Greg Cole
Member
So what about xactimate? Will it be categorized like axial, centrifugal? Will the rental price be enough to warrant the arm, leg and toe that the manufacturer will be asking?
A new Airmover?
- Thread starter Desk Jockey
- Start date
Mikey P
Administrator
John, make sure Tim brings one to MF.
Desk Jockey
Member
It's supposed to have an air scrubber attachment too. Iseeru
R
rotovacguy
Guest
Bill Bruders said:
Bill Bruders
Supportive Member
No sleep being lost here. That concept has been explored as well in depth and has some significant draw backs. It also runs in direct conflict with the 2700 CFM claim. If you consider the size of the air acrubbers in the industry that are 1000 CFM (let alone 2000) you know they are dang near as big as a refrigerator. Why? Because the filter has to be sized to the air flow. It would appear that this air scrubber is about the size of the HEPA 500 which is 500 CFM filter rating or you loose HEPA performance. Tells us a little bit about the power of the Triad.
Desk Jockey
Member
So it really can't be moving more than 500cfm for the HEPA to work correctly?
Bill Bruders
Supportive Member
Richard
I haven't tested the unit but I can say we use the same blade design in the HEPA 500 and many other products. We first started using this blade design in 2002 on the Air Wolf so we know the fan technology well. As for the filter capacity there are certification tests that will determine its efficiency however you must have a specific about of filter service space calculated against air flow to achieve HEPA performance. It appears they have a damper in the inlet to control airflow but I suspect this is for balancing a negative air environment not to reduce overall airflow to meet HEPA.
Time will tell of course but since it takes 3 amps of electricity using this type of backward inclined fan design to produce a 500 CFM certified HEPA filter (HEPA 500) and they are claiming 1.48 (why not 1.5?) seems pretty unlikely to me.
I haven't tested the unit but I can say we use the same blade design in the HEPA 500 and many other products. We first started using this blade design in 2002 on the Air Wolf so we know the fan technology well. As for the filter capacity there are certification tests that will determine its efficiency however you must have a specific about of filter service space calculated against air flow to achieve HEPA performance. It appears they have a damper in the inlet to control airflow but I suspect this is for balancing a negative air environment not to reduce overall airflow to meet HEPA.
Time will tell of course but since it takes 3 amps of electricity using this type of backward inclined fan design to produce a 500 CFM certified HEPA filter (HEPA 500) and they are claiming 1.48 (why not 1.5?) seems pretty unlikely to me.
John Olson
Member
Nearly 6 years of R&D and 70% of Karchers R&D Budget (Karcher is a 10 billion dollar company) do you really think they didn't get it right? There are alot more things coming and none of it is like anything that is currently out there. Somethings they will take market share and somethings they will be the market, since there is nothing like it.
Change is good for everyone it pushes everyone to do better.
For the Steve G's of the world (I count steve as a trusted friend) The price of things reflect how much it cost to bring it to the market. While something may only cost $100 to produce after the design is final there was millions of dollars in R&D to get to that point. I am sure Bill can tell you how long it takes and how many airmovers they have to sell before they begin to make money. I would bet it is in the 15-20k range before they even see a small profit.
Bill can you share that number or tell me if I am at least in the right ball park?
Change is good for everyone it pushes everyone to do better.
For the Steve G's of the world (I count steve as a trusted friend) The price of things reflect how much it cost to bring it to the market. While something may only cost $100 to produce after the design is final there was millions of dollars in R&D to get to that point. I am sure Bill can tell you how long it takes and how many airmovers they have to sell before they begin to make money. I would bet it is in the 15-20k range before they even see a small profit.
Bill can you share that number or tell me if I am at least in the right ball park?
Desk Jockey
Member
Not trying to be a pain in the ass, I own Prochem equipment and use their chems but I have never considered them a player in the Water Damage equipment business.
Those units might be great, but I'll wait and see what those that buy them say before I buy them.
John Olson
Member
Doc Holliday said:
Me Too Richard. Why I am not sure why Bill is trashing them so bad. I have never heard Prochem say a bad word about them or anyone else. They either do what they say or they don't but as a bettting man I would put my money on that they do work. You don't spend millions of dollars on something and not have it right before releasing it. You might as well have build a bonfire with the money.
I am sure your distributor will "give" you a couple to run for a couple weeks to get your feeback. I'm not investing my money in something that I am not 100% sure of so there will be a half dozen of them out in the field before I go ordering anything. I have Dri-Eaz in stock that I KNOW works (Bill you can check my ordering I buy a lot of Blue Soldiers) For the guys that want less $$$ I have Mytee and Viking, Steve G and everyone else the Omni Dri from Bridgepoint is just a Blue Viking just as the Phoenix is a Red Viking. You pay more for the Color.
Desk Jockey
Member
I don't see Bill as trashing them, he just has knowledge of this type of equipment and said it has been introduced before and didn't go over well.
Since we're all friends here, and aren't gonna get sand in our clit if one of us is wrong, I publicly call bullshit on the Amp and CFM claims, you can not cheat mother ohm......70% of R&D or not.
And I don't give a shit about Viking, they can kiss my ass, I'd buy Mytee just because.
And I don't give a shit about Viking, they can kiss my ass, I'd buy Mytee just because.
John Olson
Member
I guess I'm feeling a little squeezed here. Prochem and Dri-Eaz have done more for our little company then anyone else. My Rep Kami from Dri-Eaz and Tim from Prochem have been noting but extraordinary in helping us be Successful.They both mean the world to me. I hope both companies always remember it is a partnership between manf-distributor that makes things work.
If someone is doing more then you it means you need to work harder. We have the worlds biggest supplier 30 minutes from us and yet they are NOT my competition. The only company we have to compete with is ourselves.
If someone is doing more then you it means you need to work harder. We have the worlds biggest supplier 30 minutes from us and yet they are NOT my competition. The only company we have to compete with is ourselves.
Desk Jockey
Member
John, you are in a tough position. You want to be loyal to all those that have supported you.
As I said I feel like I support both of them, but one for WDR and the other for carpet cleaning. So I'm going to be a skeptical of one stepping outside of what I consider what they do best.
I also recall them promoting a certain less than professional instructor, so they can make mistakes no matter how many billion dollars their sales are. However I have to give them credit, they are also capable of making changes when needed.
As I said I feel like I support both of them, but one for WDR and the other for carpet cleaning. So I'm going to be a skeptical of one stepping outside of what I consider what they do best.
I also recall them promoting a certain less than professional instructor, so they can make mistakes no matter how many billion dollars their sales are. However I have to give them credit, they are also capable of making changes when needed.
John Olson
Member
Greenie said:
And thats whats great about this you can't make claims unless you can prove them and I am completely sure Prochem wouldn't make a claim that can't be backed up now with that Greenie you have what electrical engineering degree and how much time have you spent with the motor and thrust fan technology to make back up your statement? Just asking :wink:
Richard that experiment is over. It did bring some good things but the bad out weighed the good and it had to go away.
steve g
Member
ok lets not paint bill bruders as attacking prochem, personally I am a glade we have him here as a poster, I actually love his comments it makes no difference if they agree or disagree with my comments. I don't feel bill attacked anyone. I think what he is saying is from his research he doesn't see how its possible. manufacturers flat out do lie about the specs of their equipment, I will say it again phoenix equipment LIES about their specs, I personally know it, and when called out on it, have no response which tells me they know and are doing it on purpose. frankly I have no problem with bill bruders pointing out facts and differences between his equipment and others.
to me it looks clear that legends brands and prochem are setting themselves up for a showdown, both companies likely see they need an all inclusive line of equipment to compete, prochem needed WD equipment, drieaz needed TM equipment. this can only be good for our industry. both companies have an extensive dealer network so it only makes sense for them to offer WD and TM equipment. I think the biggest reason prochem as been the most successful is because they offer a truckmount line and a full chemical line, both being good products.
john, I would assume you have seen the prochem air movers run? did the air flow seem comparable to a standard snail type fan??
to me it looks clear that legends brands and prochem are setting themselves up for a showdown, both companies likely see they need an all inclusive line of equipment to compete, prochem needed WD equipment, drieaz needed TM equipment. this can only be good for our industry. both companies have an extensive dealer network so it only makes sense for them to offer WD and TM equipment. I think the biggest reason prochem as been the most successful is because they offer a truckmount line and a full chemical line, both being good products.
john, I would assume you have seen the prochem air movers run? did the air flow seem comparable to a standard snail type fan??
Chris Muetterties
Member
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2006
- Messages
- 1,652
I wonder if they are made in CHINA like the POS Procaps ?Doc Holliday said:
I can not check cfm. but i can check amps, and that is the first clue.
And I never let that engineering degree stop me from shaking up the industry a little before. :wink:
Have you got any idea just how stoopit someone is gonna look when that ameter doesn't read 1.49 running amps?
I'm gonna have to buy Tim a few beers to make it up to him....Sorry Tim, some warriors just take shots for the brass sitting behind engineering tables.
And I never let that engineering degree stop me from shaking up the industry a little before. :wink:
Have you got any idea just how stoopit someone is gonna look when that ameter doesn't read 1.49 running amps?
I'm gonna have to buy Tim a few beers to make it up to him....Sorry Tim, some warriors just take shots for the brass sitting behind engineering tables.
Mikey P
Administrator
M6F is gonna be a hoot.
Out of Character - 0
Member
Chris Muetterties said:
After the failure they called the Rombus. I sure loved my Windsor Flexamatics, with their tiny little bags, for the 100hrs they lasted.
Sorry, just venting, I feel let down by Windsor.
Nate The Great
Member
I wonder if they are made in CHINA like the POS Procaps ?[/quote:hq5neos6]Chris Muetterties said:
Or the black Air Paths with the 2 screws to hold the handle on and can't stand on the side? And you can't carry it by the handle without having fear about it breaking? But whose really counting?
Desk Jockey
Member
and a bread rack.......I mean a dolly. :wink:
John Olson
Member
Re: A new Air mover?
LOL No Richard they are not selling Dollys. That is a standard Furniture Dolly they used to show how many you can carry at one time.
And everyone felt let down by Windsor. Karcher has been over hauling that company. Chris, Windsor has nothing to do with Prochem nor their air movers so no they are not being made in China but right here in the USA at the Denver Prochem Facility.
I know it doesn't help you Chris but Prochem demanded changes to the Pro Caps and Windsor complied. The last 2 I have sold are being used daily with no issues but they are washing them down and lubing them daily which should eliminate any chance of corrosion along with the change in the aluminum they used. I wish I could have made something happen for you but Rick G is the Windsor guy and he really was the only one that could fix it for you.
LOL No Richard they are not selling Dollys. That is a standard Furniture Dolly they used to show how many you can carry at one time.
And everyone felt let down by Windsor. Karcher has been over hauling that company. Chris, Windsor has nothing to do with Prochem nor their air movers so no they are not being made in China but right here in the USA at the Denver Prochem Facility.
I know it doesn't help you Chris but Prochem demanded changes to the Pro Caps and Windsor complied. The last 2 I have sold are being used daily with no issues but they are washing them down and lubing them daily which should eliminate any chance of corrosion along with the change in the aluminum they used. I wish I could have made something happen for you but Rick G is the Windsor guy and he really was the only one that could fix it for you.
Desk Jockey
Member
Lee Stockwell
FOJL
Jeff's on the money. You don't need a degree to understand and respect basic physics and electrical relationships.
Remember that rectal thermometers have "degrees"....and you know where they stick them.
Thanks,
Lee Stockwell
MSU IEEE secretary, 1992-5
Remember that rectal thermometers have "degrees"....and you know where they stick them.
Thanks,
Lee Stockwell
MSU IEEE secretary, 1992-5
Desk Jockey
Member
A few more photo's.
Desk Jockey
Member
