the capacity.

Here's a short primer on what torsional vibration is: http://www.epi-eng.com/mechanical_engineering_basics/torsional_vibration_intro.htm

Anyway, to use "timing style" belts is way too stiff. You will find that if you use them singly as a drive component for a 2-4 cylinder engine driving a straight cut lobe blower, the result is very short life of the teeth on the belt, and often you get blower knocking too. Blower knocking is a phenomenon of too stiff a drive, as the high rotational vibration causes the blower lobes to be "jerked" rather harshly, wherein contact of one lobe is made with another.

Now, how is it that HydraMaster can use a cogged timing-belt for the jack shaft on their CDS machine? Simple really. The primary drive belt is a long poly-vee belt that "soaks up" or absorbs any interactive vibration of the driven and the driver components, alleviating any stress that would otherwise be transmitted, creating a very attenuated sine wave of vibration at certain speeds. Moreover, the engine that is used on a CDS is much smoother running, with much lower differential torque peaks through a rotation. And the engine has a harmonic balancer. How many slide-in TM's have a harmonic balancer?

We also don't see any chain-drive units for the same reasons as a the timing belt won't work well on a 2-4 cylinder engine running a straight cut lobe blower.

Now, I see that that some manufacturers are dabbling with helical lobe blowers. This may provide an opportunity to revisit torsional stiff transmission components. As long as the torsional vibration is low enough for the belt's ability to absorb without quick fatiguing of the belt's materials of construction, it is possible that this type of belt can be economically feasible. Such feasibility includes the costs of harmonic balancing or additional flyweight as necessary.
 

Shane T

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Great stuff Shawn. I have asked about this before but have never gotten this kind of explanation. Thanks
 

idreadnought

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yes thank you very much shawn. That is a wonderful explaination that makes complete sense to me. I actually had a gut feeling that there was a very good reason beyond just cost.
 

AshleyMckendree

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X2 on the "gates green" belts recommended by Vawter.

I took his advice a few years ago and have not had ONE pair even begin to show signs of wear or stretch.

Gates even makes a green serpentine belt that will go to hell and back without wearing down.
 

Erik

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Jimbo said:
Timed belts Have been tried in the past...but they stopped using them because of vibration problems...


Fmi used one on my Vortex. The belt was to tight with no adjustment. To say the least, the blower didn't last long. :cry:
 

Vivers

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I have used both toothed and solid and the solid for us last long and don't make a mess in the event of a breakage. I love my Prochem Apex machines however they are tough on belts as the exhaust runs right by them and drys them out. The new Apex GT addressed that issue of course after I have these two.
 

Jimbo

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Thank you so very much Shawn...That's what I was trying to say!!

I was wondering about Dynamic Balancing, Shawn...and you mentioned flyweights...

check this out in the aircraft industry...

http://www.powermasterengines.com/propbalance.html

What do you think, Shawn...could this be applied to truckmounts??

What do you think, ex A&P mechanic Scott Noble?
 

Becker

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Still so many don't get it..

Slotted belt on a slotted flywheel or pulley, the belt acts as a chain on a bike. The pulleys are like a bikes sprockets.

Camshaft-Timing-Belt-Repairs.jpg


Slotted or solid belts on normal pulleys are pretty much the same in function and are not gear type drive like a timing belt.
 

Ron Werner

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I am replacing my AX toothed belts after 4yrs/ 1900hrs. Nothing wrong with them but they got oil soaked from an oil leak I had. Only reason I'm changing them. Don't require a lot of re-tensioning either.
 

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