Who is running a SS 454, 460 or 570, or a TCS Chief2 Diesel?

[Ron Werner]

I'm reinstalling in a newer truck and having "issues" with getting propane hookup approved. Long story.
Love the propane and performance, just a PITA when they say the LG is unsafe and will blow up! yeah, right.

Anyway, investigating the Sapphire units. How are they performing heat and vacuum wise?
Can a 15 flow wand at 500-600psi get a consistent 200F-220F?
How has the maintenance been?
Fuel consumption?
Hows the vacuum on a 300ft run?

I'm also looking at the TCS Chief2 Diesel, because the truck is diesel this means just one fuel.
The boiler is a concern wrt to the steel coil rusting and the consistency of heat with the relatively short flow times when wanding, esp when doing furniture.

Any feedback?

 

[hogjowl]

Steve Cameron has the Chief II diesel. Haven't seen him in a long time though.

 

[GeneMiller]

Does somebody from dot actually inspect it. What a pain if that's true. Why is it a problem this time and not before . Just curious. Sorry to hear your having problems.

Gene

 

[tmdry]

I know the feeling Ron.

I've had both little giants and diesel heaters. Actually had less issues w/ the diesel (northstar) than the LG's. If it wasn't for the extra cord on the northstar it would've been a perfect setup.

We now have 2 TNT's, and a Vortex. The V is still getting worked on. The main TNT has no heater...we removed the LG after the coil blew for the 3rd time, and we were just done w/ that headache. If it wasn't for the 360i, we wouldn't be able to clean carpets well. We need to re-arrange the van setups to allow for the diesel heater to fit inside, but we're done w/ LG.

We've used a local distributor truck w/ the 454 and the 360i, and it was steaming the whole room, did a great job.

I would personally buy a machine w/ a warranty vs a small company. The Sapphire gives 2-3 years warranty, that's the way I'd go.

 

[Ron Werner]

The coil blowing is one of the main concerns of the " Safety authority", I can see it blowing out but they fear it would "explode".
5 yrs ago it was all installed and propane hooked up by a automotive mechanic. The equipment was never in question. The rules changed in 2011, so had my truck not been in an accident where I had to reinstall, I'd still be working with it. Propane is a nice clean fuel, no soot, lots of heat, but too darn many regulations about it.

 

[tmdry]

I remember when Chavez used to say how he ran the propane heater units back in the day but with having employees it is just much simpler w/out having to deal with it. Now I can see what he means by that.

 

[Jim Martin]

I run a 570....IMO it is the best one out there....... built strong....all the heat you need........great vacuum.................

 

[Ron Werner]

I've been looking at them. It appears the only difference between the 454 , the 460, and the 570 is the engine used.
the 454: 35 HP Briggs and Stratton
460: 35 HP air cooled Kohler
570: 31 HP liquid cooled Kubota
All gas engines

All three are listed with the Gardner Denver Heliflow 408 Helical Tri-lobe blower with 16"Hg and 455CFM
General HTS 2016S pump, 1500psi, 5.6 gpm

I guess the engines are increasingly better

 

[hogjowl]

So ... Let me understand this... They all have the same pump and blower? The only difference is the engine?

You couldn't pay me to own another Brigs. I have an air cooked Kohler now, and have replaced the head gaskets and valve cover gaskets in it.

Seems to me the 570 is the only choice among the Sapphire units mentioned.

 

[Ron Werner]

Apparently so, according to the website.
When I talked to a guy at Sapphire, he said the only one with the helical blower was the 570. So I'd have to verify that.
They have an oil cooler/HX on them so that should make the air cooled engines last longer. They did what I was thinking of doing on my Kohler. Apparently it drops the oil temp 40 degrees.

 

[Desk Jockey]

Ron we've run the big Nissan's for decades now and while look over the Legend semi at MF10 Rick Aranda said the 570 would be comparable to what we are used to. Big liquid cooled powerplant plant, that's the one you want.

If you have questions for Rick you can email him at r.aranda@sapphirescienctfic.com He knows the units very well, he used to build them and then moved up to tech support at Prochem for many years.


Propane is safe, we used it has a heating fuel source for many decades with no incident. As an owner op it wouldn't stop me from using it on safety, I'd choose HX merely on less hassle and no secondary fuel costs.

Although if I needed extreme heat, if I cleaned a lot of trashed carpet I think I'd stick with propane or kero like an El Diablo.

 

[GeneMiller]

One advantage to the liquid cooled engines is they are quiet. I can't stand an air cooled motor because of how loud hey are. Ill never go that route again.
Currently looking myself

Gene

 

[Ron Werner]

Well, budget restrictions will prevent me from getting a new unit for the time. The plan is still to get rid of the propane. Not that I didn't trust my Judson, best machine I've ever had, simple, easy to fix, lots of heat and vac. I might be missing it. Had I not got mixed up with a dork with the safety authority that was trying to justify his job before he retired, I probably could have gotten everything hooked up, in a round about way. They are so worried about the Little Giant, calling it dangerous, its going to explode, paranoid buggers. Told them people have been running them for 40yrs without really having much problem, definitely not blowing up! You'd have to be an idiot to blow an LG up.
You guys are lucky in the states, you don't have these issues. If I was down there I'd be hooking this up and running for another 5yrs+

So, the plan is, I've be talking to Don at JOhn's Heat Exchangers, now called TTI Custom Fabrication. I'll be getting a double barrel exhaust heat exhanger and a 25hp gasoline Kohler and refitting the CanAm. I'll have to find a new name for it. This will keep the simplicity without all the switches and wires and keep it so I can still work on it. Plus, I can get service for a gas Kohler but I have to take a ferry to the mainland to find a guy to work on the propane Kohler.

I got 5yrs of almost trouble free operation. Les makes good TMs. Glad I'm keep most of it.

Anyone need a propane Kohler and a 4HT? Don't think I'll be able to ship the propane tanks.

 

[Jim Martin]

I can tell you from first hand experience....the 570 has and will maintain all the heat you need....and all with out using propane.....I have more trouble keeping it cool then I have holding any temp that I want.....

Truth be told the newer 570 at MF was better/safer then mine.....I really like the new temp control that it on it...I think that it is a much better way to go....I even got a hold of Sapphire to see if they would sell me a kit or the parts so I could switch mine over....but they won't.....you still get the heat that you want...its just more controlled and less of a chance of it getting out of control and someone getting hurt....

you are not going to find a better machine then the 570......

 

[hogjowl]

So, they won't help out the best mouthpiece of theirs on the planet? THE guy who is their telephone repair person and free ambassador?

I'm really starting to distrust those guys.

I'm still shaking my head over the Gargan debacle, and nor I see they won't help even you!

 

[Jim Martin]

I don't work for Sapphire..and I don't get commission for anything out of the sapphire barn that sales just because I like it.......
I share what I like and how well things are built.......

Just because I am out spoken about how great I think the 570 is..does not in any way give me any special treatment.......

In the end I am carpet cleaner just like everyone else....if they don't make a kit to switch them over then they don't...just the way it is.......

 

[hogjowl]

Never said you were being paid. Never even hinted it. In fact, the words "free ambassador" should have made that clear.

 

[Ron Werner]

If I had the $s, the 570 would be a good replacement. My Big Red was like that, more trouble keeping it cool.

Talked with a local cleaner that runs a ChiefII diesel. He said that burner really put out the heat when he was using his rotary, but it got to be a challenge when he was cleaning furniture or doing stairs. That low flow and repetitive ON-OFF really messed it up. Its all in the flow switch with those pressure washer heaters. Need a way for the temp control to override the flow switch. That and the occasional rust issue.

 

[Nate The Great]

If I had the $s, the 570 would be a good replacement. My Big Red was like that, more trouble keeping it cool.

Talked with a local cleaner that runs a ChiefII diesel. He said that burner really put out the heat when he was using his rotary, but it got to be a challenge when he was cleaning furniture or doing stairs. That low flow and repetitive ON-OFF really messed it up. Its all in the flow switch with those pressure washer heaters. Need a way for the temp control to override the flow switch. That and the occasional rust issue.

The SS coil had me looking at the unit...

[url]http://www.silvereaglemanufacturing.com/carpet_cleaning.html


[/URL]

 

[Ron Werner]

what I got thinking when I was looking at their complete pressure washing units is that they are using 30hp engine in some, that's enough to drive a blower as well.
I still think those units will have a challenge when using lower flow and faster On-Off. When you trigger the wand for only 10seconds that's all the time it has to burn. When you release the trigger the flow switch shuts it down, The LG burns perfectly even for low flow cleaning

 

[Nate The Great]

what I got thinking when I was looking at their complete pressure washing units is that they are using 30hp engine in some, that's enough to drive a blower as well.
I still think those units will have a challenge when using lower flow and faster On-Off. When you trigger the wand for only 10seconds that's all the time it has to burn. When you release the trigger the flow switch shuts it down, The LG burns perfectly even for low flow cleaning

Flow switch... http://www.***************/power-flow-switch-convert-pressure-washer-carpet-cleaning-p-11976.html

I hear you on the propane... I love my LG too, but I'm about the pull the trigger on the Northstar Diesel heater... I rather pull into a gas station and fill up the van and heater in 1 shot... My LG #3 heaters only hold 180 degrees constant.... It will spike to 210 degrees on lower flow tools... I want the consistent 230-240 degrees at the wand... I know the LG #4 will do what I need, but filling up is kind of a pain in the butt... Where I can either have Kerosene stocked at the shop or Diesel at the gas station... The heater will be cheaper then a #4 LG...

 

[Ron Werner]

just need a bigger propane tank. I'll send you mine. You can clean all day long. I got more than 10hrs actual cleaning running both engine and LG.

You want consistency but the kero burners won't really be much better. You'll get your 240 but it may drop down to 180 before it comes back up again.

 

[Nate The Great]

just need a bigger propane tank. I'll send you mine. You can clean all day long. I got more than 10hrs actual cleaning running both engine and LG.

You want consistency but the kero burners won't really be much better. You'll get your 240 but it may drop down to 180 before it comes back up again.

I'll just hold the trigger down and not let go then..........

 

[Jim Martin]

Never said you were being paid. Never even hinted it. In fact, the words "free ambassador" should have made that clear.

I am sure you understand my point.............

 

[FB7777]

I can tell you from first hand experience....the 570 has and will maintain all the heat you need....and all with out using propane.....I have more trouble keeping it cool then I have holding any temp that I want.....

Truth be told the newer 570 at MF was better/safer then mine.....I really like the new temp control that it on it...I think that it is a much better way to go....I even got a hold of Sapphire to see if they would sell me a kit or the parts so I could switch mine over....but they won't.....you still get the heat that you want...its just more controlled and less of a chance of it getting out of control and someone getting hurt....

you are not going to find a better machine then the 570......

Jim, are you talking about the manual heat diverter plate? I thought that feature was excellent. No electronics is always a better option.

 

[Jim Martin]

Jim, are you talking about the manual heat diverter plate? I thought that feature was excellent. No electronics is always a better option.

It is a great idea and a great set up.........it is a much better idea to control the heat this machine can give you..........
mine can get out of control if not careful....I can bury that needle with out even trying to the point it is just to hot to handle the hose at times.....

IMO...that's just crazy....cooking my hose and my valves....vapors my hydraforce...and this machine has no problems holding it or spiking it back up if it drops some........

you want heat..with out the propane headache........this is the machine to run..............and the new heat control set up is much much better........

 

[FB7777]

Good gawd thats hot!

Be nice in the middle of a New England winter, but not in the desert.

How does your machine control the heat now?

 

[Jim Martin]

Good gawd thats hot!

Be nice in the middle of a New England winter, but not in the desert.

How does your machine control the heat now?

I have that thermostat control knob on it.....you have to pay close attention to where you put it and what you are cleaning....
If I am cleaning carpets with the high flow Hoss and I have it wide open.....I set my stat on 200 and it will hold 220 easy.....once I let off the trigger she will climb....

UPH....is the hardest to control it....I normally just keep it turned all the way off and it will still hit about 180/200.....

my holding tank will over heat and sometimes vapor on me if it gets to far out of control..then I have to stop and work at getting it to cool down and fill the tank....

It took me a bit to get use to where I have to set the dial to keep it more under control....

Like I said months ago....most guys fight to get heat and keep it....I fight to keep mine cooled down.............

 

[Ron Werner]

thats what I'll miss from the 4HT, the heat control, without having to worry about it running away or getting too cool.
I had no problems getting fuel so that wasn't an issue. well, it "wasn't" an issue till I talked to the wrong guy

 

[Desk Jockey]

Ron can't you just take it to someone else for the install? or Is it new regulations and all the places are the same? Can you have it installed in the US and drive back over or will they still hassle you?