So Who's Liable?

[MerCrewser]

John Olson" data-source="" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch">

Sorry, just wanted to clarify my position....

John is right, cover your bases!!!!!

I am just encouraging OP to stand his ground, it is my position he is not responsible.

The problem with your encouraging him is your encouraging him with his money not yours.

I am entitled to voice my opinion. After all, isn't that what the OP requested?????

 

[John Olson]

Your absolutely right. You can voice your opinion no matter how wrong it is :mrgreen: just poking ya with a stick so don't take it personal see the :mrgreen:

The problem here is those arguing it isn't is fault arnt thinking legally but what they feel is morally right. The two are rarely the same.

P.S. when giving advice you should always err on the side of caution especially when it could be very detrimental if the person your advising follows it and your wrong.

 

[rhino1]

Maybe we should all have to get a waiver signed before giving advice...

 

[Tony Neville]

I would fix it, apologize and dry it out as quickly as possible. Then let my insurance handle it from there, Simply because I like to sleep at night.

Think about it from the customers view point. You showed up, poked around, flooded an apt, and then yelled at me. Sorry but I don't think you can dodge this your fault or not.

I would say Half the apartments we do have utilities shut off, tenants think they are saving money when they shut them down. We tell the pm that they are off and let them handle it, but with out water in the van we would have to make 2 trips. My thought would be to carry fresh water.

I feel for you I have done it twice and it sucks.

I would never sign a waiver, if you came to my house to work and asked me to sign something like that, you would leave faster then you got there!!

Tony

 

[Derek]

Calling a cleaner "unprepared" for not bringing water is ridiculous! Hi flow, rotary jet extraction and large jobs will require hooking to water supply, with permission of course.

i only use 2-5 gallons of water, but i bring none. i'm so ashamed...

 

[ACE]

What to you expect from a guy who advertises $12 a rm cleaning
with FREE
Color Brightener
Disinfectant
Deodorizer
:?: :?: :?:

 

[daniel@procarpet]

Seems everyone is jumping on the bandwagon.

What if some kid comes along and turns the faucet on?

The pipe was busted before he ever got there.

Now if he backed his truck into a wall or something then yes that would be his fault.

Personally I have turned the water on at several properties in the winter only to walk into the home to hear water coming from the attic from a busted pipe. Was I the one at fault? No the homeowner or property manager is at fault. It's their property and up to them to maintain the pipes. Just saying.

 

[everfresh1]

[quote="Fred Boyle":2pzf68wf]Jamie,

If it was the top one in the diagram, then you had to turn on the inside valve to get the water to flow.

In that case, there really is no question that you are responsible for the damage.

If it was the top one and the inside valve was not shut offf by the new onwer or the prior owners during freezing weather. Of course it froze.

Or maybe ever a tenent or an other maintance woeker opened the inside valve.

Even if the inside valve is closed off, The outside valve has to be kept open alowing it to drain.

If you had to open the outside valve It was not manitainded properly by the owners for freezing weather.


So, Did you have to open the inside valve? Was the outside valve left open?[/quote:2pzf68wf]


It was on when I got there. I just pulled up, checked to see if it was on, then hooked up/

 

[everfresh1]

What to you expect from a guy who advertises $12 a rm cleaning
with FREE
Color Brightener
Disinfectant
Deodorizer
:?: :?: :?:

Hey whack job.... Stick to the topic… If you want to get smacked around a little do it in another room....Got it? Don't run your mouth when you have nothing substantive add to the topic at hand

 

[Billy]

WOW & to think others told me it was overkill when we started having clients sign a work order release to start work which included among other things a similar release with permission to use the clients water which we no longer need since we carry plenty of water. I also don't miss crawling around in the bushes etc to get to the water.

I know you don't want to hear this but John has given you the best answer because everything that happens while you are in control is your fault unless you can prove it isn't in most cases.

We have clients sign a work order release before the job as well as a final satisfaction at the end. Oh & we also take lots of pics. Incidentally no one has ever refused to sign either one when asked to. It is more in the way you present them

You really should talk with your Insurance agent ASAP. Hopefully you have a good one that can advise you.


Good Luck Seriously.

 

[everfresh1]

There is a really good learning experience and already making changes to prevent this from happening to my company. I usually just ask if its okay to use the spigot, but written is the way to go to cover my butt.

Thanks John Olsen and the others that helped figure this out.

Yes… that is one of the reasons I started this thread, But I will not have customers signing any wavier, I'll sure to listen for leaks from now on. I appreciate everyone’s opinion, The tenet just called me today said some her things were ruined, not that much, but the complex told her to call me, I told her to make a list of what was damaged, have the complex call their insurance, ether they will pay or they will contact my insurance, but whatever… I feel bad for the women, I might just pay her myself, but I don't want to act as if I was accepting responsibility.

 

[Becker]

Pictures of what?

How many pics on a typical job?

Ever have a client ask about it?

Or say, yeah no.. I don't want you having a photographic file of my house.

 

[Lee Stockwell]

Had a friend hospitalized for a water moc snake bite while digging in the shrubbery for a water faucet. Billy's comment reminded me of that one.

Since then I'm pretty cautious....hate disturbing snakes...

 

[Billy]

Pictures of what?

How many pics on a typical job?

Ever have a client ask about it?

Or say, yeah no.. I don't want you having a photographic file of my house.

Mainly we take pics of the Before & After but we will also take pics of any preexisting damage we see. We used to take pics of any cars etc we were close to but with the On-board Video we no longer need those.

No clients don't really ask because we let them know ahead of time we will take pics although years ago we didn't.

How many depends on the Job but we usually let clients know we take pics of every job & at this point no one including our High Profile Clients (Some we can't even say we have)has ever prevented us from taking them. We don't publish all of them with their Name & Address of course but we don't do jobs without pics. They help us & the client in reality.

Pics have helped us more than once though & our On-Board Video has really saved us from liability a couple of times.

We also had one client recently that needed our pics to sue a wood re-finisher for damages to their house & was very appreciative we had taken so many.

You can't prevent all Liability but you can minimize your exposure with Systems, Tools & Planning.

 

[Billy]

Had a friend hospitalized for a water moc snake bite while digging in the shrubbery for a water faucet. Billy's comment reminded me of that one.

Since then I'm pretty cautious....hate disturbing snakes...

WOW Water Moccasins can be serious.

Lee I can just imagine how you would react to a snake.

 

[Lee Stockwell]

Not pretty, like a little girl....no pix please.

 

[Billy]

Not pretty, like a little girl....no pix please.

Already got you & your wife too late but maybe next time we will bring a pet for you to hold

 

[ACE]

..........................................................

 

[randy]

Care and custody is just that. You have taken control over the property.
For example you are house sitting or renting the place etc.
In this case I don't believe a court would find you liable UNTIL you accepted responsibility by extracting the water. Do I believe carpet cleaners have ended up paying for this sort of thing ? Sure but not due to a loss in court but rather fear and their own ignorance. The apartment complex wasn't in your custody as a matter of law. Additionally your general liability insurance would cover legal cost of defense, the insurance company hires the local attorney of their choice NOT yours to defend you. In some cases the policy will not however cover the judgment amount should you lose. For example intentional Tort, criminal act, discrimination in hiring/firing, or Violating the Civil Rights Act. Some policies also don't cover lawsuits that involve alcohol or drugs. For example if you serve alcohol or allow others to do so on your property or at an event under your control. If they get hurt, have an accident after leaving inebriated and kill someone etc. you are on your own if it's an exclusion on your policy declaration. In this case the insurance company will not cover the legal fees or the judgment amount.

That's pretty much how care and custody works, also called custody by consent, control and custody etc. depending on what state you are in. State statues are all pretty much similar on the issue, just different word use to say the same thing.

Bottom Line read your policies and conduct yourselves accordingly. There is no magic bullet that will protect you in all cases. Having someone sign a hold harmless form is OK to do as it might discourage a potential plaintiff from calling an attorney however, but worthless at trail. If you are liable as a matter of law you are still liable form or no form. A great example is ski-lift tickets that claim they are never liable, proven worthless in court many times. If there was negligence, they are liable 100% of the time. The problem is a jury may be deciding if there was negligence and that is a wild card.

 

[John Watson]

Wow there aint been a post like this fer awhile..
Here is a better one, a company in Anch Ak got called in to dryout 4 basement apt. units partialy flooded with sewage.

After the units were all dried and affected sheetrock and carpets were replaced their cleaning div. was called in to clean the carpets not replaced. they had onboard water but run out after the first unit.

So he used the apartment complex hose that had an on off valve at the nozzle. The water was off at the hosebib, They turned it on, filled their truck and finished the job. When done he just shut it off at the nozzle.

Guess what, the hose bib was split from an earlier freeze. The water ran for 3 days before it was found, We got called in to clean it up, dry it out and replace walls and carpets again. This time all areas in all 4 units were affected instead of just partial areas. Yuup we did her the 2nd time for no pay...

""I been in and around this business over 25yrs, never had a problem, been using outside faucets almost the whole time, I'm not going to have people down in Detroit and in most suburbs for that matter sign some stupid weaver every job ..Craziness ""

You have been lucky for 25 yrs,Now you get to pay the piper....


What we are supposed to do and do are totaly differant topics...

Dr Edgar P taught "get a workorder signed on every job!" before you starting.

Do we do it heck no, should we heck yeah.

My son Jay just came back into this field after being in the plumbing field. One of the first things he told me was he wanted a signature before starting any job. Hope he is doing it..

 

[Lyman]

Remember I had to pay to fix a driveway this summer because my van left indentations in the blacktop were it sat. The things that happen that you never thought would.

 

[John Olson]

Just call your agent and your legal counsel. It is what you pay them for. Listening to anyone of us on an Internet forum and basing legal/insurance decisions based on what you read here is not really a smart idea

 

[Desk Jockey]

Most people think their insurance company is behind them, I wouldn't get to comfortable with that thought. Don't count on them to be behind you, they question what you did as much as the opposition. In fact if they can find any crack that will allow them to deny coverage they will. They look at everything with the thought of their exposure. If it's cheaper to pay the claim than to fight it in court, they will. They have their interest first, they will sell you out FAST.

You're much better off doing everything you can in the way of loss prevention so you don't need to call them except for major claims. Even then I'd have an attorney to represent you, at least you'll have someone that is concerned about your interest.

 

[John Olson]

Sounds like you need a new agent want me to give you the number to ours?

 

[Desk Jockey]

It's not your agent John, he can only do so much for you. Although that is a good point make sure you have a very good relationship with your agent.

 

[John Olson]

The two questions (here) that need to be asked and answered are am I liable and if so am I covered. Only people that truly can answer that are your legal counsel and your insurance agent. After those questions are answered you can decide what to do after.

As for waivers, some folks like running nekikid and some don't. Nothing wrong with being self insured/responsible but in this day and age lots of folks are looking to make an easier buck off the "rich" business man. I personally wouldn't want the risk.

 

[rhino1]

I discussed these waivers with a friend who is one of the better attorneys in this area. His opinion was there was no waiver he could write that would cover everything that may happen and in fact most if the liability waivers offered no protection. If someone is going to sue they will do so, waiver or not.

 

[ACE]

I don’t ask my customers to sign waivers of liability unless I’m doing restoration. I do however communicate with them about potential problems. I try to make it a point to ask if I can hook up to their water when doing residential work. I might have a different outlook if I had a large operation, but no one is getting rich suing me and I don’t see it happing unless I really burned someone.

 

[FB7777]

these are the costs of doing business, you deal with the issue and move on

I have paid to have hardwood refinished, walls painted, paint match toouch up a Steinway Piano driveways sealcoated after truck leaks, free jobs cause customers werent happy etc

These all happened in the last few years


Talk to guys like Ken Snow and Chavez and youll probably close your doors by the end of business today :shock:

 

[Steve Toburen]

I know the faucet well....

They are frost free..

Often when a hose is left connected in cold weather, water will not drain from the neck of the valve. Freeze and break.
It will only leak when turned on.

So, I always.. Year around connect, turn on, kink hose and listen. Often besides hearing you can feel the hose does not back up pressure. A sure sign the neck is leaking.

IMO, if this happened to me, I'd roll over and take blame.
I would feel this was my mistake.
But maybe because I know better.

I come across just 5-10 broken valves a year.

Something else I do, because I don't use on board water.

Often I always use my own hose when connected.

But if I used the clients, I always discounted it after use in the colder months. No matter if it was or was not connected before hand.
When using my own hose, I never reconnect theirs in the cold months.

Sorry it happened to you.

I'd take blame, but not offer blame.

Nicely illustrated.

I learned all about this stuff the hard way while cleaning carpets at 6,000 feet in Colorado. One BIG tip off in the spring was when we saw a client's hose connected to the faucet after a hard winter. (Don't ask me how I learned this.)

It is probably too late now that emotions are all heated up on all sides. But wisdom of hindsight and IF I had the W/D equipment and training I just would have gone in and done the whole loss. Much cheaper than having an outside water restoration company called in and being charged their Exactimate pricing.

But now that the other company is on it call your insurance company and hope for the best.

Steve Toburen
http://www.SFS.JonDon.com

PS I would NEVER say I told you so (OK, maybe just this once) but almost exactly one year ago (March 8, 2011) we ran the following "warning for Spring hose hook-ups" in our weekly SFS QuickTIPS:
http://sfs.jondon.com/8390/resources/qu ... his-spring

"Surprise! So-called “frost proof” water faucets will freeze and split internally if a hose is left attached over the winter. However, this hidden rupture won’t be noticed until AFTER an unsuspecting cleaner hooks his hose up and turns on the faucet. So while the carpets are getting cleaning upstairs the home’s lower level is being inundated from the ruptured tubing hidden inside the wall. (Don’t ask me how I learned this!) Time to change your procedures …

Buy a female cap with a rubber hose washer inside that will thread on any faucet bib. After tightening the cap on the hose bib briefly turn on the faucet slightly and listen closely. (You can also keep your hand on the faucet to feel the vibration of running water.) If you can hear (or feel) running water the faucet has an internal rupture inside the wall. Turn it off immediately, inform the homeowner and find your water supply elsewhere.

Bonus TIP: Be very cautious early in the spring time with an outside hose bib that appears to have had a hose attached to it all winter. Very likely it is an “accident waiting to happen”. I know I did way too many “free water damage losses” and replaced too many hose faucets that the homeowner was sure had “burst due to your cleaning pressure”.

So be very, very careful and test all water faucets with your cap until later in the season when the home owner has discovered the broken faucet on their own when watering their lawn. After all, when the home owner floods their own home it then becomes a PAID water loss that you can make big money on!

BTW, our every Tuesday QuickTIP is also available on Mikey's Blog up above. So you don't even have to leave this addictive place to read it.