With so many urine products- Which one really works?

#31
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I was told by Jim, the guy who owns (or used to) Bio-Kleen that the difference between the enzyme style products is:
  1. How many kind of enzymes cultures are used
  2. And enzyme count. (meaning how many per oz or whatever).
According to him, their live enzyme product (bacout) had more of both. Hard to check and know with certainty, as no manufacturer that I know provides these numbers.

Maybe one of the reps here can chip in.

The kind of enzyme is important. The most common type for urine removal break down protein. So there may not be a lot of differences. Some products have a blend of types.

Enzyme count is also important. However even more important IMO is enzyme only versus bacteria / enzyme combination. If you have only enzymes, there is whatever amount the manufacturer puts in. If you have living bacteria present, they can be producing enzymes, feeding on the organic material, growing, multiplying, making more enzymes and so forth. Under the best conditions, the bacteria / enzyme count can double every 20 minutes. A regular little enzyme factory going.
 
#33
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Short response. Busy schedule for a few days.

Enzymes are never live. They are simply chemicals that speed up the breakdown of organic material without being changed themselves. This is similar to a catalyst in a chemical reaction. Because they are not alive. They can't be killed. Some work better in one environment than another. So, the reaction may be faster/ slower if the pH is right or wrong. Usually closer to neutral is better, at least not extremes of pH.

Enzymes are also allergens for many people. In a liquid, the enzymes don't go anywhere except where you apply them. In a powder, little particles of dust with enzymes can drift in the air. So, enzymes in powdered formulations are usually encapsulated. Like the chocolate in M&M candy, a thin shell around them. It takes some time once this gets in water to dissolve. So, powdered enzymes start slow. They have to get out of the shell first. For many cleaners who don't give their product a lot of dwell time, the enzymes do little or no work. but they still have marketing value.

Enzymes have a preferred target or material(s) that they interact with. In cleaning products, this is usually proteins. Wool is a protein fiber. Wool is hard to break down and digest. So most enzyme cleaning products will work on some easier to "digest" protein before they start on wool. Courser wool and short fibers of wool will break down a little easier or at least damage would show sooner. So, at least in theory, it is easier for enzymes to damage the poor quality wool.

In practice, the damage done is rare and slight. One would need to be a real expert with a good magnifying glass to see damage from enzymes when used as they should be. Leave it on a long time and you might get some damage. Do even a little damage to a very valuable wool rug and it can be a major head ache. But for most cleaners, enzymes won't do any noticeable damage to wool. But you may not want to take any chances.
 
#35
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But the real concern is that "RTU" non-existent .....dilution ratio of most if not all of those enzyme deo products.

$$$$$$$$$$$$

Dilute them as much as you wish. They will still work, only slower since the concentration of bacteria and enzymes has been diluted.

It would be a simple thing to put dilute 1:1 or 1:4 or 1:8 or whatever on the label. It just would not work as well or as quickly. Is the time saved worth the money? If you don't think so, dilute away.
 
#40
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The kind of enzyme is important. The most common type for urine removal break down protein. So there may not be a lot of differences. Some products have a blend of types.

Enzyme count is also important. However even more important IMO is enzyme only versus bacteria / enzyme combination. If you have only enzymes, there is whatever amount the manufacturer puts in. If you have living bacteria present, they can be producing enzymes, feeding on the organic material, growing, multiplying, making more enzymes and so forth. Under the best conditions, the bacteria / enzyme count can double every 20 minutes. A regular little enzyme factory going.
these are frequently confused , or used interchangeably, I have found. enzymes vs. live bacteria. Often can not get a straight answer when inquiring about about which is in a certain product.
 
#41
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I actually came on to ask about any experience with the Unleashed product.

I got some a while back, and tried it out again yesterday.:hopeless: Was somewhat let down both times.

Both times it was very much under my control, and I was really trying to give it a good chance.
 
#42
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Ofer,
We only use enzymes in a couple of powdered pre-sprays that are always extracted. It is an encapsulated (health and formula reasons) protease enzyme. Everything else in the formula will do what the enzymes do. I believe its addition is only necessary in jobs where there is a need for a cleaning boost. Generally, I think enzymes are overrated in pre-sprays, especially when most do not give the pre-sprays enough dwell time. Liquid enzymes, great for laundry, with a 30 minute wash and rinse cycle, not so much for our industry.

For urine products (Bio Modifier, Bio Charge) we put a blend of wide spectrum bacteria approved in Canada so we can export to Canada. The wide spectrum produces a wide variety of enzymes dependent on the organic source material. The bacteria multiplies and produces the right enzyme in the right amount to dissolve the organic source material. We design the Bio Modifier with the bacteria load being on the verge of activity. This allows it to go active the minute it is put on a moist surface. This starts at a higher level so that its work can be done overnight in most cases. You can dilute it with water and get the same results, but it will take longer. Bio Charge has a higher percentage of bacteria and needs to be diluted at least 1 to 3 to go active.

As a chemist it pains me to say that the most important part of dealing with urine stains is flushing with water during the extraction process. The Water Claw is ideal for carpet and the Rug Sucker is ideal for area rugs for extraction. Use of these tools with enough water will make any chemical pre-treatment work better. I like to use the bacteria products after the flushing with the goal to get them into the pad by injecting or gravity for them to deal with the contaminants that were not removed by flushing.

Ofer,
Bacteria create simple enzymes without the strength to dissolve wool. Enzymes created by manufacturers can be much stronger and I would be wary of using them on wool. I believe Wool Safe has approved a couple of products with bacteria ingredients if I remember correctly.
 
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#43
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I've found that the acid/peroxide treatment works 10times better than the enzyme treatment

I just don't see how enzymes in an alkaline form can break down the salts in dried urine

Plus, I've gotten fewer return callbacks with acid/peroxide than enzyme treatment.

Enzymes should stay as a post treatment to help the odor, nothing more
 
#44
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Ofer,
We only use enzymes in a couple of powdered pre-sprays that are always extracted. It is an encapsulated (health and formula reasons) protease enzyme. Everything else in the formula will do what the enzymes do. I believe its addition is only necessary in jobs where there is a need for a cleaning boost. Generally, I think enzymes are overrated in pre-sprays, especially when most do not give the pre-sprays enough dwell time. Liquid enzymes, great for laundry, with a 30 minute wash and rinse cycle, not so much for our industry.

For urine products (Bio Modifier, Bio Charge) we put a blend of wide spectrum bacteria approved in Canada so we can export to Canada. The wide spectrum produces a wide variety of enzymes dependent on the organic source material. The bacteria multiplies and produces the right enzyme in the right amount to dissolve the organic source material. We design the Bio Modifier with the bacteria load being on the verge of activity. This allows it to go active the minute it is put on a moist surface. This starts at a higher level so that its work can be done overnight in most cases. You can dilute it with water and get the same results, but it will take longer. Bio Charge has a higher percentage of bacteria and needs to be diluted at least 1 to 3 to go active.

As a chemist it pains me to say that the most important part of dealing with urine stains is flushing with water during the extraction process. The Water Claw is ideal for carpet and the Rug Sucker is ideal for area rugs for extraction. Use of these tools with enough water will make any chemical pre-treatment work better. I like to use the bacteria products after the flushing with the goal to get them into the pad by injecting or gravity for them to deal with the contaminants that were not removed by flushing.

Ofer,
Bacteria create simple enzymes without the strength to dissolve wool. Enzymes created by manufacturers can be much stronger and I would be wary of using them on wool. I believe Wool Safe has approved a couple of products with bacteria ingredients if I remember correctly.
Tom,
essentially, are BioCharge, and Bio Modifier the same? except the Bio Charge is more concentrated? Can be used interchangeably? I know BioCharge would recomnend different water based deodorizers to use in conjunction.
 
#45
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They use the same bacteria strain at different concentrations, but Bio Modifier has some additional surfactant, non re-soiling polymer, odor encapsulant and fragrance. Bio Charge has only the bacteria strain and surfactant.
 
#46
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They use the same bacteria strain at different concentrations, but Bio Modifier has some additional surfactant, non re-soiling polymer, odor encapsulant and fragrance. Bio Charge has only the bacteria strain and surfactant.
Tom, you're making it seem like urine removal is so complicated. It's very simple, just:
spray acid,
dwell,
extract acid,
spray alkaline prespray with 8oz powdered peroxide activated in it
HWE
Post spray with enzyme if you're worried about any odor

The other method for heavy urine:
5gallon bucket with OSR and flood extractor


Those should be the only two methods stressed in the classes. When was the liquid enzyme method first brought in? I'm still pissed at how many callbacks I received from that type of treatment.
 
#47
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About 5 years ago we did a video and marketing push about pre-treating with acid neutralizer, flushing with water claw and injecting bacteria into the pad in worst areas as our standard recommended system. You can make it as simple as you want as long as flushing with additional water (free) and Water Claw is included on the worst areas.

Pet Zone with Hydrocide is our version of OSR . Urine Neutralizer also with Hydrocide is our standard acid pre-treatment. Since the alkaline salts are derived from ammonia the acid reduces the pH of ammonia. If you are able to reduce to below pH 9 the ammonia (11.8 pH) odor goes away. The Hydrocide works on odors from bad bacteria. Both of these systems can be your only pet system for most jobs with proper flushing. The powdered peroxide with your normal cleaner may be enough for one time accidents or any minor staining that probably does not need extra treatments. The bacteria products I would use on the worst areas getting in the pad level after everything else is done as insurance to reduce return trips. Any remaining stains (polyesters will not stain)can be spritzed on top of fiber with a peroxide based urine stain remover. Some customers very sensitive to the odor may want a topical treatment of a hydrocide or other odor encapsulant.

It could be that you treat and flush ten spots. Clean the nylon carpet with minor spots being taken care of by the peroxide added to the cleaner. Inject bacteria in the three worst spots. Spritz urine stain remover on one spot with visible stain remaining. The number and type of treatments necessary could vary with each job.

It is not rocket science, but every job has different variables like carpet type, type of pet, volume of urine, customer's level of tolerance, etc. Develop your system recognizing that you will have jobs where you will have to think outside the box. These variety of reasons are why this is one of the most frequent technical discussions on bulletin boards and will continue to be as long as there are pets in the house. and new carpet cleaners on the boards.
 
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#48
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Good description Tom.

Our solution on Pet Urine is Odor Attack (powder with 3 main ingredients).

1. It starts with a strong Oxidizer for stain & odor removal.

2. We add an actual Enzyme that is compatible with the Oxidizer (most are not).

It is not a bacterial product that slowly produces an enzyme
(which requires the 30 minutes that Tom mentioned)

3. Finally, we use an Effervescing agent to suspend the entire lifting process,
and allow the complete rinsing that Tom also recommends.

A Water Claw with a separate hot water Gunjet is an ideal rinse process that we like to use
(Interlink photo)

ac004a.jpg
 
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#49
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O
S
R

if OSR cant handle it, then it probably should be replaced. Ive gone as strong as 7 scoups in a 5qt hydro-force 4:1, youll get some sludge in the bottom just gotta keep shaking it up.

I spray it heavy and mixed very hot, as hot as possible without creating a volcano. Then water claw the really bad spots, and wand the rest 12 flow with 240 degrees.

if that doesnt do it then the carpet needs to be ripped out and the pad is probably disgusting
 
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#51
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The Dymon product is a bacterial spore solution that produces an enzyme when in contact with a food source.

This process takes about 30 min. or so to begin working. This is why dwell time is required. Our Enzyme Deodorant is this type ($14.95/g in case)

An actual Enzyme begins working immediately at full capacity, so you are 30 min. ahead in odor removal.

More expensive, but works much faster, and can work in conjunction with a strong Oxidizer.

http://www.cobbcarpet.com/zen/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=65&products_id=5431
 
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#52
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Tom,

is is counterproductive to flush using OSR/Pet Zone, then apply Bio charge or Modifier.

will the h20 render the live bacteria culture effectiveless?(word? lol)
 
#53
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Tom,

is is counterproductive to flush using OSR/Pet Zone, then apply Bio charge or Modifier.

will the h20 render the live bacteria culture effectiveless?(word? lol)
Most or all of the hydrogen peroxide with be flushed out. It will not be present to affect the bacteria culture.

If there was a small volume of H2O2 left behind, it would soon break down to water and oxygen which do not affect the bacteria.

If you did mean H2O (rather than H2O2) than water does not adversely affect the bacteria. It needs moisture to grow.
 
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#54
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What drew me in, I had looked for feedback on Unleashed. I wanted to give it another shot. Wanted one trip and no worries.
One small area. top of stairs from basement, essentially the area where the door swings. Dog had been isolated. Basement carpet was pulled and replaced.

Carpet in the whole place is almost new. I do a lot of work for them and they were sure that one small area ,barely a sq. yard, could be dealt with , to avoid replacing the whole place.
Took my Unleashed in. Soaked heavily, undiluted, pulled up and even injected with electric sprayer under pad. All squishey. Covered with plastic.
So , plenty of dwell.
Next morning flushed , flushed , flushed . spotter claw.

Left. They put a fan on that area. Came back next morning. It was dry. Wanted to puke it smelled so bad!

Luckily this place is on my way every day!!!
 
#55
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Most or all of the hydrogen peroxide with be flushed out. It will not be present to affect the bacteria culture.

If there was a small volume of H2O2 left behind, it would soon break down to water and oxygen which do not affect the bacteria.

If you did mean H2O (rather than H2O2) than water does not adversely affect the bacteria. It needs moisture to grow.
Good catch, yes meant h202. ! Thanks.

You answered quickly , while I was still entering previous post.

Re -did that area with OSR , dumped / injected etc.. ,


again tons of H2O(:winky:) flushing buckets poured over /around the spotter claw, and, water through a wand with a needle , injected into carpet and pad.
Followed by Bacteria culture product bio mod.
small fan placed.
Checked this morning, and all good.
 
#57
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Tom, you're making it seem like urine removal is so complicated. It's very simple, just:
spray acid,
dwell,
extract acid,
spray alkaline prespray with 8oz powdered peroxide activated in it
HWE
Post spray with enzyme if you're worried about any odor

The other method for heavy urine:
5gallon bucket with OSR and flood extractor


Those should be the only two methods stressed in the classes. When was the liquid enzyme method first brought in? I'm still pissed at how many callbacks I received from that type of treatment.
I gotta agree with that.

Since first priority is removing the source, the salts and oil/lipids have to be addressed, and likely addressed separately, since breaking down the salts require an acid product that is likely not at the same time effective on oils.

Active enzymes should be supplementary to deal with any light residuals that are not removed.

I don't believe there's a one-product solution or procedure that could be as effective.
 
#58
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It's very simple, just:
spray acid,
dwell,
extract acid,
spray alkaline prespray with 8oz powdered peroxide activated in it
HWE
Post spray with enzyme if you're worried about any odor

The other method for heavy urine:
5 gallon bucket with OSR and flood extractor
While the Acid, Extract, Alkaline Oxidizer method does work ,
I think an actual Enzyme w/strong Oxidizer does a very good job of breaking up residues, and with a water claw plus edge rinsing, will exceed the more labor-intensive method.

I recently used it on a cat-lady's room of carpet where two male cats had sprayed repeatedly. After pouring Enzyme/Oxidiizer, agitating and water clawing . . . I could not detect any odor the next day, with my nose to the carpet. Previous photo from the same carpet:
Urine.jpg
 
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#59
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While the Acid, Extract, Alkaline Oxidizer method does work ,
I think an actual Enzyme w/strong Oxidizer does a very good job of breaking up residues, and with a water claw plus edge rinsing, will exceed the more labor-intensive method.

I recently used it on a cat-lady's room of carpet where two male cats had sprayed repeatedly. After pouring Enzyme/Oxidiizer, agitating and water clawing . . . I could not detect any odor the next day, with my nose to the carpet. Previous photo from the same carpet:
View attachment 74549
I haven't tried your enzyme/oxidizer on urine, but the others are a joke compared to the acid/alkaline oxidizer method.

I need to order some more goodies soon from you, so I'll try your enzyme stuff. Can you post a link of the exact product you're talking about?
 

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