Direct Drive verses Slide in?

[SPW]

As a new start-up that will focus on residential and commercial carpet cleaning I was leaning toward a slide-in unit. Based on continued research, I am now split on whether or not I might be better suited with a direct drive.

I'm sure there are trade-offs either way, can you guys give me your opinions and what I should be thinking about?

Thanks!

 

[Desk Jockey]

We have both.

The Slide-in's are great on gas and are lower in cost.
It takes a little intelligence (still not much) to operate one. They do require some degree of maintenance, just as any small power plant does.

When they do wear out you just put in new motor or buy a new Slide-in and you're back on the road. You want get a new van, simple just move your Slide-in to the new one.

Direct drives are simple to operate, a monkey could do it and sometimes does. Gas hog, they are at least double the fuel bill.

Very little maintenance, but when the power plant wears out, it's going to cost big $$$$$.

Can't move to a new van, you'll have to buy a whole new system, but old systems do sell easily.

Which ever you choose, both do a good job of cleaning.

Good Luck!
Richard

 

[Greenie]

"Gas hog, they are at least double the fuel bill."

That's an important little detail, fuel cost on a v-8 can be pretty nasty on a busy month. There will be some who claim this is not so, but you just have to use your head, a v-8 running at 35 mph is a gas burner no matter how you slice it.

 

[Jimmy L]

But you need to figure in the increased costs to maintain that slide in.
I would never go back to using a slide in.

 

[Greenie]

Additional cost to maintain a small engine vs: high fuel bill every month, hmmm....decisions, decisions.

 

[Larry Cobb]

SPW;

PTO :

1. Usually about double the gas fuel consumption .
2. Designed only for exact year & make van. Very expensive (3K+) to reinstall when you want a new van.
3. Clutch drive usually the weakest point.
4. Heat generally limited to water temp (~1% with optional HX).
5. Very limited truck selection.
6. Potential Heat Issues w/starter, alternator & power steering pump

Slide-In :

1. Reliability dependent on manufacturer ability & experience.
2. Usually requires an operator with more mechanical ability.
3. Heat Exchanger quality & output varies from brand to brand.
4. Engine durability may be compromised by type and design (unless water-cooled).
5. More fuel savings with new Fuel Injected Engines.

Larry Cobb

 

[Guest]

If you're considering a slide-in...I hope you like the smell of gasoline and exhaust fumes

 

[steve frasier]

new hydramaster 4.8 burns 1.7 gallons per hour, same as the vortex, I hear that Shawn was surprised to hear this

genesis 59 slide will burn 2 to 3 gallons per hour depending on the rpm setting

blue line thermal wave should burn around 2 gallons per hour, the 427 Boxxer is about the same

to a certain extent, with popular name brand products, if you want a bigger blower then you need to go the slide in route but things are changing

after trying out different machines, I wouldn't settle for anything less then a #5 blower

pto usually not as hot

I am using a Thermal Wave II that I have as a demo unit for the weekend, so far I am very impressed, a ton of vacuum but the thing is as loud as hell, going to test drive a Genesis 59 on wednesday

one of my biggest concerns, my opinion, I was always afraid that someone would drive off with my pto while I was in the house cleaning carpet but there are ways around that

I don't smell the exhaust with the thermal wave but I do with the 427 boxxer

In the end, they all break down at some point. I seen a $82,000 brand new vortex today the couldn't break 200 on the lie detector. If that thing was mine, I would be pissed

 

[Jim Martin]

everyone can pick apart what they like and don't like but in the end.
both machines have there plus and minus..

its a wash out...........its going to boil down to what is going to fit your need and help your company.......the key to no matter what you get is how you maintain it.

another thing ........alot of people worry about is someone driving off with there van and equipment while running the PTO.. I have a alarm on mine with a auto start This allows me not to put a key in the truck .

This is how mine is set up........

When I am ready to start the truck I will arm the alarm with the side door on the box open. Once it arms it gives me a third chirp to let me know that the box will be unarmed but the cab is auto locked down and armed. This allows me to get in and out of the back of the truck with the cab armed.

Once I get the third chirp I push another button and the UD starts up.

If anyone breaks a window or opens the cab doors the entire system goes into a complete shut down and the alarm sounds..If by chance they do get into the cab and it gets put into gear or the break gets tapped it goes into a shut down..same as if any wire gets cut..

Once I am done for the day and all doors are close the entire truck is armed...

I have this set up on both the Chevy and the UD There is a large difference in the set up due to the UD has to have a few extra relays to delay the start a few seconds due to the glow plug.

 

[Jimbo]

Jim...did you design the alarm system with the extra relays and stuff? I'm impressed!- Jim

 

[Jim Martin]

I did some of it but not all the system that is installed. I had to "teach it rpm and then I had to lie to it for longer jobs. Relays for the glow plug I did. You can put a time delay on just about anything...........

On a auto start there are 2 things that you have to get around one is the RPM they are designed to cut out at about 1200 rpm's as a safety factor on the one I installed you can hold a button and teach it higher rpm's so mine is set for about 2000...........so at 2000 rpm the alarm shuts down the truck.

another is time there is no teaching the alarm the concept of time As a safety factor auto starts are only allowed to run 1 hour so I had to add a switch that if I think I am going to be at a job more than an hour I hit the switch and trick the alarm into thinking that it is running with a key in the truck.........

If you go down to the vortex room ( under question) you will see a picture of my control panel On the right side next to the red and green on off buttons (above the fuse) you will see the switch that I added with a light... I made it into the panel so no one would know what it was.. If by chance someone hits it it will kill the system...

 

[Guest]

Ask Mike

He knows everything.

 

[Guest]

Seriously

I have sold a lot of both. PTOs have better reliability. The gas consumption is a issue and also the person who installs your PTO.
If the alignment is not perfect, you will go through clutches.

 

[Mikey P]

give nothing up to other truck mounts

So I can run two wands with 150 feet of hose each and only need two dry strokes to get one hour dry times?

 

[Guest]

You have a pic of that nordink1 odin:?

You talk and brag about it alot.

 

[Guest]

Look at Vinnies...thats the Boyd Coddington version.



Chad

 

[Guest]

If you have the money

Get a direct drive. If the dealer in you area can't install it right, buy a Butler. Life is short, and working on your truck-mount at night is not what it is life about. Gas is cheap, compared to a day of break down.

 

[Guest]

I would like to purchase a Nordink1. Where can I see one... :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

 

[GRHeacock]

Each type has benefits and drawbacks.

Slide-ins weigh more and take up more van space.

I have had both types. The CDS type I had the last 20 years in an Astro van is still running, and I put in maybe $500 worth of repairs in it the 20 years.

Can't do that with a slide in.

The slide-in was well designed, and very reliable, but I worked on it once a week on average.

It was harder on tires, brakes, gas to haul the weight around, compared to the CDS which weighs maybe 100 pounds and takes up 2 cubic feet.

So- you want durability- get a CDS or PTO type.

You want ease of changing machines when necessary- get a slide in.

Gary

 

[Ken Snow]

Had dozens of slide ins and well over 100 butlers. Don't think we would ever go back. The gas cost increase is inconsequential compared to ease of maintenance.

Ken

 

[Greenie]

that reliability issue always cracked me up, they have the same "basic" components, so when someone talks about comparing them, the PTOs always come out ahead for reliability, so my question is Why?, if the basic components are the same only the drive system/power plant is the variable?

The day someone engineers a slide in that has the reliability of a PTO, he will own the market.

 

[Greenie]

That is one reason the small 16hp 33 blower units will always exist, they are gas misers, and allow a owner/op to make a living affordably, and are very reliable, and good out to 200'.
Just look at guys like Fon Johnson, how many years have you been running your unit Fon, and how many breakdowns, and what did it cost initially? how much does it weigh in the van, how much fuel does it burn?

 

[Jimmy L]

You just don't get it Greenie.
Time to go to engineering school.

 

[Guest]

Ken

So, you are endorsing direct drives?

 

[The Great Oz]

If you're just getting started, buy used.

If you want to get a new cleaning unit but are on a tight budget, get a good looking used ex-fleet van and buy a slide-in. If you are like most owner-operators and put 100,000 miles on your truck before you get 3,000 hours on the unit, get a slide-in so you can move it more easily to a newer van, or mount it in a trailer. Take a look at the amount of used truck mounts on the market with this kind of odometer/hour meter imbalance, and you'll see this kind of use is quite common.

Slide-in reliability can vary within the same manufacturer's line, and it matters very much how it is built and how carefully the components are chosen. Make note of the type of engine and the engine manufacturer's expected lifespan for that engine. Some are as little as 2,000 hours, with an installed price of around $3,000. Water-cooled engines typically last longer, so the cheapest unit to buy may not be the cheapest one to own.

If you want something to be relatively trouble free and easy to maintain and will NOT use the truck to go to the beach, get a PTO. 100,000 miles and 10,000 cleaning hours with only routine maintenance is common. If you want to maximize the amount of room you have without having to drive a box truck, look into a space saving PTO like the Hydramaster CDS.

PS: Fuel use for our CDS' running in a GMC with a 6 liter engine averages 1.8 gallons per hour. We have Floscan meters on each truck to verify fuel use. The one thing we don't want is a breakdown that could affect the customer, since reliability is a big part of our service, so for us the other considerations are secondary.

 

[Numero Uno]

If your direct drive is a gas hog,then proper engine tuneups are not being done...

I have never burned more then a gallon and a half an hour...

My van averages at least 15 miles per in the city...18 on highway...

Now when that wand is working,I would be cheap to worry about 4 dollars of gas an hour...

But anyone that thinks a direct drive is a gas hog is a twit...

My 2 cents on that issue,buy a Bane if you worry about gas...

Install it in the back of a trailer and tow it with your hybrid car,cheap enuf for ya???

 

[Ron Werner]

I have a slide in, a re-engineered Big Red. 4 cyl diesel. Its been a hog as far as maintenance (more re-engineering than maintenance) but the thing will run forever. Its got 11900hrs on it since 1988 and running better today than it did then.

One thing that no one has mentioned is how fast heat is ready. A PTO will have immediate heat as most have HXand the truck is hot just from driving there. A slide in needs to warm up for a few minutes. Depending on how fast heat develops in the slidein you can start it when beginning to set up and everything is hot and ready to dance when you are.

Of course if you have a Fuel heater, ie little giant or fuel oil type, heat is available in less than a minute, but then there is more fuel costs. And for me, my fuel burner cost me over $2000 in replacing a carpet and 1 mth downtime getting it pulled out and replaced. Long story but I'll post picks of my truck and its design in the Big Truck section in the near future.

Another nice thing about a slide in, if it shuts down, and you know enough mechanics, you can always get it running again. Don't need to work on the main truck engine. Also, if you have to drive it to the shop for repairs, there's no need for a tow truck.
If one motor won't start, you can boost it from the other one. That's come in handy lots of times, esp if I left the lights on. Mine's in a 88 Chev C30, non of the new electronic stuff in it and the diesel is even simpler.

One time the alternator went on my cleaning engine and the motor died when the battery died. So I just ran a cable from the truck engine to the battery of my slide-in, ran both engines to finish the job! Then drove to the auto parts store and replaced it. QED

There's a diesel slidein available, I saw it at Connections. Something MAX I think. Has a magnetic clutch to drive the blower and pump, John Deer engine.

Draw back to the slidein is cleanliness inside the truck. A PTO system stays far cleaner. I get diesel residue over the inside of my rig that I have to clean periodically. Then again, mine can totally be closed up and secured. Cab is locked and the box can be locked. Keeps it much quieter.

And as has already been mentioned, the slideins take up more room.

One thing about cube box vs van. In the weather we're experiencing this week, ie waaaaay below freezing, a van can keep all the equipment warm just from engine heat. A box needs a secondary source to keep it from freezing while on the way to a job or if its parked for a while away/out of the shop.

hope this helps

 

[brocksdad]

I had a Hydra Master CDS and I had to change the spark plug wires every other month The back passengers side wires would Bake not melt they were crusty and the insulated boot would flake off. I hated that box van I will never buy another ford after that hellish experience. I love my Nordick nock off in my diesel truck.

 

[Steve Lawrence]

Man, I dislike slide-ins with a passion.

Heavy
Stinky
Dirty
Loud
Van floodin'
Continual breakdowns and maintenance
Poorly engineered
Knuckle-busting tight quarters when you do maintenance and repairs
Crappy resale value
Dumb teeny waste tanks
They're the George Bush of cleaning equipment. (I had Prochem)

Almost as bad as a portable, okay, not quite but I still hate 'em.

 

[Kevin Hamer]

Less headaches go with a direct drive. Gas should not even be an issue.