The Times Are A-Changin'

[Mikey P]

Thanks, Matt for the info . . .

As a builder of some Electric TM's, I would like some clarification on how the X-drive is 100 times the power of the Mytee ETM, which has equivalent vacuum to a #33 blower, General pump @ 900 PSI, 35 GPM Pump-Out and HX from the Van cooling system.

That would mean it FAR outperforms the AeroTech, Mikey.

I don't think so !!

I see a Suck Off happening in Nashville..

 

[Desk Jockey]

What was once old is now new again.. Except for @Desk Jockey , fookers a fossil...

Fossil? I think not.

Nate I'm like Captain America, my azz has been frozen in time.
Uhhh ok maybe my azz was just cold.

Fook me, I'm a fossil. I shouldn't complain however, its been a great ride so far!

 

[dgardner]

the power of the Mytee ETM, which has equivalent vacuum to a #33 blower

This continues to astound me - just because the electric vac has similar open flow and sealed vac numbers we try to say they are equivalent. It doesn't work that way. Here's a graph comparing the two. They are indeed similar - that is until you hook up hoses, wand, plumbing and such... then the curves diverge pretty quickly.

 

[Zee]

This continues to astound me - just because the electric vac has similar open flow and sealed vac numbers we try to say they are equivalent. It doesn't work that way. Here's a graph comparing the two. They are indeed similar - that is until you hook up hoses, wand, plumbing and such... then the curves diverge pretty quickly.

View attachment 13251

Yeah....it sucks for them when facing actual numbers..

 

[rick imby]

Can the Xdrive plug into grid power? Is the electric drive motor DC or AC?

I have no experience with the X-drive.

I am certain the X-drive could be plugged into the power grid with an inverter of some sort and enough power available. However the 120 v and 240 v 60 cycle power grid we currently use will probably not have enough available energy in many locations.

Any voltage can be converted without much loss with an electronic inverter.

The problem is most houses have 100 or 200 amp service and are using a significant chunk of that power when the AC, fridge, dishwasher, water heater all kick in at once.

You can get approximately one to 1.5 horsepower continuous from one 120 volt 15 amp circuit.

When you consider you need 10-20 horsepower to power your blower and pump there is just not enough energy available plugging in to residential power or most commercial power. Same issue Porty users have except you need more power heating water from cold and more suction running from the truck.

The other benefit of using the motor from the van is to preheat the fresh water while driving. The waste heat from your vehicle is significant and free.

I would bet the electrical system is 240v but purely conjecture. What do you think Dan, 240v 3 phase?

If the Government would come to own General Motors again you never know what they might do with the Old Van. It is a gas hog so our Government officials may say---no more---. They did tons of illegal/illogical stuff the last time they owned Chrysler and GM.

Building options for the future is a good plan for Hydramaster. It is great they have put several of these units into the field so they are not testing them on customers like so many other products.

Price will be interesting to see...

Main differnce between this and current Hydramaster units... Generator added to vehicle and Electric Motor added. Power transmission and clutch deleted. Seems like it will be a significant upgrade in price, but jumping from costing 25k to 60k? probably not.

 

[dgardner]

What do you think Dan, 240v 3 phase?

I haven't seen any info on the drive system at all - I don't even know if it's AC or DC.... Looking forward to the product introduction and maybe some particulars.

 

[rick imby]

I don't know much about electric motors, but my bet is on 3 phase 220 or 240.

 

[Willy P]

"The Times They Are A-Changin'"

Come gather 'round people
Wherever you roam
And admit that the waters
Around you have grown
And accept it that soon
You'll be drenched to the bone
If your time to you
Is worth savin'
Then you better start swimmin'
Or you'll sink like a stone
For the times they are a-changin'.

Come writers and critics
Who prophesize with your pen
And keep your eyes wide
The chance won't come again
And don't speak too soon
For the wheel's still in spin
And there's no tellin' who
That it's namin'
For the loser now
Will be later to win
For the times they are a-changin'.

Come senators, congressmen
Please heed the call
Don't stand in the doorway
Don't block up the hall
For he that gets hurt
Will be he who has stalled
There's a battle outside
And it is ragin'
It'll soon shake your windows
And rattle your walls
For the times they are a-changin'.

Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land
And don't criticize
What you can't understand
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is
Rapidly agin'
Please get out of the new one
If you can't lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin'.

The line it is drawn
The curse it is cast
The slow one now
Will later be fast
As the present now
Will later be past
The order is
Rapidly fadin'
And the first one now
Will later be last
For the times they are a-changin'.

 

[Papa John]

Thanks, Matt for the info . . .

As a builder of some Electric TM's, I would like some clarification on how the X-drive is 100 times the power of the Mytee ETM, which has equivalent vacuum to a #33 blower, General pump @ 900 PSI, 35 GPM Pump-Out and HX from the Van cooling system.

That would mean it FAR outperforms the AeroTech, Mikey.

I don't think so !!

How's Your ETM hybrid build going Larry? Lets not hijack this post so please respond in a new post.

 

[dgardner]

I don't know much about electric motors, but my bet is on 3 phase 220 or 240.

Definitely a possibility - although soft start (mentioned in the brochure) is also possible with a DC motor....

 

[Zee]

In Europe when we were building a house, we had a concrete mixer that was hooked up to -if I recall correctly - 3 phase 380v.

That should be able to run a blower and pump.

 

[The Great Oz]

It seems like in this industry more than others, individuals have a hard time with change. I've had customers who have tried the same exact product that was private labeled in a different bottle and said it wasn't as good as the product he was used to. It's a very interesting quirk in our industry, and I really think HydraMaster is making a machine that is going to change this industry.

This development is important to anyone that has become accustomed to using a CDS. Once you get used to the reliability and space efficiency it's tough to go back to a slide in, so I've been concerned about how long GM would continue to sell their current van. I'm happy they're saying they'll build it for at least three more years, but then what? Only the fact that the current GM van is selling like crazy keeps it in production, at some point we're going to have to use a newer layout, and electric power transfer is a way to future proof the CDS. Although we're happy with the reliability of the GM, I hear good things from owners of both Transits and ProMasters, and the lower load floor could save some back strain... and it would be nice to have the option of choosing another vehicle.

Not sure there's going to be much change from the perspective of the user though. Looks like the same general unit using a different method of getting motion to the unit from the van engine. Reliability will be a key to acceptance, as will keeping the cost down.

PS: Ford vans are on sale right now, while GM is adding $2k to their pricing, so maybe a more expensive CDS in a cheaper vehicle works out.

 

[dgardner]

 

[Larry Cobb]

Dave;
All current TM's have silencers restricting the performance both in CFM and lift.
We tested both the #33 blower direct-drive TM and the Mytee ETM @100 ft of 2" hose in this test.
Lift at the identical wand was slightly higher with the ETM.

More info @ http://www.cobbcarpet.com/zen/index.php?main_page=document_general_info&cPath=63&products_id=5132

 

[doylebloss]

We appreciate Matt for stepping out to provide his thoughts in his blog.
First off, I think the politically correct term that could be applied to a rare few cleaners (obviously no one who reads Mikeysboard ) that could be applied is "slow adopters." Just drop by our booth sometime at a trade show and you will find us still trying to convince some people of why they might prefer a shearing effect upholstery tool over their old squirt and suck tool, why a truckmount is usually more productive to run (thus making more money per hour) that their favorite portable, or even why they should be using a prespray instead of just running Formula whatever through their extraction machine. My guess is that some cleaners will be "afraid" of the new technology that the CDS XDRIVE brings to the marketplace initially. In many cases it might be because they feel like they have been used as "guinea pigs" in the past with the introduction of new technology. That is why the product won't be released until it reaches our established milestones in beta testing.
As far as specifics to the CDS XDRIVE, we will certainly be providing more information as the product gets closer to release following successful beta testing. I can tell you it will be around $65,000 WITH the van, installed and with a linex lining. We can make a special edition where the machine only costs $65,000 for those of you who want special racing stripes on yours.

 

[Cleanworks]

I'm not sure I understand the reasoning behind a ETM. I have no doubt, that with the correct amount and alignment of vacuums, you could achieve truck mount like performance but when you add all the components together, with a decent heat source and recovery tank, maybe a generator and all you have is the performance of an entry level truck mount, why don't you just buy the entry level tm? Looks like the price is about the same.

 

[ruff]

Certainly the times are a changing that's for sure. Even if Bob didn't say so.
However change for change's sake is a "silly thing". Happy that someone is developing an alternative, always a good thing.

Human nature, however, does not change.

We will make the change to a different machine only if it:

1. Performs better, therefore pays for itself through increased production.
2. Priced better.
3. Gives us more options, as to operating, more choices in purchasing vehicles etc.
4. Better use of space in van.
5. Better durability and reliability.
   
6. Stokes our ego or gives us a marketing advantage.
7. Marketed so well, as to dazzle and suspend our common sense.

In other words: What's in it for me?

 

[Bob Pruitt]

The bottle neck to the next new thing in my opinion is the lack of support for diesel. I would prefer diesel vans over gasoline vans but for some reason equipment manufacturers can't seem to get the heat from them to make it work. Hydra master and Sapphire Scientific are both using the Kubota 32 horse power gasoline tractor engine in their machines but Kubota makes the same size motor in diesel. Equipment would last twice as long. A CDS unit in a van would take twice as long to wear out the van. Even if the electric truck mount did catch on the cost would only be justified if the truck was running diesel...in my opinion. Trains hauling boxcars have had diesel electric for a very long time. End of rant.

 

[FB7777]

I just dropped a Jasper rebuild in my 11 year old van for $6 grand

That included a tune-up, water pump, oil pump... Soup to nuts


Truck should last another 5-7 years easy

Who needs diesel???....

 

[Mrice]

I don't proclaim to know half of what you guys know but I'm not understanding the differences between the mytee ETM coupled with the 5k dollar under the hood truck mounted generator and this ETM. That would be about 10K for the mytee and generator, plus the van of course. I've got the Mytee ETM, works fine to 150 for me.

 

[rick imby]

Mrice
The difference is this is a complete package. The power of a blower vs vacuum motors. The Mytee doesn't include heat, however a LG propane is a fairly simple addition.

This system will probably use the engine coolant to preheat the water and then it will harvest heat from the engine and or blower exhaust.

I am looking forward to updates on the information on these. Any News on Pricing and more Technical?

 

[rick imby]

I just dropped a Jasper rebuild in my 11 year old van for $6 grand

That included a tune-up, water pump, oil pump... Soup to nuts


Truck should last another 5-7 years easy

Who needs diesel???....

Why not the $800 a month plan for 3 years?

 

[FB7777]

Leasing is for poor people

 

[rick imby]

Oh come on Ross Perot made his first Billion in Leasing. They cannot make any money at those prices----just kidding...

 

[FB7777]

Plenty of money in leasing...

Payday lending and loan sharking are lucrative as well

Depends on which side of the transaction you're on

 

[Onfire_02_01]

I wonder if running a belt thru the floor (instead of the fire wall) to a pulley mounted on a drive shaft would work. Or maybe an additional drive shaft.

A pulley mounted to the drive shaft would not work because when stationary the drive shaft doesn't turn, only when moving, it comes after the tranny not before. An additional drive shaft could work however there isn't enough room under the van to put one in. The body of the van is molded around the current components and putting an additional one in would lower the clearance of the vehicle. imagine the words coming out of someone's mouth when their brand new unit just got high centered on a speed bump and a few pieces are on the ground.

 

[Cleanworks]

Ford transits are available with a hydraulic power take off

 

[Onfire_02_01]

Supposedly that is what cleanco is working on (or so the grapevine has told me) but the hydraulic didn't work out too well for prochem. I heard that hoses corroded way to fast and would blow out driving down the road. (this was before my time so I never got to see one) but it sounds to me like more of a hose problem than a design problem.

 

[Cleanworks]

There were a few hydraulic units made by different manufacturers. Most were poorly engineered. Take a look at proper hydraulic machinery, like really big stuff such as cranes/front end loaders/dump trucks/etc. They all use hydraulics and perform great with regular maintenance. Can a hose blow? Sure but so can anything. If you follow a regular maintenance program and change hoses and fitting when required, you shouldn't have any problems. Your hydraulic pump can run off the fan belt just like a power take off, you run your hoses to the hydraulic motor that powers the blower and pump, make sure you have a large enough reservoir to provide proper cooling and most important, have it designed by a hydraulic engineer who knows what the unit has to do on a regular basis.

 

[Onfire_02_01]

There were a few hydraulic units made by different manufacturers. Most were poorly engineered. Take a look at proper hydraulic machinery, like really big stuff such as cranes/front end loaders/dump trucks/etc. They all use hydraulics and perform great with regular maintenance. Can a hose blow? Sure but so can anything. If you follow a regular maintenance program and change hoses and fitting when required, you shouldn't have any problems. Your hydraulic pump can run off the fan belt just like a power take off, you run your hoses to the hydraulic motor that powers the blower and pump, make sure you have a large enough reservoir to provide proper cooling and most important, have it designed by a hydraulic engineer who knows what the unit has to do on a regular basis.

Designed by someone who knows what they are doing. That is just crazy talk right there!