Carpet Cleaning Safety Concern.... and Possible Solution...??

[alexcarpets]

Hey folks, new member here with this officially being my first post! So I’m looking to purchase my first carpet cleaning machine, and vehicle, and have a concern. I am not comfortable with the idea of breathing in fumes from a slide in machine. So why not just go with a direct drive? Because according to the HydraMaster CDS 4.8 users manual, "The engine exhaust from this product contains chemicals known to the State of California to cause cancer, birth defects or other reproductive harm”. It goes on to direct users no to “…occupy the vehicle when the cleaning equipment is operating” due to the release of toxic fumes.

A couple of items I’d like to dissect here:

1.) If this is a direct drive system, where are the toxic fumes coming from? Isn’t the whole purpose of a direct drive to be powered off the vehicle engine, and thus, exhausts being existed via the catalytic converter, and exhaust pipe of the vehicle? The fumes the CDS 4.8 manual is referring to, where are these fumes coming from?

2.) I do have a solution in mind, and though unconventional, it may work….. I just wanted to run it by you guys first for your expert opinion. Possible Solution? I’m thinking of setting up a slide-in unit into the back of a 10 foot box truck. The truck is i.) Small, and just barely larger than a Chevy Express, and ii.) Has a cargo box that is completely separated from the drivers cabin. For further isolation, and proper expulsion of the fumes, I am considering doing the following: i.) Buying a RV Ceiling fan, and cutting a hole in the roof of the box to ventilate any fumes, and ii.) Cutting out an exhaust hole on the floor of the box truck and running a hose to route all fumes directly under, and out, of the box truck. Will this work?

I am really hoping to get some ideas and feedback on the above. For context (…and I should have said this earlier…) I am just trying to be extra cautious. I have a family member that has cancer, and while nothing can guarantee I won’t get it, I just want to take some precautionary measures to play it safe.

Interested in your thoughts, and I appreciate your feedback!



Thanks in advance!

Alex

 

[Mikey P]

Hey folks, new member here with this officially being my first post! So I’m looking to purchase my first carpet cleaning machine, and vehicle, and have a concern. I am not comfortable with the idea of breathing in fumes from a slide in machine. So why not just go with a direct drive? Because according to the HydraMaster CDS 4.8 users manual, "The engine exhaust from this product contains chemicals known to the State of California to cause cancer, birth defects or other reproductive harm”. It goes on to direct users no to “…occupy the vehicle when the cleaning equipment is operating” due to the release of toxic fumes.

A couple of items I’d like to dissect here:

1.) If this is a direct drive system, where are the toxic fumes coming from? Isn’t the whole purpose of a direct drive to be powered off the vehicle engine, and thus, exhausts being existed via the catalytic converter, and exhaust pipe of the vehicle? The fumes the CDS 4.8 manual is referring to, where are these fumes coming from?

2.) I do have a solution in mind, and though unconventional, it may work….. I just wanted to run it by you guys first for your expert opinion. Possible Solution? I’m thinking of setting up a slide-in unit into the back of a 10 foot box truck. The truck is i.) Small, and just barely larger than a Chevy Express, and ii.) Has a cargo box that is completely separated from the drivers cabin. For further isolation, and proper expulsion of the fumes, I am considering doing the following: i.) Buying a RV Ceiling fan, and cutting a hole in the roof of the box to ventilate any fumes, and ii.) Cutting out an exhaust hole on the floor of the box truck and running a hose to route all fumes directly under, and out, of the box truck. Will this work?

I am really hoping to get some ideas and feedback on the above. For context (…and I should have said this earlier…) I am just trying to be extra cautious. I have a family member that has cancer, and while nothing can guarantee I won’t get it, I just want to take some precautionary measures to play it safe.

Interested in your thoughts, and I appreciate your feedback!



Thanks in advance!

Alex

Read this thread

WARNING!!! Carbon Monoxide will KILL YOU!

Every year it seems like a couple carpet cleaners die (or almost kill themselves or others)from carbon monoxide poisoning. Usually in the winter when operating the unit from the warmth and shelter of a garage is more tempting. Don't do it...

mikeysboard.com

 

[FredC]

The cds fumes are the vehicle exhaust. Yes it goes through a cat. No that doesn't remove all harmful combustion byproducts.

The exhaust fumes from a slide in vented top or bottom of a box are still going to be "in the area" while the engine is on and after for a bit (same with van) Having a box will keep you from any lingering fumes as well as other fumes and waste tank smell/particulates while driving...

 

[alexcarpets]

Read this thread

WARNING!!! Carbon Monoxide will KILL YOU!

Every year it seems like a couple carpet cleaners die (or almost kill themselves or others)from carbon monoxide poisoning. Usually in the winter when operating the unit from the warmth and shelter of a garage is more tempting. Don't do it...

mikeysboard.com

@Mikey P , Thank you for sharing this link! It seems to cover the dangers of CO2, so the CDS manual is referring to the dangers of the vehicle engine CO2? If so, that's fine... I just want to make sure there is not alternative fume source. Also, if it is in fact referring to the engine CO2, why would the driver be impacted by this if the fumes are routed via the vehicle exhuast port anyways?

Btw, would love to hear your take on the box truck idea for a slide in, and any possible concerns you may foresee with that?

Thank you again!

 

[alexcarpets]

The cds engines are the vehicle exhaust. Yes it goes through a cat. No that doesn't remove all harmful combustion byproducts.

The exhaust fumes from a slide in vented top or bottom of a box are still going to be "in the area" while the engine is on and after for a bit (same with van) Having a box will keep you from any lingering fumes as well as other fumes and waste tank smell/particulates while driving...

Aside from the exhaust port being cut into the ground, and the RV fan attached to the ceiling, is there anything else you would suggest to minimize the lingering fumes? Having read my original post, do you feel the proposed solution will suffice to achieve my intended goal?

 

[FredC]

Aside from the exhaust port being cut into the ground, and the RV fan attached to the ceiling, is there anything else you would suggest to minimize the lingering fumes? Having read my original post, do you feel the proposed solution will suffice to achieve my intended goal?

CO not CO2 although that is also a byproduct.

It is common for the exhaust to be directed out the door. Putting it vented through the floor will minimize your direct exposure ie. it blowing into your crotch but the exhaust lingers. You may not smell it but it is there. Just as it is around any idling vehicle. It will be most concentrated near the exit point......like the tailpipe of the van on a cds but the thread mike linked to should give you an idea of how far "exhaust" can travel and how it can build up

There isn't much more you can do than direct it out and vent with an ICE engine whether it is van powered, a slide in with cat, or lawnmower engine. It's an engine that is sitting in one spot idling for hours. That said you probably don't give much thought to all the other exhaust fumes around you daily....

 

[Wizardman]

So just curious, why are you so concerned about Fumes? Unless you are parked very close to an open door to wherever you are cleaning you should have no issue. A slide in unit isnt running while you are in the van and you would ideally leave the doors open so the machine can breathe. With a direct drive, there is zero issue. Just like driving your car. Just have to be smart. Lots more concern with breathing in certain chems than fumes from your truckmount. It seem like you are overthinking this.IMO

 

[Mikey P]

Box truck or van, the biggest threat is parking either where the exhaust/ fumes can enter into a home or building.

Its a very easily avoidable situation

A slide-in in a box truck is pretty common and a nice way to go if you need all the extra room, can afford the additional maintenance costs, and have a way to ( safely) keep it from freezing.

 

[Jim Pemberton]

Box truck or van, the biggest threat is parking either where the exhaust/ fumes can enter into a home or building.

Its a very easily avoidable situation

A slide-in in a box truck is pretty common and a nice way to go if you need all the extra room, can afford the additional maintenance costs, and have a way to ( safely) keep it from freezing.

In the coldest regions, in the coldest of weather, we have had units in box vans freeze up during the time between jobs due to the lack of heat produced in the driver-passenger compartment in the front.

 

[Dolly Llama]

to add to the solid advise already given...

doors are generally open while TM is running.
CO and fumes from van engine can enter the cabin more easily.
I figure that's why they suggest not sitting in the van while running??

realistically, I figure you're breathing as much or more when stopped at a traffic light, bank drive thru or in the mile long line at Chick-A-fillet compared to firing up a TM to start cleaning.

and as Wiz mintioned....if cancer is the concern, I'd be less concerned about engine exhaust, and more focused with the chems you'll be exposed to everyday.

..L.T.A.

 

[Mikey P]

In the coldest regions, in the coldest of weather, we have had units in box vans freeze up during the time between jobs due to the lack of heat produced in the driver-passenger compartment in the front.

Great point

 

[BIG WOOD]

Hey folks, new member here with this officially being my first post! So I’m looking to purchase my first carpet cleaning machine, and vehicle, and have a concern. I am not comfortable with the idea of breathing in fumes from a slide in machine. So why not just go with a direct drive? Because according to the HydraMaster CDS 4.8 users manual, "The engine exhaust from this product contains chemicals known to the State of California to cause cancer, birth defects or other reproductive harm”. It goes on to direct users no to “…occupy the vehicle when the cleaning equipment is operating” due to the release of toxic fumes.

A couple of items I’d like to dissect here:

1.) If this is a direct drive system, where are the toxic fumes coming from? Isn’t the whole purpose of a direct drive to be powered off the vehicle engine, and thus, exhausts being existed via the catalytic converter, and exhaust pipe of the vehicle? The fumes the CDS 4.8 manual is referring to, where are these fumes coming from?

2.) I do have a solution in mind, and though unconventional, it may work….. I just wanted to run it by you guys first for your expert opinion. Possible Solution? I’m thinking of setting up a slide-in unit into the back of a 10 foot box truck. The truck is i.) Small, and just barely larger than a Chevy Express, and ii.) Has a cargo box that is completely separated from the drivers cabin. For further isolation, and proper expulsion of the fumes, I am considering doing the following: i.) Buying a RV Ceiling fan, and cutting a hole in the roof of the box to ventilate any fumes, and ii.) Cutting out an exhaust hole on the floor of the box truck and running a hose to route all fumes directly under, and out, of the box truck. Will this work?

I am really hoping to get some ideas and feedback on the above. For context (…and I should have said this earlier…) I am just trying to be extra cautious. I have a family member that has cancer, and while nothing can guarantee I won’t get it, I just want to take some precautionary measures to play it safe.

Interested in your thoughts, and I appreciate your feedback!



Thanks in advance!

Alex

Do you plan on sitting in your van/box truck during the job? If not, don't worry about cutting a hole in your roof for an fan on top. Pointless and ugly. It is a good idea to cut a hole in the floor and install an elbow pipe underneath to blow the exhaust away from the operator but not towards the fuel tank to prevent air lock.

As for the cause of cancer. Everything causes cancer in this country. Have you stopped drinking sugar soda drinks, food and drinks with red dye, bleached white sugar foods, foods with fake sweeteners and syrups, etc? Do you smoke, drink alcohol heavy, have petroleum based air fresheners in your home, dryer sheets, etc? Cleaning carpet with a truck mount is no worse than any of the above.

As for the risk of breathing in fumes that might enter the facility where you're cleaning, park at a minimum 35ft, preferably 50ft away from the entrance point where your hoses are entering the building

 

[Jim Pemberton]

Hey folks, new member here with this officially being my first post! So I’m looking to purchase my first carpet cleaning machine, and vehicle, and have a concern. I am not comfortable with the idea of breathing in fumes from a slide in machine. So why not just go with a direct drive? Because according to the HydraMaster CDS 4.8 users manual, "The engine exhaust from this product contains chemicals known to the State of California to cause cancer, birth defects or other reproductive harm”. It goes on to direct users no to “…occupy the vehicle when the cleaning equipment is operating” due to the release of toxic fumes.

A couple of items I’d like to dissect here:

1.) If this is a direct drive system, where are the toxic fumes coming from? Isn’t the whole purpose of a direct drive to be powered off the vehicle engine, and thus, exhausts being existed via the catalytic converter, and exhaust pipe of the vehicle? The fumes the CDS 4.8 manual is referring to, where are these fumes coming from?

2.) I do have a solution in mind, and though unconventional, it may work….. I just wanted to run it by you guys first for your expert opinion. Possible Solution? I’m thinking of setting up a slide-in unit into the back of a 10 foot box truck. The truck is i.) Small, and just barely larger than a Chevy Express, and ii.) Has a cargo box that is completely separated from the drivers cabin. For further isolation, and proper expulsion of the fumes, I am considering doing the following: i.) Buying a RV Ceiling fan, and cutting a hole in the roof of the box to ventilate any fumes, and ii.) Cutting out an exhaust hole on the floor of the box truck and running a hose to route all fumes directly under, and out, of the box truck. Will this work?

I am really hoping to get some ideas and feedback on the above. For context (…and I should have said this earlier…) I am just trying to be extra cautious. I have a family member that has cancer, and while nothing can guarantee I won’t get it, I just want to take some precautionary measures to play it safe.

Interested in your thoughts, and I appreciate your feedback!



Thanks in advance!

Alex

Despite responses and how the thread may derail, thank you for your important question and creative input.

Intellectual curiosity is rarely seen these days, and welcome here!

 

[alexcarpets]

So just curious, why are you so concerned about Fumes? Unless you are parked very close to an open door to wherever you are cleaning you should have no issue. A slide in unit isnt running while you are in the van and you would ideally leave the doors open so the machine can breathe. With a direct drive, there is zero issue. Just like driving your car. Just have to be smart. Lots more concern with breathing in certain chems than fumes from your truckmount. It seem like you are overthinking this.IMO

The concern stems from the fumes lingering. I guess my question is, how would the fumes even get into the vehicle? Is it from the exhaust pipe? Because in a direct drive, all exhaust should be leaving from the exhaust of the vehicle, right? How does adding a direct drive change this? The only thing I can think of is leaving the back doors open and the exhaust from the tailpipe finding its way back to the inside of the vehicle, and eventually to the drivers cabin... at which point, could a air tight partitioner not solve that problem?

 

[alexcarpets]

Box truck or van, the biggest threat is parking either where the exhaust/ fumes can enter into a home or building.

Its a very easily avoidable situation

A slide-in in a box truck is pretty common and a nice way to go if you need all the extra room, can afford the additional maintenance costs, and have a way to ( safely) keep it from freezing.

What additional maintenance would a small box truck present over a cargo van, please? I'm not sure, and I thought the only difference was the physical layout. My understanding is under the hood, the 10 foot trucks are pretty similar to a Chevy Express van, for example?

 

[FredC]

The concern stems from the fumes lingering. I guess my question is, how would the fumes even get into the vehicle? Is it from the exhaust pipe? Because in a direct drive, all exhaust should be leaving from the exhaust of the vehicle, right? How does adding a direct drive change this? The only thing I can think of is leaving the back doors open and the exhaust from the tailpipe finding its way back to the inside of the vehicle, and eventually to the drivers cabin... at which point, could a air tight partitioner not solve that problem?

If the machine is running usually the doors are open (back/side) allowing exhaust to enter/be pulled into the vehicle

you aren't likely to create an airtight partition

 

[alexcarpets]

to add to the solid advise already given...

doors are generally open while TM is running.
CO and fumes from van engine can enter the cabin more easily.
I figure that's why they suggest not sitting in the van while running??

realistically, I figure you're breathing as much or more when stopped at a traffic light, bank drive thru or in the mile long line at Chick-A-fillet compared to firing up a TM to start cleaning.

and as Wiz mintioned....if cancer is the concern, I'd be less concerned about engine exhaust, and more focused with the chems you'll be exposed to everyday.

..L.T.A.

You make a great point, and that actually leads me to my next question.... How safe are these chemicals?

 

[alexcarpets]

Do you plan on sitting in your van/box truck during the job? If not, don't worry about cutting a hole in your roof for an fan on top. Pointless and ugly. It is a good idea to cut a hole in the floor and install an elbow pipe underneath to blow the exhaust away from the operator but not towards the fuel tank to prevent air lock.

As for the cause of cancer. Everything causes cancer in this country. Have you stopped drinking sugar soda drinks, food and drinks with red dye, bleached white sugar foods, foods with fake sweeteners and syrups, etc? Do you smoke, drink alcohol heavy, have petroleum based air fresheners in your home, dryer sheets, etc? Cleaning carpet with a truck mount is no worse than any of the above.

As for the risk of breathing in fumes that might enter the facility where you're cleaning, park at a minimum 35ft, preferably 50ft away from the entrance point where your hoses are entering the building

You make a great point.... my diet sucks btw! LOL But yes, the elbow pipe would be a great idea!

 

[alexcarpets]

Despite here


Despite responses and how the thread may derail, thank you for your important question and creative input.

Intellectual curiosity is rarely seen these days, and welcome here!

Appreciate you! Thank you kindly, Jim!

 

[FredC]

You make a great point, and that actually leads me to my next question.... How safe are these chemicals?

which ones? That varies by chemical, length of exposure, etc Start checking SDS sheets


but the reality is no one really knows the effects one might see in any particular individual with 20-30 years of using any of them .....even the "non-toxic" ones

 

[FredC]

my diet sucks btw! LOL

far more likely to kill you

 

[alexcarpets]

So, I'm looking at bulkheads/partitions in vans (for example, a Chevy Express)... is this a good option? Are there any that are close to air tight? I have found solid partitions, but they have cutouts on the edge so air can easily go from the back to the front, and vice-versa

 

[FredC]

again you aren't likely to find one that is airtight. That is something you would have to modify/seal yourself

it's a good option to reduce heat/smells and keep you from getting hurt in an accident.

 

[alexcarpets]

again you aren't likely to find one that is airtight. That is something you would have to modify/seal yourself

it's a good option to reduce heat/smells and keep you from getting hurt in an accident.

By sealing it, would it significantly reduce the smells, fumes, etc...? How expensive is it to get this done?

 

[FredC]

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but yes a sealed bulkhead would reduce fumes/smell much like having a box. Significantly? I don't know the starting levels. How much to get it done? I don't know as it is probably a project you would have to do yourself by extending the bulkhead for tighter fit in the corners and then caulking/sealing unless you happen to locate one special made.

 

[BIG WOOD]

If you’re concerned that much about it, invest in a tilt cab box truck. Don’t get a van or box van.

 

[Dolly Llama]

You make a great point, and that actually leads me to my next question.... How safe are these chemicals?

depends what you use and how involved you plan to be
PPE (personal protection equipment) nitrile gloves, respirators, etc can mitigate most



I do think you're overthinking the exhaust hazard of internal combustion engines running in an open air environment
(presuming you're not blowing exhaust into the work space)
and that's not a cancer risk in 20 years, it's a DRT (dead right there) risk potential from CO

..L.T.A.

 

[Wizardman]

The concern stems from the fumes lingering. I guess my question is, how would the fumes even get into the vehicle? Is it from the exhaust pipe? Because in a direct drive, all exhaust should be leaving from the exhaust of the vehicle, right? How does adding a direct drive change this? The only thing I can think of is leaving the back doors open and the exhaust from the tailpipe finding its way back to the inside of the vehicle, and eventually to the drivers cabin... at which point, could a air tight partitioner not solve that problem?

So I really think you are worried over something that to most of us is a non-issue. You are likely breathing far more fumes walking thru a busy parking lot, downtown area, parking garage etc than you will from the truckmount or van running. Lets say for instance you are running a direct drive like a butler or CDS unit. I typically especially at night close everything up while im cleaning to prevent theft etc. Thats the nice thing about direct drives. So the only times any fumes might enter is when you are setting up the job or breaking everything down and even then I doubt it would be an issue.

I would suggest finding a local or semi local cleaner, or even one from on here you could go ride with for a day or so and just see what you think. The vaporizing of chemicals while prespraying is much more of an issue.

 

[alexcarpets]

So I really think you are worried over something that to most of us is a non-issue. You are likely breathing far more fumes walking thru a busy parking lot, downtown area, parking garage etc than you will from the truckmount or van running. Lets say for instance you are running a direct drive like a butler or CDS unit. I typically especially at night close everything up while im cleaning to prevent theft etc. Thats the nice thing about direct drives. So the only times any fumes might enter is when you are setting up the job or breaking everything down and even then I doubt it would be an issue.

I would suggest finding a local or semi local cleaner, or even one from on here you could go ride with for a day or so and just see what you think. The vaporizing of chemicals while prespraying is much more of an issue.

I think you're right, and I probably am overthinking it. To be honest, I am still a little confused, as well. Here are my questions and I'm hoping you, or a forum member, can chime in and provide some clarity:

i.) In a direct drive system, the only fumes should be the ones coming out of the exhaust of the vehicle, right? There should be no fumes from the machine itself as all the combustion is taking place in the engine of the vehicle. By that logic, the only time fumes would enter is the exhaust pipe of the vehicle giving off fumes, and the truck doors left open. Is this all correct? Am I missing something?

ii.) Are there any oils in the machine itself that could emit non-combusted fumes? For instance, grease, oil, etc..?

iii.) If a van is fitted with a direct drive unit, can the van be partition sealed? If so, how complex is this, and what is the average cost for something like this? Most importantly, is it even effective?

iv.) The vaporizing of chemicals is something that also came across my mind. I was thinking of wearing PPE and a face mask with a filter, but then I think, is this not going to be a red flag to the customer as they're left wondering why I'm walking around like the masked magician in their home?

v.) I would love to do a ride along. I'm in South Florida and wonder if anyone would be ok with me doing a ride along knowing I am also looking to setup shop?

 

[FredC]

i.) In a direct drive system, the only fumes should be the ones coming out of the exhaust of the vehicle, right? There should be no fumes from the machine itself as all the combustion is taking place in the engine of the vehicle. By that logic, the only time fumes would enter is the exhaust pipe of the vehicle giving off fumes, and the truck doors left open. Is this all correct? Am I missing something?

Assuming no exhaust leaks the only exhaust fume in a pto should be out of the tailpipe.

ii.) Are there any oils in the machine itself that could emit non-combusted fumes? For instance, grease, oil, etc..?

PTO. You would have oil in the blower and the pump. They are not combusted but do get heated and vented into the truck.

*you also have blower exhaust (exits outside), chem fumes, waste tank

iii.) If a van is fitted with a direct drive unit, can the van be partition sealed? If so, how complex is this, and what is the average cost for something like this? Most importantly, is it even effective?

It is unlikely you could fully seal the cab with a pto unit. You have the shaft that comes through and some units have components between the seats.

iv.) The vaporizing of chemicals is something that also came across my mind. I was thinking of wearing PPE and a face mask with a filter, but then I think, is this not going to be a red flag to the customer as they're left wondering why I'm walking around like the masked magician in their home?

It will likely scare some customers. This shouldn't prevent you from wearing PPE as suggested by SDS sheets or to protect your health in general. Explaining to the customer that you are paranoid af about your occupational exposure (which they don't need to be concerned about) before you don the hazmat suit may help.







again cart before horse. Shouldn't you know this is an issue before you devise fixes? Are you going to hold your breath anytime you're around the truck when it's running? You will have the doors open while you are rolling up hoses so any exhaust is likely to dissipate by the time you are in the van


and I hate to mention it but you aren't planning on getting a new van are you