So Who's Liable?

[everfresh1]

I know the faucet well....

They are frost free..

Often when a hose is left connected in cold weather, water will not drain from the neck of the valve. Freeze and break.
It will only leak when turned on.

So, I always.. Year around connect, turn on, kink hose and listen. Often besides hearing you can feel the hose does not back up pressure. A sure sign the neck is leaking.

IMO, if this happened to me, I'd roll over and take blame.
I would feel this was my mistake.
But maybe because I know better.

I come across just 5-10 broken valves a year.

Something else I do, because I don't use on board water.

Often I always use my own hose when connected.

But if I used the clients, I always discounted it after use in the colder months. No matter if it was or was not connected before hand.
When using my own hose, I never reconnect theirs in the cold months.

Sorry it happened to you.

I'd take blame, but not offer blame.

Yep thats the one... The top one. There was no hose on it when I got there, maybe at one time before the new owners bought the place. There didn't seem to be much of a slope on it so it could drain properly though.

 

[Desk Jockey]

Sorry it happened to you Jamie. This does happen a lot in colder regions.

It's one of the main reasons we decided to carry our water. I'm surprised as long as you've been in business and up in the cold north this is your first experience.

John is blunt, but right. You could fight it but you were the last to touch it so you'd most likely be hung with it. Did you do anything wrong.....not really but the room wasn't damaged prior to you using the spigot.

You don't have to carry water, but you should learn to listen for the water to stop running, it might save you or at the very least minimize the damage.

We see thing quite frequently in the spring. Homeowner goes to wash the car and notices lower pressure but continues to wash the car while filling the basement.

 

[FB7777]

Jamie,

If it was the top one in the diagram, then you had to turn on the inside valve to get the water to flow.

In that case, there really is no question that you are responsible for the damage.

 

[KevinD]

Jamie,
If it was the top one in the diagram, then you had to turn on the inside valve to get the water to flow.

Not if it was already opened.

 

[Royal Man]

Jamie,

If it was the top one in the diagram, then you had to turn on the inside valve to get the water to flow.

In that case, there really is no question that you are responsible for the damage.

If it was the top one and the inside valve was not shut offf by the new onwer or the prior owners during freezing weather. Of course it froze.

Or maybe ever a tenent or an other maintance woeker opened the inside valve.

Even if the inside valve is closed off, The outside valve has to be kept open alowing it to drain.

If you had to open the outside valve It was not manitainded properly by the owners for freezing weather.


So, Did you have to open the inside valve? Was the outside valve left open?

 

[MerCrewser]

I have had this happen twice. Unless something is placarded as "broken - do not use", they are responsible. It infuriates me when people don't take responsibility for their broken equipment.

I personally would not worry about this ONE BIT. What are you supposed to do, go around and test every light switch, wall socket, furnace, ac unit etc etc etc for defect?????????


I extracted water both times, and gave customer an earful about the inconvenience and hassle it caused me, AND they are still customers today.

 

[MerCrewser]

They will turn this over to their insurance and it WILL be covered.

 

[hogjowl]

Recognizing the possibility that Olsin is correct, because our judicial system is truly upside down in terms of logic, I am glad we don't have to deal with that particular hazzard here is the hot as hell state of Alabama.

Now, if I could just get away with tracking cow and pig crap in the house without the customer getting all pissy about it.

 

[Desk Jockey]

They will turn this over to their insurance and it WILL be covered.

When they do that, their insurance will pay for the damages, in fact they may even replace it.

But then they will just subrogate it back to your insurance and you still end up taking a hit on your end.

Insurance companies have changed in the last few years, they don't take a hit without looking for someone to recover that money from.

 

[Connor]

Key word is authorization.

For future protection, I'd put something in my presigned work order stating that they client gives permission to use their water facilities.


Property managers can be scumbags.

You may be considered to be liable. You didn't cause the break, but you did facilitate the flood. You're probably going to lose the client over this.

Those so-called freeze proof hydrants break more often than the regular hose bibs and we don't even get that much freezing weather.

 

[Connor]

Insurance companies have changed in the last few years, they don't take a hit without looking for someone to recover that money from.

I responded to a flood from a toilet supply that split because the installer used a brass ferrule on a poly supply instead of a plastic ferrule. (Brass ferrules are only for copper supply lines, never pex or poly)

I wrote on the ticket that it was a improper install/bad assembly that was probably a decade old. The insurance company called me to know who the manufacturer was and who installed it, so they could go after them. I told them I didn't know and they asked me for a "SUGGESTION" of a company who "MIGHT" have installed it. :shock:

 

[MerCrewser]

They will turn this over to their insurance and it WILL be covered.

When they do that, their insurance will pay for the damages, in fact they may even replace it.

But then they will just subrogate it back to your insurance and you still end up taking a hit on your end.

Insurance companies have changed in the last few years, they don't take a hit without looking for someone to recover that money from.

They can try, but the contractors insurance will not pay. It was the clients defective part!! It's a battle between insurance companies, and the client's will lose.

 

[John Olson]

I have had this happen twice. Unless something is placarded as "broken - do not use", they are responsible. It infuriates me when people don't take responsibility for their broken equipment.

I personally would not worry about this ONE BIT. What are you supposed to do, go around and test every light switch, wall socket, furnace, ac unit etc etc etc for defect?????????


I extracted water both times, and gave customer an earful about the inconvenience and hassle it caused me, AND they are still customers today.

Don't know why I am doing this as I said I was only going to say it once. James just because you got away with it doesn't mean anything. If the customer didn't back down to you and took you to court you would lose period. You do NOT have the right to turn anything on unless given permission and a realse/hold harmless if anything goes wrong. It is not the home owners responsibillity to tell you anything is broken that you do not have permission to use and that is what the courts have to say about it not me.

Now if you did have permission (written because we all know people lie) then yes he would have nothing to worry about.

No one has to believe anything I am sharing call your lawyer. I have no skin in the game except trying to help you guys not get screwed. The folks here in Utah only have to Pick up the phone and call the folks that thought like you and ended up not only paying for the restoration but all the legal fees too.

 

[FB7777]

and Im only gonna say this once...

people that responded in this thread and their position on responsibility tells me alot about your professionalism and how individuals conduct their business

If you dont beleive the cleaner that comes unprepared without water and is unauthorized to use a properties water is not responsible you really should take a look at how you run your ENTIRE operation

 

[Connor]

Yep.

X2 Fred and John.

 

[Lee Stockwell]

X2

 

[Ross Buettner]

let me save you all a bunch of typing.

You, and the owners have insurance. No matter who says what both insurance companies are gonna be at each others throats for liability.

Who's at fault doesn't mean much here. It's why we carry insurance.

 

[rwcarpet]

Jamie,
If it was the top one in the diagram, then you had to turn on the inside valve to get the water to flow.

Not if it was already opened.

The valve before the valve can be open, and the spigot not leak untill you turn it on. The pipe between the inside valve and the outside spigot had probably froze, and split, and that's where the water leak occured. Seen it....done it.

 

[Bob Savage]

Jamie,

To reduce the stress this situation has caused you, please call your insurance agent and turn it over to them - period.

It's like the broken doorknob - you enter the room, you touch it, it falls off. Is it your fault?

In regards to your, and Mark Twain's question in your signature about the Jews - they are God's chosen people.

 

[MerCrewser]

John Olson" data-source="" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch">

I have had this happen twice. Unless something is placarded as "broken - do not use", they are responsible. It infuriates me when people don't take responsibility for their broken equipment.

I personally would not worry about this ONE BIT. What are you supposed to do, go around and test every light switch, wall socket, furnace, ac unit etc etc etc for defect?????????


I extracted water both times, and gave customer an earful about the inconvenience and hassle it caused me, AND they are still customers today.

Don't know why I am doing this as I said I was only going to say it once. James just because you got away with it doesn't mean anything. If the customer didn't back down to you and took you to court you would lose period. You do NOT have the right to turn anything on unless given permission and a realse/hold harmless if anything goes wrong. It is not the home owners responsibillity to tell you anything is broken that you do not have permission to use and that is what the courts have to say about it not me.

Now if you did have permission (written because we all know people lie) then yes he would have nothing to worry about.

No one has to believe anything I am sharing call your lawyer. I have no skin in the game except trying to help you guys not get screwed. The folks here in Utah only have to Pick up the phone and call the folks that thought like you and ended up not only paying for the restoration but all the legal fees too.

Agree, everyone should always ask to hook up to water.

I'm no lawyer, and i respect your position, but where does this end? Do you have to ask permission to turn on every light switch in the house? Ceiling fans? According to this logic, if I flip a light switch and the house burns down I am responsible. That's ridiculous.

 

[renegade_cowboy]

There is a really good learning experience and already making changes to prevent this from happening to my company. I usually just ask if its okay to use the spigot, but written is the way to go to cover my butt.

Thanks John Olsen and the others that helped figure this out.

 

[MerCrewser]

and Im only gonna say this once...

people that responded in this thread and their position on responsibility tells me alot about your professionalism and how individuals conduct their business

If you dont beleive the cleaner that comes unprepared without water and is unauthorized to use a properties water is not responsible you really should take a look at how you run your ENTIRE operation

Calling a cleaner "unprepared" for not bringing water is ridiculous! Hi flow, rotary jet extraction and large jobs will require hooking to water supply, with permission of course.

 

[MerCrewser]

Sorry, just wanted to clarify my position....

John is right, cover your bases!!!!!

I am just encouraging OP to stand his ground, it is my position he is not responsible.

 

[Lee Stockwell]

[quote="MerCrewser]I'm no lawyer, and i respect your position, but where does this end? Do you have to ask permission to turn on every light switch in the house? Ceiling fans? According to this logic, if I flip a light switch and the house burns down I am responsible. That's ridiculous.[/quote]

Thanks for raising the issue of ceiling fans. If you turn one on and notice it is out of balance or noisy it's better to turn it right back OFF.

 

[John Olson]

Sorry, just wanted to clarify my position....

John is right, cover your bases!!!!!

I am just encouraging OP to stand his ground, it is my position he is not responsible.

The problem with your encouraging him is your encouraging him with his money not yours.

 

[rwcarpet]

[quote="MerCrewser]I'm no lawyer, and i respect your position, but where does this end? Do you have to ask permission to turn on every light switch in the house? Ceiling fans? According to this logic, if I flip a light switch and the house burns down I am responsible. That's ridiculous.

Thanks for raising the issue of ceiling fans. If you turn one on and notice it is out of balance or noisy it's better to turn it right back OFF.[/quote][/quote][/quote]


I turned on (pulled the string) on a ceiling fan, and the damn thing fell on the dining room table, and broke a bowl full of glass marbles/balls. Custy didn't blame me......it was a neighborhood "handyman" that installed the fan a day earlier....using plastic anchors through drywall, and a couple drywall screws.

 

[Lee Stockwell]

Probably from KY too....

 

[Connor]

This is a very thought provoking thread, indeed.

Always CYA, get a signature and a date.

 

[rhino1]

Most cc'ers here do not carry water, I do. Still have to fill on occasion. I would think what happens to the claim would vary from area to area, so no one can say you are or are not at fault or you will lose if you do fight a claim... anyone that tells you that is full of it. Since it is too late to do anything one way or the other you will just have to wait and see.

My position is that you should be able to expect any fixture or feature to be functional on any property you do work on unless told otherwise by the owners. Period.

If you had flipped on a light switch that had faulty wiring that started a fire, would you be liable? NO
Would you need permission to turn on a light switch to perform work? NO
Should you be expected to carry a generator to supply electricity so you can work? NO

If you flipped on said switch and were immediately electrocuted, would you have grounds to sue the property management co.? YES

It is their responsibility to maintain the property and even more so considering it is THEIR BUSINESS to do so and they would be experts in the field of maintaining their property. In fact, it could be argued that they were negligent in not correctly winterizing the property, not testing the plumbing after cold weather, and allowing a broken pipe to be left in service. They would be considered to have specialized knowledge in the field of maintaining property and as such should have known about the defect in the building.

JC is not a plumber, he is a carpet cleaner. He has no specialized knowledge that he would have been expected to know if a pipe left in service had a hidden defect. In fact, since the faucet was in service, he has a reasonable expectation that the faucet was usable. The property managers who are in the business of managing properties and have had carpets cleaned on many occasions should know that JC would need access to water.

 

[AJR]

Like most of you are saying here either way it sucks. Olson is right in recomending some updating of paper work wording. such as " i the home owner or property manager grant access to all untilities and other access needed to (your company) perfrom any services requested". i have some stotage units i rent out and my month to month lease covers some of the most stupid things you could imagine. Who would imagine some one would try to live in thier 5x10 unit with no lights or water :shock: :shock: yes i have that listed as a no no on those leases. it never hurts to cover your hey Marty, blow me hey Marty, blow me. i have seen my fair share of sloppy water supplies and i know i will be updateing and drawing up some paper work for my apt cleaning accounts.