Do you agree with this guys veiw on pre vacuuming?

[Goomer]

All you have offered is theory.
What actual test have you performed that support your theory?

Have you ever post vacc'ed a carpet with a clear canister vac after your CRB-extracted it.
I would think any testing of your theory would require specifically a quality clear canister vac only, which you don't even use.

I think you should buy a Cleartrak and run it over what you "think" you just cleaned. Then post the results and I am sure most here will accept your apology.

 

[Brian R]

Don't have so much pride in your work that you lose money.

If you do that...get out quick.

I'm not saying to do crap work...which I'm sure that's how some will take what I just said.

I'm saying overkill because of your OCD or ignorance is like pissing your life away.



I think we are all majoring in the minors in this thread.

 

[Goomer]

Don't have so much pride in your work that you lose money.

If you do that...get out quick.

I'm not saying to do crap work...which I'm sure that's how some will take what I just said.

I'm saying overkill because of your OCD or ignorance is like pissing your life away.



I think we are all majoring in the minors in this thread.

It is obviously very possible to operate a successful, very profitable business, that includes pre-vac'ing, and
complying with your OCD.
For me, I have not only my customers expectations to exceed, but my own.
That's the difference.

What do you know about OCD anyway? !gotcha!

 

[dday]

All you have offered is theory.
What actual test have you performed that support your theory?

Have you ever post vacc'ed a carpet with a clear canister vac after your CRB-extracted it.
I would think any testing of your theory would require specifically a quality clear canister vac only, which you don't even use.

I think you should buy a Cleartrak and run it over what you "think" you just cleaned. Then post the results and I am sure most here will accept your apology.

Again, I'm not here to prove anything to you or anyone else who already has his mind made up. You do pose a very good question regarding the tests, but again, I am not here to convince anyone of anything. I am certainly not here to be cajoled into buying the vacuum cleaner du jour or the wand du jour or the rotary extraction tool du jour etc and so on.

I put my "theory," as everyone wishes to call it, out on the table. You are skeptical of it. Great! I'd expect nothing less from any thoughtful individual. However, your skepticism, if supported by a healthy and intelligent curiosity, ought to induce you to do the your own testing yourself. I am a firm believer in being one who thinks for himself. As I said in my last post, I would not expect anyone simply to accept what I am saying on my say-so, just as I would not have accepted it on someone else's say-so when I believed what you still believe to be the case. If it matters enough to you to discover for yourself whether or not I am correct, then you can use your vacuum cleaner of choice and do the tests yourself.

I am not the one selling anything.

I am not the one recommending anyone rush out and buy this that or the other brand of carpet cleaning widgetry.

I simply shared what I have found to be the case. It is not my job to prove it to you or anyone else, and I certainly do not need to apologize for simply stating what I have found to be a matter of fact. Galileo may have been forced to recant his observation that it is the earth the revolves around the sun, rather than what had been the accepted wisdom of his day, that it was the sun that revolved around the earth. Saying so won't make it so. Same as in this case. Conventional wisdom declares that dry soil can only be removed via dry vacuuming. We now have at least two folks who believe that not only is dry soil removable by dry vacuum only, but they go one step farther and state that dry soil can only be properly removed by using a particular make and model of vacuum cleaner! Good grief!

Also, to be clear, I do not "CRB-extracted" anything. I pile-lift with the CRB, and then I extract with my TM. The CRB is not an extractor.

Also, I do have a vacuum on my truck, and I do include pre-vacuuming in my highest level package. I offer three cleaning packages, let's call them bronze, silver, and gold. My bronze package consists of pre-spray and HWE or pre-spray and bonnet (which is all I would guess that 90%+ of the cleaners on this forum actually do). The silver package consists of pre-spray, CRB, and HWE. The gold package includes pre-vac through post-groom including Scotchgard. Spotting and a reasonable amount of OSR/water claw treatment is included with all packages.

I am always prepared to provide the customer with the best service I can commensurate with she has budgeted for carpet cleaning. Over on the ICS board, Ron posted that he once spent forty-five minutes vacuuming one square yard of carpet! Does he do it for free? I can't afford to do it for free. In fact, I'd probably charge about $75 to stand there and slowly draw my vacuum cleaner back and forth over the same square yard of carpet for 45 minutes. If someone wants to pay me an extra $75 to spend forty-five minutes vacuuming one square yard of carpet, I will do it. However, I would let that customer know that while the cost of vacuuming one square yard of carpet for forty-five minutes in $75, the value of having done so is closer to $1.00. Then I'd let the customer choose what she'd have me do, rather than tell her either to pay up or to call someone else.

I am a service provider. The service I provide is carpet cleaning. It is not rocket science. I will never deserve the Nobel Peace prize as a result of my occupation. I have no illusions nor delusions about my status concerning my service. I am not a surgeon. I am not a lawyer. I am not a CPA, a dentist, or a guided missile system programmer. I remove dirt and pee and poo from other people's carpets so that those people will enjoy a cleaner looking, fresher smelling, softer feeling, longer lasting carpet. That is it.

Now, unlike most of you here, I am not getting rich - far from it. In fact, I had a couple of real rough years here starting in late 2007 and accelerating to the downside toward the end of 2008 straight through 2009 and the first part of 2010. In addition to the recession, 35% of my regular 2X/year residential customers had their jobs relocated to a southern state. Things have only really returned to normal levels of activity for me over the last three months or so. I have high hopes for 2011.

In spite of the economic challenges, I have remained happy. I wouldn't choose to do anything else. Far from being a bitter ****** as MP said of me, I am just about the happiest person I know. I really do love to clean carpet. I wake up everyday happy to be able to get to work. I run a good honest business. I am honest with my customers. I charge them a fair and reasonable price for the service I provide. My self-worth comes from my belief in God, the love of my family, and the integrity with which I conduct my business. I do not need to inflate in my mind the complexity of carpet cleaning in order to inflate my own self-esteem. I do not need to run further tests and post youtube videos and buy over-hyped vacuum cleaners and over-priced extraction tools to feel good about myself.

So don't ask me for tests. I do not owe you nor anyone else any such thing. If you want to find out if I am correct, then test it for your own self. After all, even if I did bring out my scales and microscope and magnification projector and filmed it in HD and sent you a free DVD, you'd still not believe what you were seeing. So why should I bother? If you want to know for sure, test it yourself.

I wish the best to you and yours,

David

 

[Mikey P]

looks like you missed church typing all that :!:

 

[Ken Snow]

Great posts David!

 

[XTREME1]

Jesus never vacuumed a carpet, lets see you guys call him a hack

 

[Goomer]

All you have offered is theory.
What actual test have you performed that support your theory?

Have you ever post vacc'ed a carpet with a clear canister vac after your CRB-extracted it.
I would think any testing of your theory would require specifically a quality clear canister vac only, which you don't even use.

I think you should buy a Cleartrak and run it over what you "think" you just cleaned. Then post the results and I am sure most here will accept your apology.

Again, I'm not here to prove anything to you or anyone else who already has his mind made up. You do pose a very good question regarding the tests, but again, I am not here to convince anyone of anything. I am certainly not here to be cajoled into buying the vacuum cleaner du jour or the wand du jour or the rotary extraction tool du jour etc and so on. I am just recommending a quality canister vac. Obviously no one would benefit from a you buying a particular vacuum that is not even manufactured anymore, and not sold by anyone here.

I put my "theory," as everyone wishes to call it, out on the table. You are skeptical of it. Great! I'd expect nothing less from any thoughtful individual. However, your skepticism, if supported by a healthy and intelligent curiosity, ought to induce you to do the your own testing yourself. I am a firm believer in being one who thinks for himself. As I said in my last post, I would not expect anyone simply to accept what I am saying on my say-so, just as I would not have accepted it on someone else's say-so when I believed what you still believe to be the case. If it matters enough to you to discover for yourself whether or not I am correct, then you can use your vacuum cleaner of choice and do the tests yourself.

I am not the one selling anything.

I am not the one recommending anyone rush out and buy this that or the other brand of carpet cleaning widgetry.

I simply shared what I have found to be the case.I am curious how you found it to be the case if you did not perform the most obvious test of your theory, which is post vacuuming with a clear canister vac to see the results. I would think that you would have done this simple test yourself. Your asking everyone else to test themselves, yet it seems you have failed at proper testing yourself. It couldn't be any simpler, post-vac and see what you get. Maybe you have other testing results you can share with us? It is not my job to prove it to you or anyone else, and I certainly do not need to apologize for simply stating what I have found to be a matter of fact. Galileo may have been forced to recant his observation that it is the earth the revolves around the sun, rather than what had been the accepted wisdom of his day, that it was the sun that revolved around the earth. Saying so won't make it so. Same as in this case. Conventional wisdom declares that dry soil can only be removed via dry vacuuming. We now have at least two folks who believe that not only is dry soil removable by dry vacuum only, but they go one step farther and state that dry soil can only be properly removed by using a particular make and model of vacuum cleaner! Just reccomending a quality vaccum silly. Based on your choice of sanitares I thought you could use some vacuum advice. Good grief!

Also, to be clear, I do not "CRB-extracted" anything. I pile-lift with the CRB, and then I extract with my TM. The CRB is not an extractor.Yes, I know, that's what I meant.

Also, I do have a vacuum on my truck, and I do include pre-vacuuming in my highest level package. I offer three cleaning packages, let's call them bronze, silver, and gold. My bronze package consists of pre-spray and HWE or pre-spray and bonnet (which is all I would guess that 90%+ of the cleaners on this forum actually do). The silver package consists of pre-spray, CRB, and HWE. The gold package includes pre-vac through post-groom including Scotchgard. Spotting and a reasonable amount of OSR/water claw treatment is included with all packages.

I am always prepared to provide the customer with the best service I can commensurate with she has budgeted for carpet cleaning. Over on the ICS board, Ron posted that he once spent forty-five minutes vacuuming one square yard of carpet! Does he do it for free? I can't afford to do it for free. In fact, I'd probably charge about $75 to stand there and slowly draw my vacuum cleaner back and forth over the same square yard of carpet for 45 minutes. If someone wants to pay me an extra $75 to spend forty-five minutes vacuuming one square yard of carpet, I will do it. However, I would let that customer know that while the cost of vacuuming one square yard of carpet for forty-five minutes in $75, the value of having done so is closer to $1.00. Then I'd let the customer choose what she'd have me do, rather than tell her either to pay up or to call someone else.

I am a service provider. The service I provide is carpet cleaning. It is not rocket science. I will never deserve the Nobel Peace prize as a result of my occupation. I have no illusions nor delusions about my status concerning my service. I am not a surgeon. I am not a lawyer. I am not a CPA, a dentist, or a guided missile system programmer. I remove dirt and pee and poo from other people's carpets so that those people will enjoy a cleaner looking, fresher smelling, softer feeling, longer lasting carpet. That is it.

Now, unlike most of you here, I am not getting rich - far from it. In fact, I had a couple of real rough years here starting in late 2007 and accelerating to the downside toward the end of 2008 straight through 2009 and the first part of 2010. In addition to the recession, 35% of my regular 2X/year residential customers had their jobs relocated to a southern state. Things have only really returned to normal levels of activity for me over the last three months or so. I have high hopes for 2011.

In spite of the economic challenges, I have remained happy. I wouldn't choose to do anything else. Far from being a bitter ****** as MP said of me, I am just about the happiest person I know. I really do love to clean carpet. I wake up everyday happy to be able to get to work. I run a good honest business. I am honest with my customers. I charge them a fair and reasonable price for the service I provide. My self-worth comes from my belief in God, the love of my family, and the integrity with which I conduct my business. I do not need to inflate in my mind the complexity of carpet cleaning in order to inflate my own self-esteem. I do not need to run further tests and post youtube videos and buy over-hyped vacuum cleaners and over-priced extraction tools to feel good about myself.

So don't ask me for tests. Of course not, because you have not conducted any.I do not owe you nor anyone else any such thing. If you want to find out if I am correct, then test it for your own self. After all, even if I did bring out my scales and microscope and magnification projector and filmed it in HD and sent you a free DVD, you'd still not believe what you were seeing. So why should I bother? If you want to know for sure, test it yourself.

A theory with NO SUPPORTING EVIDENCE, remains a theory.
So I will ask again this simple question.
Did you perform the simple 10 minute definitive test of your theory, which would be a post-vacuum after dry to see the results?
Yes or no.
I guess you did not.


I wish the best to you and yours,
And to you the same....
David

 

[dday]

Great posts David!

Thank you, Ken, your compliment is sincerely appreciated.

 

[Willy P]

I can pee further than all of you. Really I can. :roll:

 

[ruff]

Yes, please tell me how you, in your more experienced capacity, would have run the test differently.
I scrubbed sand and deodour powder into the carpet, steam cleaned one side with a highend TM, then vacuumed both sides to see the diff.

1) Unrealistic test. In reality people do not have pounds of dirt piled on top of their carpet. Notice that the original poster mentioned that if there is tons of dirt on the carpet, off course he will vacuum. To demonstrate valid results a test has to be performed in normal circumstances. By the way, I am sure that if your part was turned upside down, there will still be tons of sand in it.

2) No pad. That limits air flow which affects the ability of the wand to remove dirt more than vacuum that relies also on vibration. Again, a test to be valid has to be at least closely related to reality, not completely out of whack as yours was.

3) Why is the person cleaning with the wand misting the carpet before hand. Simple forward motion would have better utilized the dry vacuuming that happens in the normal forward motion. It would have removed much more of dry particulate. Again in reality we adjust to the conditions at hand.

4) What kind of glide was used? A slot glide would have done much better in removing non soluble particles.

5) You vacuum the steamed only side (looks like mostly fluff) and than in the video you do not vacuum the whole other side and you never empty the cup beforehand. So we rely on your claim that it does not remove as much.
A good test would have emptied the cup completely after each test. Also it would have had the exact same passes in different directions etc. Yours didn’t.

And that is what I could see from the video or as you put it: “how you, in your more experienced capacity, would have run the test differently.”


Hell Ron, I am not more experienced, (thank you for the compliment.)
I vacuum when needed, I pre-spray when required. I even smile when my clients pay me.
In short, a reasonable guy, just not a vacuuming zealot!

P.S. All the original poster said was try first and judge later.
Are you even remotely capable of doing that Ron?

 

[dday]

A theory with NO SUPPORTING EVIDENCE, remains a theory.
So I will ask again this simple question.
Did you perform the simple 10 minute definitive test of your theory, which would be a post-vacuum after dry to see the results?
Yes or no.
I guess you did not.

I did indeed conduct my own tests. Unlike the youtube video posted in this thread, I used two separate three foot carpet squares. Both were new, cut contiguously from the same roll. Each was pre-cleaned with an HWE clear water rinse prior and thoroughly dried prior to the test. To each was added a 14 ounce canister of Carpet Fresh with Baking Soda and 16 ounces of fresh play sand. Each was weighed at each stage of the process on a platform scale at a friend's machine shop. As I said, my results persuaded me that my current view is correct. You can keep challenging me to duplicate the tests, but toward what end? I didn't video the results as I never had any intention of posting or sharing them. I did them because I was curious and to I wanted to satisfy my own curiosity.

There really is no need for you to be so accusatory and dismissive with my posts. You can do the test yourself, but you need to do it right and you need to do it precisely. For example, again referring to the above posted youtube video, just what is the precise weight of "a bunch of sand"? And how do you know that the powder from the "entire canister" and sand was evenly distributed over the carpet? Answer: you don't. What you accept as a "definitive test" has no control, and therefore no credibility.

I suggest that you and everyone to take what I say with a grain of sand, (heck, take it with a whole "bunch of sand" for all I care) and try it for yourselves. In my original post about this subject on the ICS board I said that I do not expect anyone to believe me and that each should try it for him or herself if, that is, one were sufficiently moved by one's curiosity to know. If you want to know, then test. It is that simple.

 

[ruff]

David, I agree with Ken.
Yours are thoughtful well reasoned arguments and they make sense.

Ignore the barking, keep on posting.

 

[Mikey P]

What is comes down to is that a CRB will remove hair better than a average or even above average vacuum cleaner



but it wont remove fine particulates, wet or dry.


Skipping a good pre vacuuming in a situation that deserves it is hackish, no other way to put it.

 

[Brian R]

What is comes down to is that a CRB will remove hair better than a average or even above average vacuum cleaner



but it wont remove fine particulates, wet or dry.


Skipping a good pre vacuuming in a situation that deserves it is hackish, no other way to put it.

Speaks volumes

 

[ruff]

What is comes down to is that a CRB will remove hair better than a average or even above average vacuum cleaner



but it wont remove fine particulates, wet or dry.


Skipping a good pre vacuuming in a situation that deserves it is hackish, no other way to put it.

Coming from you: It's a badge of honor
Besides the argument is not about "A situation that deserves it," that's a given.

 

[Mikey P]

Coming from you: It's a badge of honor

lost in translation..

 

[everfresh1]

Great posts David!

Ditto... :mrgreen:

 

[Ron Werner]

Ron, I have to say I don't agree with you.

There isn't much you do Tim