Ron Lippold
RIP
So tell me whats the worst you have been screwed by not having a written contract to do work???? I live in NM and we live and die by a hand shake. So tell me . I know I wont work without a written contract........ 
Contracts.. The Rest of the story...
- Thread starter Ron Lippold
- Start date
ACE
Member
Re: Contracts
I have not been paid at all and had not proof the work was ever done. I get a work order signed on every job that gets billed from here out. I get signed contracts on all my janitorial accounts so they are easy to sell if I get sick of them.
I have not been paid at all and had not proof the work was ever done. I get a work order signed on every job that gets billed from here out. I get signed contracts on all my janitorial accounts so they are easy to sell if I get sick of them.
Ken Snow
RIP
Re: Contracts
We have never had written contracts for work nor would I ever expect to.
We have never had written contracts for work nor would I ever expect to.
Brian R
Member
Re: Contracts
Unfortunately contacts are just a piece of paper to make you feel safe and MAYBE make the other feel obligated.
Money is in the pocket of the beholder.
Gives a whole new meaning to "it takes money to make (take) money".
Unfortunately contacts are just a piece of paper to make you feel safe and MAYBE make the other feel obligated.
Money is in the pocket of the beholder.
Gives a whole new meaning to "it takes money to make (take) money".
Doug Cox
Supportive Member
Re: Contracts
I have never felt a need to have a contract. Generally people don't want anyone messing with their credit, so if you threaten to or actually put someone in collection, those types will usually pay. The others don't GAS and probably won't pay anyway. I've never been stuck on any large jobs in 30 years.
I have never felt a need to have a contract. Generally people don't want anyone messing with their credit, so if you threaten to or actually put someone in collection, those types will usually pay. The others don't GAS and probably won't pay anyway. I've never been stuck on any large jobs in 30 years.
Jimbo
Member
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- Oct 7, 2006
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- 2,197
Re: Contracts
ok, spill the beans, Ron
Ron Lippold said:So tell me whats the worst you have been screwed by not having a written contract to do work???? I live in NM and we live and die by a hand shake. So tell me . I know I wont work without a written contract........
ok, spill the beans, Ron
Ron Lippold
RIP
Re: Contracts
So this is what happened. I recieved a call from a board member about helping out on a big job several hunderd thousand sq ft. We agree on a price of .13 a sq ft for cleaning. They were going to pick up the hotel and chemicals.
So we drive 1300 miles one way to go help on this project, i brought out my lead tech and a third helper. We get cleaning, yes a big job. We are dual wanding with high flow and the other crew is single wanding.
As we jump ahead to the last day and as we are wrapping up i start to look for my check. Im told that we dont have all the numbers ( I know i should have kept track my self but was told several times that he would keep all the numbers.)
I say well being that we did 60-80 % of the job give me 2/3 of the sq ft. They said no and we will give you 45,000 and get the numbers to you....
Well yes i did get paid the 45 but they never produced the numbers. After several weeks of emails The other two guys involved are accusing me of trying to steel from them and several other choice words....
IM not the one who changed the deal............... Im pissed............
What would you guys do......
So this is what happened. I recieved a call from a board member about helping out on a big job several hunderd thousand sq ft. We agree on a price of .13 a sq ft for cleaning. They were going to pick up the hotel and chemicals.
So we drive 1300 miles one way to go help on this project, i brought out my lead tech and a third helper. We get cleaning, yes a big job. We are dual wanding with high flow and the other crew is single wanding.
As we jump ahead to the last day and as we are wrapping up i start to look for my check. Im told that we dont have all the numbers ( I know i should have kept track my self but was told several times that he would keep all the numbers.)
I say well being that we did 60-80 % of the job give me 2/3 of the sq ft. They said no and we will give you 45,000 and get the numbers to you....
Well yes i did get paid the 45 but they never produced the numbers. After several weeks of emails The other two guys involved are accusing me of trying to steel from them and several other choice words....
IM not the one who changed the deal............... Im pissed............
What would you guys do......
Mike Draper
Member
- Joined
- Jan 13, 2008
- Messages
- 4,402
I would have been in my attorneys office yesterday. A demanding letter that is sent asap can send a message that you are not willing to screw around.
:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:
Damn why do people feel the need to screw other people???
While yes I think 2/3 sounds fair as you were running 2v1...
I can think on the other side that 2/3 of a check is a hard thing to swallow...lol more so once i said i would cover hotel and chems....
i would have said up front...50-50 you cover your costs, here is the total sqft...what say you??
i just did a house for a guy that he does bank owned homes.....he couldnt get to it, so he asked me to...we are about the same price wise....
I went and did it, told him how many rooms, and pay me what ever....
he asked for a bill, I said "ok how much so you can make a few bucks" he said just your regular rate...
I hope he makes a few bucks from it...but i am kinda slow...so i was glad to have it and help someone out...
but thats me
Damn why do people feel the need to screw other people???
While yes I think 2/3 sounds fair as you were running 2v1...
I can think on the other side that 2/3 of a check is a hard thing to swallow...lol more so once i said i would cover hotel and chems....
i would have said up front...50-50 you cover your costs, here is the total sqft...what say you??
i just did a house for a guy that he does bank owned homes.....he couldnt get to it, so he asked me to...we are about the same price wise....
I went and did it, told him how many rooms, and pay me what ever....
he asked for a bill, I said "ok how much so you can make a few bucks" he said just your regular rate...
I hope he makes a few bucks from it...but i am kinda slow...so i was glad to have it and help someone out...
but thats me
dealtimeman
Everyday is Saturday.
As a subcontractor you can lein if it is worth the money and effort.
dealtimeman
Everyday is Saturday.
Ron are you saying you only were paid for cleaning 346,154 feet of the job. In your post weeks ago you said you cleaned about 600,000 sqft and he did the rest.
Ron Lippold
RIP
Mike sorry about the confusion the total sq ft on the job was supsoe to be 598000 sq ft and yes we cleaned well over 2/3 of the job so yes im a little pissed. I dont think im wrong either. We had a deal and they broke the deal on the last day.
Doug Cox
Supportive Member
This job would be the job from hell and I would feel just the same. I would have a hard time promising a certain amount if the other party didn't live up to their end. All I know is I would never work like that.
Lee Stockwell
FOJL
Not the first time this has happened on the Boards.
A few board regulars teamed up to travel to Bemidji MN to tackle a big University project. The one who controlled the check did the same thing after noticing the other two were busting their humps while he walked around with a clipboard.
The culprit then vanished from the boards. The thread "With a heavy heart" may still be on ICS. It pretty much financially sank one young man who worked his butt off on the project.
A few board regulars teamed up to travel to Bemidji MN to tackle a big University project. The one who controlled the check did the same thing after noticing the other two were busting their humps while he walked around with a clipboard.
The culprit then vanished from the boards. The thread "With a heavy heart" may still be on ICS. It pretty much financially sank one young man who worked his butt off on the project.
Dolly Llama
Number 5
Re: Contracts
I'd of kept track of the amount of carpet I cleaned
"estimating" that you did "60 to 80%" of the job don't cut it, Junior
you drove 2600 miles for THIRTEEN CENTS a ft and didn't count your beans
:roll:
what good would a contract do in that situation anyway???
cause you "really" don't know HOW much you cleaned
I'll wait to hear the other side of the story before i make any judgments
Judge Wapner
..L.T.A.
Ron Lippold said:
I'd of kept track of the amount of carpet I cleaned
"estimating" that you did "60 to 80%" of the job don't cut it, Junior
you drove 2600 miles for THIRTEEN CENTS a ft and didn't count your beans
:roll:
what good would a contract do in that situation anyway???
cause you "really" don't know HOW much you cleaned
I'll wait to hear the other side of the story before i make any judgments
Judge Wapner
..L.T.A.
Lee Stockwell
FOJL
So many times I've heard (even from Larry) "You only make money when the wand is moving"..... if only that was so.
However much the wand moves you only make money when you are negotiating and getting your pay.
However much the wand moves you only make money when you are negotiating and getting your pay.
Steve Manier
Member
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2006
- Messages
- 91
Hi Ron,
Normaly I wouldn't chime in on a post like this but here are my thoughts...I went back and read the original "WOW" big job post and you said it took you a total of 16 days to clean and in this post you said you got 45k...Thats almost 3k a day gross...They paid for hotel and chems and you had the long drive both ways and gas, food, and your help..I would think after everything was paid that you still netted close to 2k a day??? Thats pretty good money...He landed the contract and helped so that should at least be good for 50\50 no??? Plus you said you weren't sure if you did 60% or 80% of the job. That is a pretty big difference when you're talking that much sq ft. I personally wouldn't have agreed to give you 2/3 but if that was the agreement then he should stand by it.
With all do respect,
Steve
Normaly I wouldn't chime in on a post like this but here are my thoughts...I went back and read the original "WOW" big job post and you said it took you a total of 16 days to clean and in this post you said you got 45k...Thats almost 3k a day gross...They paid for hotel and chems and you had the long drive both ways and gas, food, and your help..I would think after everything was paid that you still netted close to 2k a day??? Thats pretty good money...He landed the contract and helped so that should at least be good for 50\50 no??? Plus you said you weren't sure if you did 60% or 80% of the job. That is a pretty big difference when you're talking that much sq ft. I personally wouldn't have agreed to give you 2/3 but if that was the agreement then he should stand by it.
With all do respect,
Steve
Doug Cox said:
very confusing here???
i am thinking Ron more then lived up to his end, if he did in fact do close to 2/3 the job...
As i stated...50/50 would be fair....
and who knows, maybe he made more then .13...then he should be paying a full .13 for 2/3 the sqft, if your making a few pennies off that as well
Doug Cox
Supportive Member
I wasn't talking about Ron. I was talking generally about making promises and then have someone not live up to their end of the agreement. You can get screwed on either end. If I made a deal, I would live by it.
Dolly Llama
Number 5
floorguy said:
doesn't matter what the other guy was getting.
Ron agreed to 13 .
worst part is, he doesn't KNOW how much he cleaned :shock:
he's estimating how much he cleaned
I'd still like to hear the other side of the story .
Maybe the other guy's estimate doesn't jibe with Ron's
then what??
..L.T.A.
Hoody
Supportive Member
Lesson learned. Contracts don't mean crap these days. If you have emails corresponding back and forth I do believe those can be used in a suit if necessary if there was any type of agreement made in the correspondence. Really it depends how much money you're willing to spend to retain the other monies allegedly due to you.
Next time ask for floor layouts from someone in charge, or sketch your own and keep track. Even if it takes you an extra hour a day to sketch out a floor plan on graph paper, it saves hours of head ache and money lost.
I ran into this a lot bidding out large commercial. We would get bid opportunities and they'd estimate the square footage of the carpet to be cleaned. Most of the time the amount of the square footage they provided was way less than what was actually there. They would want us to respond via email for a price, and I'd never give a price unless I could walk-thru and measure, even if it took hours to do it.
Good luck Ron.
Next time ask for floor layouts from someone in charge, or sketch your own and keep track. Even if it takes you an extra hour a day to sketch out a floor plan on graph paper, it saves hours of head ache and money lost.
I ran into this a lot bidding out large commercial. We would get bid opportunities and they'd estimate the square footage of the carpet to be cleaned. Most of the time the amount of the square footage they provided was way less than what was actually there. They would want us to respond via email for a price, and I'd never give a price unless I could walk-thru and measure, even if it took hours to do it.
Good luck Ron.
Steve Toburen
Supportive Member
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2006
- Messages
- 1,912
- Name
- Steve Toburen
Stuff like this is sad and not because of the money. OK, the money may hurt too. But even worse is the emotional side- loss of faith and trust, etc. So in the spirit of avoiding problems like this again for someone else or even Ron ...
Ron, you probably didn't need a legal "contract" drafted by an attorney. What you did need to do was:
1. Have a clear agreement in writing (email works) with all the "i's dotted" and the "t's crossed" as in the "what if's clearly defined".
2. You should have measured up what you cleaned every day and had them sign off on it that yes, that is what you accomplished. (It would have been good if they did the same for you.)
3. Part of the agreement should have been when you got paid and yes, you should have been on the phone the exact day it was due.
Probably #1 and #2 was where you fell down the worst. It all comes down to one of my favorite sayings, "Clearly defined expectations are the basis of all successful relationships." (This applies in life as well as business.)
Oh, and one thing else. Ron. Try to move on. Don't let it eat at you.
Sincerely,
Steve Toburen
www.SFS.JonDon.com
PS BTW, I did all three points above a few years back when I flew to Australia to give a seminar and the bum still stiffed me to the tune of about 15K. Including I fronted a 2,000.00 air ticket. So I know firsthand about having to "move on"!
Ron, you probably didn't need a legal "contract" drafted by an attorney. What you did need to do was:
1. Have a clear agreement in writing (email works) with all the "i's dotted" and the "t's crossed" as in the "what if's clearly defined".
2. You should have measured up what you cleaned every day and had them sign off on it that yes, that is what you accomplished. (It would have been good if they did the same for you.)
3. Part of the agreement should have been when you got paid and yes, you should have been on the phone the exact day it was due.
Probably #1 and #2 was where you fell down the worst. It all comes down to one of my favorite sayings, "Clearly defined expectations are the basis of all successful relationships." (This applies in life as well as business.)
Oh, and one thing else. Ron. Try to move on. Don't let it eat at you.
Sincerely,
Steve Toburen
www.SFS.JonDon.com
PS BTW, I did all three points above a few years back when I flew to Australia to give a seminar and the bum still stiffed me to the tune of about 15K. Including I fronted a 2,000.00 air ticket. So I know firsthand about having to "move on"!
Brian R
Member
I think the problem here is Ron is a hard working, honest guy who expects others to be like him.
Because HE would do the right thing if the hand was on the other foot.....he expects the same.
Probably felt like a hand shake should have sealed the deal....and it should have.
Didn't need specifics because "what's fair is fair"
Problem is, you can't measure "fair" and you can't expect others to have in their mind what you have in yours.
"Nice guys finish last"? This is probably one of those things.
I think 1 penny spent to try to get the rest of pennies is a bad idea.....NOT because of the pennies....but because of the Stress....and I use the word "stress" very lightly.
Ron, I believe what's right is right and anyone who goes against that CANnot prosper.
Quick money (I'm talking about them) is seldom a solution to anything.
Because HE would do the right thing if the hand was on the other foot.....he expects the same.
Probably felt like a hand shake should have sealed the deal....and it should have.
Didn't need specifics because "what's fair is fair"
Problem is, you can't measure "fair" and you can't expect others to have in their mind what you have in yours.
"Nice guys finish last"? This is probably one of those things.
I think 1 penny spent to try to get the rest of pennies is a bad idea.....NOT because of the pennies....but because of the Stress....and I use the word "stress" very lightly.
Ron, I believe what's right is right and anyone who goes against that CANnot prosper.
Quick money (I'm talking about them) is seldom a solution to anything.
Steve Toburen
Supportive Member
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2006
- Messages
- 1,912
- Name
- Steve Toburen
Brian,Brian R said:
I think you just set a record for the most mixed metaphors in one post.
Sincerely,
Steve Toburen
www.SFS.JonDon.com
PS Sioux and I are driving up for a weekend in Aspen, CO today. You kids play nice without me.
Brian R
Member
Yeah, I'm cool like dat.
Bob Foster
Member
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2006
- Messages
- 8,870
Talking about a beef like that here will make this worse not better (as some people recently experienced). Both are good names here and I would hate to see either one get smeared.
Go talk it out in private.
When you do get it ironed out come back like gentlemen with the issue amicably resolved.
Go talk it out in private.
When you do get it ironed out come back like gentlemen with the issue amicably resolved.
Ron Lippold
RIP
Karma will get them...... 
