Do you agree with this guys veiw on pre vacuuming?

[Mikey P]

and you're a f'n hack if you think a CRB makes a good resi pre scubber.

Sure it will dig out some remaining hair but they do not break grease loose like a 175 will and they ruin many piles, especially cut berbers.

 

[dday]

and you're a f'n hack if you think a CRB makes a good resi pre scubber.

Sure it will dig out some remaining hair but they do not break grease loose like a 175 will and they ruin many piles, especially cut berbers.

Thanks for letting me post.

I have used a CRB for residential pre-scrub for over five years. No problems regardless of fiber or pile style. Use the right brushes (I have four different sets myself) for the pile with the right pre-spray and you'll have no trouble at all.

You will remove far more than "some remaining hair."

So far all you have done is elicited opinions from posters who are reacting to my original post. Why not the advice of the poster who suggested you run some tests at MF. Like I said, "seeing is believing." And if you really want to see, I would suggest you use a magnification device that you can view on a computer monitor or television screen, similar to the childrens toy by eyeclops. I do think you (and others) will be surprised by what you see.

What I don't understand is why dismiss out of hand the possibility that there may be a better way to remove non-soluble soil from a textile than a vacuum cleaner?

 

[Mikey P]

Day


I have a GLS with all the brushes

I have a a few 175s of various weights and horse power with all the pads and brushes

I have all the vacuums

I have all the wands...



You are wrong on all counts IMO and if you really want to get a dirty carpet clean, invest in a 360i, till then it's all excuses and ignertness.

 

[dday]

... IMO and if you really want to get a dirty carpet clean, invest in a 360i

So the 360i is the MB product du jour.

I see.

Well, I'm not buying.

 

[Mikey P]

but you have to.



or you wont be allowed to post here, dont you know how it works here David?


oh and in case you cant count, there are well over 300 posts per day on MB compared to the 30 to 40 on ICS.

 

[Jim Martin]

you are not telling anyone who has good common sense anything new and I am sure that a vary large portion of the people here did not need to waste to much of there time and money to be IICRC certified to figure this out on there own....

I did a house the other day ...I vacuumed the crap out of it and filled the vacuum twice...knowing for sure that as soon as I started cleaning it..I would be getting more out of it...but...as I mentioned before.....that was 2 vacuum canisters full of crap that I did not have to deal with or worry about clogging my filters.....so really your whole rant makes no sense at all.......unless your just upset that you fell into the IICRC pit and have been vacuuming your ass off all these years and are just now figuring all this out.....................

 

[Brian R]

"whatever i turn to mud, i pad clean"

didn't i tell you to leave this to the "real" cleaners :!:

BTW, no TM payments here. I own my vans/TM and all equipment. shiteatinggrin

Cork, Not sure how long you've actually cleaned carpet, but you really come across as a true hack. :shock:

Yes, I yet I'm still here.

I've been cleaning since I was 8...I'm 39 now...I know better.


Excuse me....What "WERE" your TM payments. :roll:

 

[harryhides]

The Pre-Vac Myth
Posted By d-day on 12/14/2010 at 9:25 PM

You will be surprised to discover that
The assertion that dry soil removal is best effected by pre-vacuuming is simply an IICRC/Vendor created myths designed to sell you vacuum cleaners.

I recommend that you do the test yourself, rather than rely upon "tests" conducted by the CRI, IICRC, or any other profit- and power-motivated, self appointed, self-anointed industry board.

Now, before any newly minted kool-ade drinking, IICRC certified newbie wing-nut comes out swinging and slinging the IICRC generated mantra about dry-soil removal, I say "Do the tests yourself." I was IICRC certified (techs and firm) for the better part of a decade.
It is a myth. A lie. A deceit.
Carry on.

David, you appear to have some pretty strong feelings about these IICRC created "myths" - care to be more specific - just what TESTS done on what dates are you referring to ?
Also, just who are these "self appointed, power motivated IICRC board" people ?
I am on that Board ( although I did not appoint myself ) and would love to know who and upon what basis you make these claims.

I am all for tests of all sorts - so will you be attending MikeyFest to run these tests ?

Thank you.

 

[dday]

I am all for tests of all sorts - so will you be attending MikeyFest to run these tests ?

No.

 

[dday]

you are not telling anyone who has good common sense anything new a...

I guess I was speaking to those lacking in good common sense, i.e. the majority

 

[Mikey P]

David, I'm 36 bucks sort of my Vortex payment this month, help a brother out.

 

[harryhides]

you are not telling anyone who has good common sense anything new a...

I guess I was speaking to those lacking in good common sense, i.e. the majority

You do realize that statement makes you sound a bit like a "self appointed, power motivated" dude don't you?

 

[Jim Martin]

I am sure that most with good common sense understood it......

 

[dday]

I am sure that most with good common sense understood it......

+1

 

[dday]

David, I'm 36 bucks sort of my Vortex payment this month, help a brother out.

You only need another 4 rooms of carpet cleaning and you'll be over the top by $3.96 - You can do it, Mikey

 

[KevinL]

man, there are some dicks in this business.

 

[Ron Werner]

The Pre-Vac Myth
Posted By d-day on 12/14/2010 at 9:25 PM

I have used Sanitaires for over ten years, and it is a good vacuum cleaner indeed. However, I no longer pre-vacuum unless the customer requests it and pays additional for it.

Why?

Well, do this little experiment for yourself: Run your Sanitaire (or whatever vacuum of your choice) over a room of carpet. Then pre-spray lightly. Then run a Counter Rotating Brush (CRB) machine over the pre-sprayed carpet.

You will be surprised to discover that

1) your pre-Vacuuming has not removed nearly as much hair, dust, lint, etc. as you think it does, as it leaves most of this debris in the carpet (and I mean most as in 80%+) and

2) Dry soil removal is not most effectively accomplished when dry. Dry soil removal is best accomplished by lightly pre-spraying and then removing it via CRB.

The assertion that dry soil removal is best effected by pre-vacuuming is simply an IICRC/Vendor created myths designed to sell you vacuum cleaners.

If you are using a TM, then like it or not, the dirt and debris that you see in your vacuum bag/dust cup will be removed by your TM, and there is no need to pre-vac.

If you do not believe this to be so, then run the tests yourself using an external in-line filter in your TM vacuum hose - Seeing is believing, after all.

I recommend that you do the test yourself, rather than rely upon "tests" conducted by the CRI, IICRC, or any other profit- and power-motivated, self appointed, self-anointed industry board.

If you really want to maximize dry soil removal, dust, hair, lint, etc, then pre-spray and run a CRB prior to extraction.

That having been said, if I were to show up to clean carpet and said carpet were covered with kitty litter and bird seed, I would use a dry vacuum to remove said kitty litter and bird seed prior to pre-spraying and running my CRB.

Now, before any newly minted kool-ade drinking, IICRC certified newbie wing-nut comes out swinging and slinging the IICRC generated mantra about dry-soil removal, I say "Do the tests yourself." I was IICRC certified (techs and firm) for the better part of a decade. I've been a wand slinger since one week out of high school in 1986. I don't need some twenty-three year old unemployed would-be accountant turned carpet cleaner lecture me on the "dry soil/pre-vac" blah blah blah.

It is a myth. A lie. A deceit.

Carry on.

Well, Have to say, this is new. David, you really expect someone to "test" your theory???
Tell you what your first mistake was. ASSUMING your Sanitaires were actually removing anything. Of course your CRB is going to pull up all kinds of hair and stuff. Your CRB isn't digging up the fine soil, its just pulling up the loose hairs that your POS Sanitaire left behind. I use a Whittaker so I know exactly what you're doing.

Lets look at your soil theory. Dry particulates are not suspended well by your prespray. It takes a LOT of water to suspend dry particulate so unless you're flooding the carpet or using a high flow tool, you've left it all behind.
The soil that your prespray is SUPPOSED to suspend is the fine soil that is stuck on the carpet fibres, that remaining 20%. Just how is your CRB going to remove carpet deodourizing powder, or gyprock dust, etc. It won't.


I've been vacuuming since 95 and I've pulled enough soil to know that I don't have to test your theory. I see on every job what why its essential to prevacuum. Its the soil you don't see that is the challenge.

As for 15 min ave to vacuum a house :shock: :shock: You're not using a canister vac are you!? Its one thing to move the vacuum over the carpet, its quite another to actually let it do its work.

And just so you know, I cleaned a place the client said she had "prevacuumed". So on a rare occasion I cleaned it without prevac'g. Prespray, CRB, and rinse. I'll tell you right now that I KNOW that I left soil in that carpet. The CRB scrubbed up all the loose stuff and it "looked" great after I wanded, but I'm sure glad it was a rental.
I've prevacuumed another place the owner had just vacuumed, and like you've been hearing, I removed a large canister of dust and lint from just a room and hall.
Really, sounds like you're just looking for a reason not to take the time to do what you KNOW you need to do. All you do with the CRB is scrub up the carpet so it LOOKS like its clean. Seems like everyone is looking for a way to speed through the job and get on to the next one.

 

[Mikey P]

I've been vacuuming since 95

:shock:

 

[Nate The Great]

I thought people used the pile lifter then vacuum back in the day? Atleast my pops did that... Nothing new... :roll:

 

[Brian R]

I've been vacuuming since 95

:shock:

Hows that job coming Ron?

 

[TimP]

Ron, I have to say I don't agree with you.

 

[dday]

... you really expect someone to "test" your theory???

No. I merely suggested that before one does a knee-jerk dismissal of it, that one might be surprised if one were to test it for himself or herself.

I've been vacuuming since 95 and I've pulled enough soil to know that I don't have to test your theory.

I do not care if you test it or not. But if you are going to dismiss it based upon the fact that in your experience vacuuming removes dry soil, then you are the one making assumptions. Your experience pre-vacuuming proves only one thing: That vacuum cleaners work. The fact that a vacuum cleaner works as it is designed to do does nothing to undermine what I have said above.

Again, I'm not expecting anyone to test anything. This is America, and for the most part we are still free to do as we please so long as we do no harm to others in the process.

Let us suppose that you were to clean half a room of carpet, and then one of Ken Snow's top crews came in and cleaned the other half of the room. Based upon your opinion, you assume that you will have removed more soil than did the Hagopian crew on the basis that you pre-vacuumed, and they did not. I'm saying, "Prove it!" How is you know that you've removed more soil? On what are you basing your opinion? How do you know that whatever amount of dry soil that you pulled into you dust cup from having pre-vac'd your side of the room isn't represented in like amount in the Hagopian filter/waste tank from their cleaning of the other side of room?

Lets look at your soil theory. Dry particulates are not suspended well by your prespray. It takes a LOT of water to suspend dry particulate so unless you're flooding the carpet or using a high flow tool, you've left it all behind.

I'm fairly sure that I was thinking in terms chemical suspension. My view is that the light pre-spray combined with agitation from the brushes provides a sort of lubricated barrier or "float" between fibers and particulate matter which facilitates removal through rinsing and extraction.

The soil that your prespray is SUPPOSED to suspend is the fine soil that is stuck on the carpet fibres

No, the prespray dissolves and suspends the oily soils that adhere to the carpet fibers. The pre-spray does provide lubrication to facilitate the removal of larger particulate matter, hair, etc.

Just how is your CRB going to remove carpet deodourizing powder, or gyprock dust, etc. It won't.

I agree, the CRB will not remove those contaminants. I never said it would. The CRB does not remove anything. It agitates, it does not extract. Again, it facilitates their removal, but does not itself effect their removal.

As for 15 min ave to vacuum a house ...

This is why bulletin boards are generally not the best forum for these discussions - I never posted that it should take 15 minutes to vacuum a house, and neither did the poster who did mention "15 minute to vaccum". He simply said that for him, the average job would take 15 minutes to vaccuum. Presumably he does far more 1-2 room jobs than he does whole houses, so a 15 minute average time to vacuum may be sufficient for him. I do far more whole houses than 1-2 room jobs, so for me, 15 minutes would not be near enough time to vacuum an average sized job.

Really, sounds like you're just looking for a reason not to take the time to do what you KNOW you need to do. All you do with the CRB is scrub up the carpet so it LOOKS like its clean. Seems like everyone is looking for a way to speed through the job and get on to the next one.

No, not at all and nothing could be farther from the truth. The CRB does make the carpet look cleaner as it does a wonderful job of helping your pre-spray dissolve and suspend those oily based soils that create what most consider an overall soiled appearance. But, thinking in terms of the principles of cleaning (Time, Agitation, Chemical, & Heat) the carpet is not clean until the soils dissolved, suspended, loosened, and lubricated by the pre-spray (C) facillitated by dwell time (T) and the CRB agitation (A) are removed by hot water extraction (H,A, and for some, C).

So test or don't test - it matters nothing to me. You can continue to dismiss my "theory," as you call it. But in the end, Ron, all you are proving is that which needs no proof at all - most vacuum cleaners remove dry soil. I agree. So what? The fact that vacuum cleaners do so does nothing to prove your assertion that pre-vacuuming is essential to maximizing soil removal.

My customers get a cleaner carpet by my having replaced pre-vacuuming (in most cases) with pre-scrubbing/pile-lifting with a CRB (though I do still offer it as part of my most highest priced package and on an ala carte basis). I have no problems with wicking in spite of not pre-vacuuming. Wicking, after all, is more a function of not properly rinsing the carpet and excessive dry times than a simple dry soil removal issue. I have a very high repeat and referral rate. None of my customers would ever feel that I was attempting to cut corners in order to rush off to the next job. And your ad hominem argument against me will do nothing to make you right and me wrong.

So if this discussion is to continue with me in it, we should stick to the facts of cleaning, rather than impute unsavory or immoral motives to one another. I have no agenda. I have nothing to sell. I am a lone wolf, owner operator who does a very fine job of giving his customers excellent, high-quality service at a reasonable, locally competitive price, and I am quite happy to be so.

 

[Brian R]

I'll say again.

Unless you are pulling the carpet and pad up, you are NOT getting all the dirt out with any cleaning.

You will however get all the dirt out of the carpet without vacuuming first using a TM.

Ron, you're a little overboard on this vacuuming thing. lol....like you haven't heard that before. shiteatinggrin


And let's not forget that there will be dirt right back into the carpet again within a day.

This ain't rocket science and yet, it's what we all make it out to be.

 

[XTREME1]

D-day seems like a douche. If he actually was looking to help discussion on this matter in the industry he would be proud that it was picked up by other people for discussion.
I pretty much agree with him based on most of my customers. If my inline filters get filled I ask them who there cleaning service is and tell they they should watch how fast the company flies through vacuuming because in the long run it will damage the fibers of there carpets. If they say they clean there own home I tell they "I am amazed at how well you keep your home, I wish mine was this clean having children I just can't keep up"

 

[Brian R]

Lol @ Greg.

I promote the vacuuming from my customers.

They always ask "how often"

I say everyday...and then watch the look on their face (this is what I used to do anyway)

Then you say 2 to 3 times a week and it doesn't seem so bad.

Ron, are you done vacing that carpet yet?

When people ask me what vac to buy I say the 50 dollar one at Walmart...just make sure it's cleaned out and throw it away for another one in about a year or so.

 

[Warren Wallace]

One big reason to prevac is when you move a couch there is
always a lot of crap under it because the average customer
never move them.

 

[Brian R]

I've done house where I couldn't vac under the couch.

I had to rake it first and then vacuum.

People are filthy buggers...right Shorty?

 

[dday]

... If he actually was looking to help discussion on this matter in the industry he would be proud that it was picked up by other people for discussion...

If you were to read what had to say, then you'd see the real issue was not so much that he lifted my post, but rather it was that he published my post on his forum, but removed my permissions to participate in the enduing discussion. So he basically hung me out to dry with my arms tied behind my back, like a sort of internet pinata. I think it utterly reasonable for me to to expect that I would be able to participate in a debate spawned by my own post, don't you? Mikey has now reinstated by posting ability. So we can discuss the issue at hand, or you can continue down the Ron Werner et. al. road and call names and attack motives rather than discuss facts. If we are going to discuss the facts about the cleaning process, then great. But if all folks are going to do is half-read it and spew vitriol, MP may as well close this thread, and send it to the ash heap of internet history.

As for the state of the industry, my real concern is with me and my own business. I serve this industry best, to the extent that I serve it at all, by servicing my customer as well as I am able to do.

 

[Shorty]

.

 

[Goomer]

The discussion should be more about which is the better way to remove the FINE SOILS that have settled DEEP into the BOTTOM of the fibers, and wheather you should go after them first in their dry state or not.