Cimex causing carpet tiles to lift up at seams?

[cleanking]

We have a commercial account that we have serviced monthly since 2013, we've always used the Cimex and DS2. The same team that has serviced this account for 2 years went out on Tuesday night like normal but on Wednesday I received these pictures.

Client is stating that the cleaning caused these carpet tiles to lift up on the edges? I inspected the Cimex and Pads used on this job and nothing seemed out of the ordinary. Not exactly sure why this would have happened or if it is a scenario where there tiles have always been this way but coming back after a week off for the holidays has now made them notice it more?

I'm going out today to inspect, we clean 100's of thousands of square feet every year with this method and have never had an issue in 8 years, leading me to believe that this wasn't caused from the Cimex or cleaning process.

Any insight appreciated. Thanks.

@encapman

 

[Enge]

I don't know if its shaw carpet tile but back around 2009-2012ish. They have a bad batch of tile that would curl like this. Also carpet tile will curl like this when installed over concrete with high moisture in it. Remember high concrete moisture can be in a existing building as well as new construction. How much solution at the guys going through when they clean? Are they running the gravity feed wide open or feathering it?

 

[Mikey P]

Yikes!

Are you dead positive that the Cimex and juice were used just as they were in the past?
My 1st thought was used a solvent rather than an encap, or possibly tried boosting the encap

Lift a tile and inspect for gooey glue

@encapman

 

[Jimmy L]

My first thought was over wetting using that gravity feed. Find out how much juice they used as in gallons of scampoo.

 

[encapman]

The Cimex machine certainly won’t cause carpet tile to lift. In fact that’s one of the things that’s so great about it. Because of the planetary scrubbing action there is no kick on the edges of the tile. You could actually take a loose tile, set it on the floor, and scrub with the Cimex on top of it and it would stay stationary. If carpet tiles are coming loose, it is simply a matter of a poor installation. Poor carpet tile installation is not uncommon. If the floor was not prepped properly the tiles will not stick like they should.

 

[cleanking]

The carpet is roughly 8 years old and we've serviced it monthly for 5 years.

We put down about 1 gallon every 400-500sf, feathering the trigger usually.

I am 100% positive nothing else chemistry wise was used. We mix up 5 gallon jugs of chemical to take to every job and I witnessed them being mixed before the guys went out that night.

I also sent them in our box truck that is not stocked for carpet cleaning at all, it's used for pickup and delivery. So the only chemicals that were on the truck was pre mixed DS2 and Stain 1.

I witnessed the truck being unloaded the following morning and saw that roughly 7 gallons if solution we're used for about 3,000sf of cleaning. Nothing out of the ordinary.

I checked moisture on carpet tiles, everything is dry. The glue under the carpet tiles is completely dry and brittle.

Also interesting is that even in areas we don't clean, under furniture and file cabinets that are never moved we are seeing the same glue failure.

My guess is moisture or heat in the building or slab over time has caused the glue to fail early.

 

[cleanking]

Now to bring out a carpet inspector to prove my theory.

 

[encapman]

From the customer’s perspective… It’s always the fault of the carpet cleaner. Regardless.

 

[Old Coastie]

Jordan, were there any blackouts in Indy over the past month, or were the thermostats turned way down for the holidays, or vacancy or any other reason?

I am wondering if a large thermal swing and resulting contraction/expansion could pop old, brittle glue.

 

[Lee Stockwell]

Single story?

 

[J Scott W]

Jordan, I have an article from a leading inspector - Lew Migliore on the very topic. Send me an email and I will provide a copy of his article. scottw@bridgewatercorp.net

 

[cleanking]

Jordan, were there any blackouts in Indy over the past month, or were the thermostats turned way down for the holidays, or vacancy or any other reason?

I am wondering if a large thermal swing and resulting contraction/expansion could pop old, brittle glue.

That's what I'm thinking has caused them to pop after the cleaning the way they did.

 

[Cleanworks]

That's what I'm thinking has caused them to pop after the cleaning the way they did.

It reminds me of a highrise I just completed. I have been using hwe(portable) for the last 10 years. The last couple of times, we had more buckling than usual. It is a double stick installation and the installation is failing. Every time we wet it out, it expands and contracts, breaking the glue bonds. We encapped it this year with much less problems. At 15 years old, the carpet is on its last legs and needs to be replaced. I think yours is similar. Nothing your guys did, just an installation failure.

 

[randy]

I have run into this many times. I hate carpet tiles with a passion but using a CRB eliminates the issue.

 

[Nomad74]

Watching.

 

[Desk Jockey]

Never seen that in a decade of using Cimex's.

Is this a ground floor install?

 

[Small town janitorial]

Also watching. I have one job I do bi annually with almost identicle tiles. I use my orbot. Always worried about this.

 

[Cleanworks]

Also watching. I have one job I do bi annually with almost identicle tiles. I use my orbot. Always worried about this.

I recently cleaned 27 floors of carpet tiles with my orbot. No problems

 

[dealtimeman]

Thermal camera time or just grab a tile and pull it up, if the glue is whitish then it was either severe over wet or it flooded and nobody told you.

Just pulled up 6500 square feet of new carpet tile we couldn't dry.

Because our particular scenario being the tiles were glued to an elevated data and power floor system they apply glue only to the middle of the tile about two inches from the edge, it allowed water (huge flood thousand of vallas of water) to seep under it through the seams and it looked exactly like your does.

Water will eventually get out of the carpet tiles and this is what that looks like.

 

[Mikey P]

Jordan did you see the floor before your Techs started?

 

[Andy]

The proper glue for carpet tile should not get brittle. The theory behind carpet tile is that if a tile gets damaged just one tile needs to be replaced. Technically all that is supposed to be needed is to pull up the damaged tile and put a new one in its place. If the glue that was used has turned brittle that would make it impossible. Probably an installation issue but this long after the fact the customer is the one that will possibly get stuck.

 

[J Scott W]

These tiles have been in place for some time. They probably were installed properly. If there was an installation issues, any warranty is long passed.

A key advantage of floor tiles is that they can be easily replaced when worn or soiled. All the marketing material for such products says so.

The manufacturers continue to have issues making the tiles stay flat. They just want to curl. According to the manufacturers, the solution is more adhesive, better adhesive, longer lasting adhesive. Some of the new adhesives being recommended by manufacturers will get brittle and lose grip with age. But all that - more adhesive, stronger adhesive - negates the “easily replaceable” appeal.

There may not be enough adhesive. The adhesive may have gotten old enough and begun to give up the fight to hold the tile down. If so, the issue will continue to get worse over time. But manufacturers should be able to deliver a flat tile that does what is advertised – lay flat and be easily replaceable!

Short of flooding, abuse or negligence any other reason given for the failure is the flooring manufacturer trying to shift the blame.

 

[Wing It]

I would think the sub floor being effected by a dramatic change in temperature is the better theory. The idea that over night or between monthly cleanings all the glue breaks down at precisely the same time does not add up. I think something shifted/contracted in the subfloor causing the glue to break down. Maybe, they did not tell you about a few tiles here and there that popped up in the past after you guys cleaned because it was only a few, but now there are so many they are quick to point it out. Good luck! Let us know if you come to a conclusion.

 

[JS41035]

I’ve seen so many bad experiences with carpet tile. Almost every job I’ve cleaned has had tiles pop up. A long time customer was talking with me about installing new carpet. The carpet salesman had him convinced that the squares were the best thing since sliced bread. After all instead of having to replace an entire carpet because of a stain ,you can just replace a single tile. But then I asked him “ In 30 years have you ever had to replace a carpet because of a stain? And if you did would you want a 2x2 square of new carpet in the middle of your restaurant? “ Then I asked him what was the worst part about his existing carpet visually. Of course we both looked down at the seams that had been frayed and worn from 20 years of traffic. “The seams look awful” he said.
“Yeah I agree. So how many hundreds of linear feet of seam are you gonna have if you go with tiles? “. He just smiled,cancelled the tiles and went with a CGD, that looks perfect after 5 years.

 

[encapman]

Nice line of reasoning Justin!

 

[Spurlington]

I have an account that had new squares installed .. shortly after (within 6 months) they started curling. Come to find out, they were using "green" glue which may not be as strong or they did not apply enough down.

 

[Mikey P]

I wonder if they cranked the heat or AC more than normal to dry the carpet..


Radiant heat by chance?

 

[Cleanworks]

Installers often do their own thing. I once had a direct glue down buckle severely. Couldn't understand if it was glued to the concrete. Installation was a year and half old. Had the customer contact the retailer and turns out they "perimeter glued it". Meaning they only glued the edges.

 

[cleanking]

Update: I was out of town Friday and my Technician was off on Thursday. So him and I connected yesterday.

Turns out he has before pictures of the whole thing. It must've happened due to temperature fluctuation. He said he didn't even clean the whole area because of the carpet lifting, just did the areas that are CGD.

I'll still be going back to explain the situation, but good to know we have before pictures showing the glue failure prior to any cleaning.