G
Guest
Guest
What do you prefer direct drive or slide in units and why?
bob vawter
Grassy Knoller
If you plan on mowing lawn...put a mower motor back there.....
If you plan on cleaning carpet, run off a REAL motor!
If you plan on cleaning carpet, run off a REAL motor!
Art Kelley
Supportive Member
You can't beat the reliability of a direct drive unit. Basically the "only" maintenance is that of the vehicle (although you are essentially putting on 3 times the the mileage on your engine drive system as the odometer shows) the cleaning machine components can really last decades, except for pump parts and hoses and the drive shaft. I still can't get rid of my 1987 White Magic pro 1200 with 17000 hours on it. But there are other factors to consider. I found this post by an excellent writer Dbradley from Minnesota on the Carpet Cleaners Network which I shall steal and post here: "15 yrs in the business I don't think 1 truck mount is Quote"The Best" they all have pros and cons and here's a couple.
Direct drive units vs slide in units may offer a substantial convenience factor as well as some sense of idiot proofing for the operator in that in the van you do not have another (small) engine which only can be serviced by a small engine dealer. The direct drive concept also does not heat the inside of the drivers compartment to 300+ fahrenheit thus causing a layering effect to guarantee heat stroke. As if carpet steam cleaning indoors isn't already hot enough! Carbon monoxide poisoning is another deadly disadvantage to slide in units. I place co2 detectors in the vans and they always display lethal dose levels in the van. As you go from job to job we need to cool our bodies down and if the windows are rolled up running an A/C we are literally poisoning ourselves to death. if choosing a slide in, do yourself a favor and go to a truck body utility company and buy a $300.00 hole-less bulkhead (that's the metal safety cage we see behind the drivers seat in utility cargo vans) and seal all edges with sealer making it 100% airtight. Spray rubber or rhino or even better, spray foam will remove years of unhealthy exposures.
Co2 is a poisonous gas that cumulatively absorbs into the human body. It permanently attaches itself to the red blood cells and never detaches until it kills the red blood cell. Think of it as a bus with passengers that never get off. The human body takes a minimum of 2 weeks to begin replacing the dead blood cells that's why the word "Poisoning" is so appropriate.
An average 20hp slide in unit will produce 2-4 times more hydrocarbons than a van's V8 engine because the auto pollution industry is regulated.
Do yourself another favor. Go to an RV center and buy a campers ceiling fan. Cut a hole in the roof, install it and wire the system to your machine. a 14" square fan produces 1,000 cubic feet per minute! Costs about $150.00-$200.00.
Also, have an exhaust shop cut a hole in the floor of the van and make a curved exhaust tube carrying the exhaust down under the van and out the other side.
Now lets compare Direct drive units to one another.
Pro chem: The only pro-chem d/d I've ever seen is a unit where they employ a hydraulic pump under the hood which pumps fluid to a hydraulic motor which spins the blower. I don't like the design at all because if you ever have a problem you have to learn all about hydraulic repairs and good luck finding anybody to service it.
Hydra master d/d units offer a much simpler approach to transmitting power from the van's engine to the machine. They install a protected drive shaft with U joints thou the van's doghouse, across the top of the motor, an electric clutch assembly much like a car's A/C electric clutch then engages or disengages the system when needed. I know of a large franchise in my area that has 42 of these units and on an average retires these units with 278,000 miles on the odometer (Chev) 5.7liter and about 10,000 hours on the actual equipment, thus the engine (factoring in engine run time for the machine) has an additional 250,000 miles in wear.
also, only 2 full time mechanics keeps all 42 vans running!!!wwooww!!
Butler, white magic and clean co use a similar design except that the machine's drive shaft is separately belted from the van. Hydramaster uses the van's serpentine belt whereas the other 3 bolt a double drive belt pulley to the flywheel. This design can handle more torque and power larger blowers and extend the life of the belts overall however changing belts is not a complicated process anyhow.
Hydramaster seems to have a lot more distribution so if something breaks you probably will be up and running again much sooner with Hydramaster than the other three.
Butler has no distributors or authorized service centers at all. You have to buy everything from to Ohio weather you like it or not and you also might be the one installing the parts. Just what you always wanted- carpet cleaner by day, part time mechanic at night. Your mechanical inclination should play a major role in this decision.
The White magic and clean co systems have the same problem, no local parts. If you order spare parts and store them on the shelf, the warranty starts the day you buy the part and could be expired the day you install it. Hopefully it's not defective! Hydra master is supported in nearly every major city in the us. At times, I've see the other three's sales reps offering local distributors a sales territory but for some reason they always stick with Hydra master.
Slide in units compared.
Rather than who makes what in the slide in sector, one should really look at the engineering concepts behind their design. Some are an actual nightmare ,such in fact, their unreliability may cost you your business success!
The basic design in a slide in unit goes like this: First, an industrial small engine between 16 and 36 hp mounts to a frame and is somehow connected to a blower either thou belts ore some type of engine coupler. The engine could be liquid cooled, air cooled, flat head or overhead valve. the most commonly used engines are Honda, Briggs & (Vanguard), and Kohler. Onan stopped most of their production. Sutorbilt VS Roots blowers are about the same, last 4,000-10,000 hrs if greased regularly. the biggest concern I had with slide in technology was that all the major componentry was rock solid reliable, parts and service were available absolutely everywhere! AND I wanted endless nuclear heat.
The basic design in water heating goes like this:First, cold water is pumped into the machine and stored in a small 2gal reservoir. The high pressure solution pump preheats the water in the reservoir by drawing about 5 gal per min from the reservoir, circulating thru a series of heat exchangers and then back to the begining resiorvor. When the cleaning technician depresses the lever on the cleaning wand, half the water then goes to the wand while the other half goes back to the beginning reservoir. The heat exchangers typically will create about a 20 degree temp rise each time the water passes the exchangers so a restriction is placed on the system restricting some of the flow back to the reservoir at times. the water in the reservoir can never exceed 160F or the water in the pump head will expand into an air pocket and airlock the pump head because while water boils at 212F atmospheric pressure, the inside pump head is under major vacuum and under vacuum, water boils at 162F.
Once this happens a domino effect of problems begins. First, you no longer have water circulating the system so the water in the heat exchangers continue to get hotter and hotter which isn't good. Second, the pump head is being run dry which can damage the seals and pump causing major expense. Cat pump has a ceramic plunger type pump (3CP and 5CP) and a "Hot and Dry" seal kit which impregnates Teflon and rubber together in the seals and can withstand the highest temperatures possible as well as being run dry for up to an hour total while sustaining only minor damage to the seals If the operator stops cleaning for too long, the system tries to reserve preheated water throughout the system. Eventually when it has no place else to put the preheated reserve water, a high temp safety valve begins to bleed off or dump the hot water into the recovery waste tank allthewhile drawing in fresh cold water to cool a machine that otherwise would overheat. Now if the incoming cold water supply is exhausted, then the machines heat exchangers will have no choice but to begin overheating until another safety switch called a 240F kill switch terminates the engine's ignition and shuts the machine off. This system usually also requires that the recovery tank has a automatic pump out system because weather you are cleaning or not, the waste tank is always filling either because either you're cleaning or it's dumping.
. By the way, none of these problems can ever occur in the direct drive system.
Ideally, If you're buying new and have any choice in picking components, this is what I've experienced. Engines:Try to pick a machine where a replacement engine can be purchased at Northern Tool. They always have hundreds in stock, even when the manufacture is out of production.
Flat head engine design is 50yrs outdated, poor emissions, easily overheats and is coming under EPA regulations and will be banned for emissions problems within 3-5 years so if you ever blow up or wear out your engine, usually 1,500 - 3,000 hrs you will have to re fabricate your machine or sell it for scrap. Honda 24hp outlasts anything I've seen made, my brother is a city maintenance worker and they have over 250 machines like riding lawnmowers etc and he says Honda's run forever whereas everything else blows up every 2-3 years. Honda parts are sold and serviced almost everywhere. A 24hp Honda Best engine made, retails for about $1,100 whereas a smaller 18-20 hp engine of all the others sells for about $1,800! Honda offers twice the engine at half the price!
Heat exchange: As you can see, the heat exchange concept has a multitude of dimensions that ultimately determine reliability. If everything is not perfect, the machine will self destruct in an instant. Comparing Pro chem VS Hydra master on this note, Pro chem invented and perfected the slide in heat exchange technology in the 70's and 80's. Hydra master tried to develop their own version in the mid 90's and it was a complete disaster. The crossfire 4.2 was known for never going more than a month or two without thru a weird set of circumstances completely in a domino's effect, completely self destruct. I had two major fires with the machine, I logged $8,000 in parts and 400 hours repairing the machine in 1 year. The machine had less than 1,000 hours on it. Eventually, it got stolen and I really didn't even care enough to do any thing about it. I later purchased a pro chem 4.0 which also got stolen but I never had to do anything short of routine maintenance in 3 years with 4,000 hours logged.
Slide ins, go pro chem., Direct drive, go Hydra master.
Last step chemical injection is a pain too. The flow meter will change everytime you change your water volume. Water volume changes automaticly when you switch from a hydroforce to a wand , then to a stair tool, then the upholstry tool. even the length of hose or the pressure fluctuations that come with water temp heat spikes, etc.
Common people, what do you think? Let's hear some replies !!!"
Direct drive units vs slide in units may offer a substantial convenience factor as well as some sense of idiot proofing for the operator in that in the van you do not have another (small) engine which only can be serviced by a small engine dealer. The direct drive concept also does not heat the inside of the drivers compartment to 300+ fahrenheit thus causing a layering effect to guarantee heat stroke. As if carpet steam cleaning indoors isn't already hot enough! Carbon monoxide poisoning is another deadly disadvantage to slide in units. I place co2 detectors in the vans and they always display lethal dose levels in the van. As you go from job to job we need to cool our bodies down and if the windows are rolled up running an A/C we are literally poisoning ourselves to death. if choosing a slide in, do yourself a favor and go to a truck body utility company and buy a $300.00 hole-less bulkhead (that's the metal safety cage we see behind the drivers seat in utility cargo vans) and seal all edges with sealer making it 100% airtight. Spray rubber or rhino or even better, spray foam will remove years of unhealthy exposures.
Co2 is a poisonous gas that cumulatively absorbs into the human body. It permanently attaches itself to the red blood cells and never detaches until it kills the red blood cell. Think of it as a bus with passengers that never get off. The human body takes a minimum of 2 weeks to begin replacing the dead blood cells that's why the word "Poisoning" is so appropriate.
An average 20hp slide in unit will produce 2-4 times more hydrocarbons than a van's V8 engine because the auto pollution industry is regulated.
Do yourself another favor. Go to an RV center and buy a campers ceiling fan. Cut a hole in the roof, install it and wire the system to your machine. a 14" square fan produces 1,000 cubic feet per minute! Costs about $150.00-$200.00.
Also, have an exhaust shop cut a hole in the floor of the van and make a curved exhaust tube carrying the exhaust down under the van and out the other side.
Now lets compare Direct drive units to one another.
Pro chem: The only pro-chem d/d I've ever seen is a unit where they employ a hydraulic pump under the hood which pumps fluid to a hydraulic motor which spins the blower. I don't like the design at all because if you ever have a problem you have to learn all about hydraulic repairs and good luck finding anybody to service it.
Hydra master d/d units offer a much simpler approach to transmitting power from the van's engine to the machine. They install a protected drive shaft with U joints thou the van's doghouse, across the top of the motor, an electric clutch assembly much like a car's A/C electric clutch then engages or disengages the system when needed. I know of a large franchise in my area that has 42 of these units and on an average retires these units with 278,000 miles on the odometer (Chev) 5.7liter and about 10,000 hours on the actual equipment, thus the engine (factoring in engine run time for the machine) has an additional 250,000 miles in wear.
also, only 2 full time mechanics keeps all 42 vans running!!!wwooww!!
Butler, white magic and clean co use a similar design except that the machine's drive shaft is separately belted from the van. Hydramaster uses the van's serpentine belt whereas the other 3 bolt a double drive belt pulley to the flywheel. This design can handle more torque and power larger blowers and extend the life of the belts overall however changing belts is not a complicated process anyhow.
Hydramaster seems to have a lot more distribution so if something breaks you probably will be up and running again much sooner with Hydramaster than the other three.
Butler has no distributors or authorized service centers at all. You have to buy everything from to Ohio weather you like it or not and you also might be the one installing the parts. Just what you always wanted- carpet cleaner by day, part time mechanic at night. Your mechanical inclination should play a major role in this decision.
The White magic and clean co systems have the same problem, no local parts. If you order spare parts and store them on the shelf, the warranty starts the day you buy the part and could be expired the day you install it. Hopefully it's not defective! Hydra master is supported in nearly every major city in the us. At times, I've see the other three's sales reps offering local distributors a sales territory but for some reason they always stick with Hydra master.
Slide in units compared.
Rather than who makes what in the slide in sector, one should really look at the engineering concepts behind their design. Some are an actual nightmare ,such in fact, their unreliability may cost you your business success!
The basic design in a slide in unit goes like this: First, an industrial small engine between 16 and 36 hp mounts to a frame and is somehow connected to a blower either thou belts ore some type of engine coupler. The engine could be liquid cooled, air cooled, flat head or overhead valve. the most commonly used engines are Honda, Briggs & (Vanguard), and Kohler. Onan stopped most of their production. Sutorbilt VS Roots blowers are about the same, last 4,000-10,000 hrs if greased regularly. the biggest concern I had with slide in technology was that all the major componentry was rock solid reliable, parts and service were available absolutely everywhere! AND I wanted endless nuclear heat.
The basic design in water heating goes like this:First, cold water is pumped into the machine and stored in a small 2gal reservoir. The high pressure solution pump preheats the water in the reservoir by drawing about 5 gal per min from the reservoir, circulating thru a series of heat exchangers and then back to the begining resiorvor. When the cleaning technician depresses the lever on the cleaning wand, half the water then goes to the wand while the other half goes back to the beginning reservoir. The heat exchangers typically will create about a 20 degree temp rise each time the water passes the exchangers so a restriction is placed on the system restricting some of the flow back to the reservoir at times. the water in the reservoir can never exceed 160F or the water in the pump head will expand into an air pocket and airlock the pump head because while water boils at 212F atmospheric pressure, the inside pump head is under major vacuum and under vacuum, water boils at 162F.
Once this happens a domino effect of problems begins. First, you no longer have water circulating the system so the water in the heat exchangers continue to get hotter and hotter which isn't good. Second, the pump head is being run dry which can damage the seals and pump causing major expense. Cat pump has a ceramic plunger type pump (3CP and 5CP) and a "Hot and Dry" seal kit which impregnates Teflon and rubber together in the seals and can withstand the highest temperatures possible as well as being run dry for up to an hour total while sustaining only minor damage to the seals If the operator stops cleaning for too long, the system tries to reserve preheated water throughout the system. Eventually when it has no place else to put the preheated reserve water, a high temp safety valve begins to bleed off or dump the hot water into the recovery waste tank allthewhile drawing in fresh cold water to cool a machine that otherwise would overheat. Now if the incoming cold water supply is exhausted, then the machines heat exchangers will have no choice but to begin overheating until another safety switch called a 240F kill switch terminates the engine's ignition and shuts the machine off. This system usually also requires that the recovery tank has a automatic pump out system because weather you are cleaning or not, the waste tank is always filling either because either you're cleaning or it's dumping.
. By the way, none of these problems can ever occur in the direct drive system.
Ideally, If you're buying new and have any choice in picking components, this is what I've experienced. Engines:Try to pick a machine where a replacement engine can be purchased at Northern Tool. They always have hundreds in stock, even when the manufacture is out of production.
Flat head engine design is 50yrs outdated, poor emissions, easily overheats and is coming under EPA regulations and will be banned for emissions problems within 3-5 years so if you ever blow up or wear out your engine, usually 1,500 - 3,000 hrs you will have to re fabricate your machine or sell it for scrap. Honda 24hp outlasts anything I've seen made, my brother is a city maintenance worker and they have over 250 machines like riding lawnmowers etc and he says Honda's run forever whereas everything else blows up every 2-3 years. Honda parts are sold and serviced almost everywhere. A 24hp Honda Best engine made, retails for about $1,100 whereas a smaller 18-20 hp engine of all the others sells for about $1,800! Honda offers twice the engine at half the price!
Heat exchange: As you can see, the heat exchange concept has a multitude of dimensions that ultimately determine reliability. If everything is not perfect, the machine will self destruct in an instant. Comparing Pro chem VS Hydra master on this note, Pro chem invented and perfected the slide in heat exchange technology in the 70's and 80's. Hydra master tried to develop their own version in the mid 90's and it was a complete disaster. The crossfire 4.2 was known for never going more than a month or two without thru a weird set of circumstances completely in a domino's effect, completely self destruct. I had two major fires with the machine, I logged $8,000 in parts and 400 hours repairing the machine in 1 year. The machine had less than 1,000 hours on it. Eventually, it got stolen and I really didn't even care enough to do any thing about it. I later purchased a pro chem 4.0 which also got stolen but I never had to do anything short of routine maintenance in 3 years with 4,000 hours logged.
Slide ins, go pro chem., Direct drive, go Hydra master.
Last step chemical injection is a pain too. The flow meter will change everytime you change your water volume. Water volume changes automaticly when you switch from a hydroforce to a wand , then to a stair tool, then the upholstry tool. even the length of hose or the pressure fluctuations that come with water temp heat spikes, etc.
Common people, what do you think? Let's hear some replies !!!"
Dolly Llama
Number 5
I'm a slide-in guy
In general, you get more bang for the buck.
Dollar for dollar, you can get more machine w/slide-in
if I'm paying $20K+ for a TM, i want a engine too
(I don't care if it's a "lawn mower motor" or not, i want the damn thing!
Not as hard on the van
(vans aren't made to go 50mph sitting still on a hot summer day)
All the direct drive peeps mention reliability.
I sure won't argue that as far as the TM goes.
But I think ya'll ought to count things like water pumps, brittle wiring harnesses, etc when you speak of reliability/longevity
a TM will generally out last a van.
When a van gets tired or uglied out, you're forced to put large dollars in body work and paint job on a tired van if you want to keep it looking good.
Or spend large dollars swapping a direct drive into a new van.
slide-ins can be moved to a new van in no time at much less cost.
(same for if you wreck a van)
if you're biz model is to replace at the end of lease or loan term, I s'pose some of of the draw backs of direct drive I mentioned won't apply.
But if plan to keep your TM running well after it's paid for, a slide-in makes more $ense to "me"
..L.T.A.
In general, you get more bang for the buck.
Dollar for dollar, you can get more machine w/slide-in
if I'm paying $20K+ for a TM, i want a engine too
(I don't care if it's a "lawn mower motor" or not, i want the damn thing!
Not as hard on the van
(vans aren't made to go 50mph sitting still on a hot summer day)
All the direct drive peeps mention reliability.
I sure won't argue that as far as the TM goes.
But I think ya'll ought to count things like water pumps, brittle wiring harnesses, etc when you speak of reliability/longevity
a TM will generally out last a van.
When a van gets tired or uglied out, you're forced to put large dollars in body work and paint job on a tired van if you want to keep it looking good.
Or spend large dollars swapping a direct drive into a new van.
slide-ins can be moved to a new van in no time at much less cost.
(same for if you wreck a van)
if you're biz model is to replace at the end of lease or loan term, I s'pose some of of the draw backs of direct drive I mentioned won't apply.
But if plan to keep your TM running well after it's paid for, a slide-in makes more $ense to "me"
..L.T.A.
If you are a owner/operator it doesn't really matter because both do a great job.
If you have employees I would only go with a direct drive because it is almost employee proof. I have a butler that I bought used 2 years ago with 25000 miles on it and the only thing I have had to do with it since is replace a vac pod. It is the best built and easiest machine to work on that I have owned and the resale value is one of the best in the industry.
Not to mention they are much easier to work on and have fewer parts to break than a slide-in.
If you have employees I would only go with a direct drive because it is almost employee proof. I have a butler that I bought used 2 years ago with 25000 miles on it and the only thing I have had to do with it since is replace a vac pod. It is the best built and easiest machine to work on that I have owned and the resale value is one of the best in the industry.
Not to mention they are much easier to work on and have fewer parts to break than a slide-in.
bob vawter
Grassy Knoller
Po Larry......i KNOW you MEAN well.........
Jim Williams
Member
I'm with Larry on this one. Slide ins for me. I just don't like the thought of a van running just above idle in the 100 degree heat.
I can slap in a new lawn mower engine pretty quick and have years of experience working on equipment so no problem there.
My slide in has done well for 2300 hours. No down time at all. Next time around I'll be checking out the Judson HX unit.
Excellent thoughts on both sides though. Just depends on preference I guess.
I can slap in a new lawn mower engine pretty quick and have years of experience working on equipment so no problem there.
My slide in has done well for 2300 hours. No down time at all. Next time around I'll be checking out the Judson HX unit.
Excellent thoughts on both sides though. Just depends on preference I guess.
bob vawter
Grassy Knoller
Jus again proves my old adage that:
People that are wrong
don know they are wrong......
cuz why would anyone
Be wrong on......... purpose!
People that are wrong
don know they are wrong......
cuz why would anyone
Be wrong on......... purpose!
Duane Oxley
Moon Unit
"The basic design in water heating goes like this:First, cold water is pumped into the machine and stored in a small 2gal reservoir.... weather you are cleaning or not, the waste tank is always filling either because either you're cleaning or it's dumping. "
None of the above (including the portion indicated by the "...." is true of any slide in system I have ever built (Propane), or will be building (the patent- pending Nemesis and Xcel heat exchange systems)
"A 24hp Honda Best engine made..."
Sure, they do make good engines, but they also consider them to be "so good", that if there's a problem, they consider it to be operator error. And don't forget to get the valves adjusted on schedule, or they will void the warranty, period.
Personally, I prefer Kohler. And I have, ever since I changed (from Briggs) to them in 2001. They're built like tanks and they take care of warranty claims (which are few) as they should.
None of the above (including the portion indicated by the "...." is true of any slide in system I have ever built (Propane), or will be building (the patent- pending Nemesis and Xcel heat exchange systems)
"A 24hp Honda Best engine made..."
Sure, they do make good engines, but they also consider them to be "so good", that if there's a problem, they consider it to be operator error. And don't forget to get the valves adjusted on schedule, or they will void the warranty, period.
Personally, I prefer Kohler. And I have, ever since I changed (from Briggs) to them in 2001. They're built like tanks and they take care of warranty claims (which are few) as they should.
bob vawter
Grassy Knoller
I'm partial to the little FoMoCo 302 cu in de-jetted two barrel........
.8 gal/working hr...free heat!
.8 gal/working hr...free heat!
hogjowl
Idiot™
I just spent about an hour cleaning soot and that slide-in "film" off the walls, window, dash, etc. from the inside of my van.
If I never have to do that again, it will still be too soon.
Cleanco Quad 56 is looking better every day.
If I never have to do that again, it will still be too soon.
Cleanco Quad 56 is looking better every day.
bob vawter
Grassy Knoller
bob vawter
Grassy Knoller
Steven..i gots a hi-tech machine shop that will make them for $280.00......don tell no one!
MerCrewser
Member
- Joined
- Jan 23, 2007
- Messages
- 304
Why not get a good slide in with an auto engine? Best of both worlds.
TimP
Member
- Joined
- May 19, 2007
- Messages
- 4,055
admiralclean said:
Marty if you're gonna single wand I hear you're better off with the cleanco 47. I'm sure the fuel usage is higher with the 56 and a 47 is all you need for single wand.
The only problem with direct drive that isn't mentioned above is that they aren't really known for their heat. Although a blower heat exchanger helps. The salsa system on my cds 4.8 does pretty good, I get working temps of 230+ with the greenhorn at .10 flow. It's enough heat to make the valve pop and also make the check valves drip....
Fuel consumption can be higher although I'm looking at about 1.7 -2 gph with my cds.
For my next TM I'm not sure what way I'll go. And it's a good thing that I have a while before I have to start looking into purchasing another TM. Probably by the time I'm ready to get another gas powered TM's may not be the best way to go.....probably propane, natural gas if not some means of electric. Only time will tell
Bob Foster
Member
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2006
- Messages
- 8,870
Judson slide in for me.
They are easy to work on because of their simple and time-proven design, reliable (because they are simple) and more economical to run than a CDS.
They are easy to work on because of their simple and time-proven design, reliable (because they are simple) and more economical to run than a CDS.
Duane Oxley
Moon Unit
"The only problem with Slide in's that isn't mentioned above is that they aren't really known for their heat."
Huh...?
I've seen the opposite to be true, except in the case of Vortex. PTO's have long been in the 180 to 210 range, at the machine. And that was all there was. Now, it's changing, I see. But still, slide- in's supposedly not being "known for heat" is simply not accurate.
Once again, systems I build prove otherwise... 230 degrees at the wand, at 1.5 GPM or thereabouts, has long been the benchmark I use.
The idea that a slide- in has to have a blower exchanger to have heat, by definition, assumes that there is nothing like kerosene or propane available for heat, which isn't true.
And the idea that a slide- in exchange system has to be complicated isn't true, either. It may be predominant... but not universal...
Huh...?
I've seen the opposite to be true, except in the case of Vortex. PTO's have long been in the 180 to 210 range, at the machine. And that was all there was. Now, it's changing, I see. But still, slide- in's supposedly not being "known for heat" is simply not accurate.
Once again, systems I build prove otherwise... 230 degrees at the wand, at 1.5 GPM or thereabouts, has long been the benchmark I use.
The idea that a slide- in has to have a blower exchanger to have heat, by definition, assumes that there is nothing like kerosene or propane available for heat, which isn't true.
And the idea that a slide- in exchange system has to be complicated isn't true, either. It may be predominant... but not universal...
Duane Oxley
Moon Unit
The thing about direct- drives, PTO's, or whatever you care to call them is that, when something goes wrong it's typically seen as a problem with Ford or Chevrolet, not whoever made the machine.
But PTO's are harder on a van's drive train...
Okay... let's see a show of hands... How many PTO owners have had their system for 3 years without having a transmission problem...?
And let's not forget the obvious: If you need to move the system for another reason, and it's a PTO, it's not that easy, to put it mildly. And if it's done, it's not going to be done in a day...
You can move a slide- in from one van to another in part of a workday...
I'm not saying that slide- in's are perfect. But neither are PTO's.
One thing that amazes me about PTO's is how much room they leave in a van... but how much is "really" left (virtually none), after all of the "package" is installed.
... and of course, that package weighs a lot, in addition to taking up so much space.
Give me a small, powerful slide- in with a pump- out any day, over a larger system that takes up the entire van and typically hauls 100 gal. or more of water, or dirty water, around with it...
But PTO's are harder on a van's drive train...
Okay... let's see a show of hands... How many PTO owners have had their system for 3 years without having a transmission problem...?
And let's not forget the obvious: If you need to move the system for another reason, and it's a PTO, it's not that easy, to put it mildly. And if it's done, it's not going to be done in a day...
You can move a slide- in from one van to another in part of a workday...
I'm not saying that slide- in's are perfect. But neither are PTO's.
One thing that amazes me about PTO's is how much room they leave in a van... but how much is "really" left (virtually none), after all of the "package" is installed.
... and of course, that package weighs a lot, in addition to taking up so much space.
Give me a small, powerful slide- in with a pump- out any day, over a larger system that takes up the entire van and typically hauls 100 gal. or more of water, or dirty water, around with it...
Bob Foster
Member
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2006
- Messages
- 8,870
Ask CU if he has an issue with heat.
R U serious? I actually planned on staying out of this debate. I think it is like arguing over Pizza hut or Domino's. But I have had my PTO for over 3 years (80,000+ miles, 3300 hrs on machine) with no tranny problems. Of course I do actually have the tranny fluid change at the recommended intervals. :shock: . There are many legitimate concerns about PTO or clutch drive units but the ones on you last posted were not only a one sided opinion of a slide in manufacturer but pretty lame on top of it. I have nothing against slide in I may even get one someday. Then again I may get another Cleanco Q56. It performs very well.
Art Kelley
Supportive Member
Welcome back Rex. I also haven't noticed any unusual developments in the transmissions of the three d/d vans I've owned. The '87 GMC tranny was replaced once at 115k, but that's not too odd.
One thing the author whose post I displayed pointed out was the high level of carbon monoxide with a slide-in engine run in your van. That in itself would give me pause in choosing between d/d or slide-in.
One thing the author whose post I displayed pointed out was the high level of carbon monoxide with a slide-in engine run in your van. That in itself would give me pause in choosing between d/d or slide-in.
Dolly Llama
Number 5
Rex Tyus said:
R U SERIOUS?????
Pizza Hut, HANDS DOWN!
Good to see you back, BTW
was it some kind of bacterial infection?
I was just thinking, doesn't all the effluent dumped in the south east corner of the country run down hill to the swAmp, you call home???
..L.T.A.
Duane Oxley
Moon Unit
Hey, Rex..
I can understand that it's your opinion that they're, "lame", but that doesn't change the fact that they're true.
You're one person who's had no problems with your transmission.
I've spoken to several who say otherwise. I don't want to get into specific brand names, because it's inappropriate. At the same time, I know what I know, from speaking with people who have PTO's. You're one person.
I'm not saying that you don't matter, etc. But I am saying that, compared to all I've spoken to, you don't override them.
Cleanco's, in particular, BTW, are the one PTO I think of when I think of low cleaning temperatures. Unless they have changed something in recent years, they simply don't measure up to the heat output of a typical PTO, let alone a good slide- in. I had a guy who was an Atlanta rep come by my place a while back (2000), who wanted me to see if I could tweak it for him. It needed another exchanger for more heat. So he got one. We put it on and still couldn't get it over 200 ATM...
That means 170 ATW... Sort of like a Little Giant #3.
Not saying they have problems. Cleanco has a good rep for reliability... just not fire breathing heat...
And personally, I see (my opinion is...) not being able to move a system at will (what if the van is in a wreck...?) as a problem.
... Same for carrying a hundred or more gallons of water around routinely.
... Same for packages that leave no space left in the van...
"Lame"...?
In your opinion, maybe irrelevant. But, "Lame"...?
IF you have a different opinion, I won't call you "Lame", or anything of the sort. I'll just chalk it up to difference of opinion... Difference of perspective...
Sorry to have bumped up against some sensitivity there...
I can understand that it's your opinion that they're, "lame", but that doesn't change the fact that they're true.
You're one person who's had no problems with your transmission.
I've spoken to several who say otherwise. I don't want to get into specific brand names, because it's inappropriate. At the same time, I know what I know, from speaking with people who have PTO's. You're one person.
I'm not saying that you don't matter, etc. But I am saying that, compared to all I've spoken to, you don't override them.
Cleanco's, in particular, BTW, are the one PTO I think of when I think of low cleaning temperatures. Unless they have changed something in recent years, they simply don't measure up to the heat output of a typical PTO, let alone a good slide- in. I had a guy who was an Atlanta rep come by my place a while back (2000), who wanted me to see if I could tweak it for him. It needed another exchanger for more heat. So he got one. We put it on and still couldn't get it over 200 ATM...
That means 170 ATW... Sort of like a Little Giant #3.
Not saying they have problems. Cleanco has a good rep for reliability... just not fire breathing heat...
And personally, I see (my opinion is...) not being able to move a system at will (what if the van is in a wreck...?) as a problem.
... Same for carrying a hundred or more gallons of water around routinely.
... Same for packages that leave no space left in the van...
"Lame"...?
In your opinion, maybe irrelevant. But, "Lame"...?
IF you have a different opinion, I won't call you "Lame", or anything of the sort. I'll just chalk it up to difference of opinion... Difference of perspective...
Sorry to have bumped up against some sensitivity there...
bob vawter
Grassy Knoller
A common theme, i believe, would be....those that are for slide ins....have never ACTUALLY owned a PTO...they're jus going by an errant belief...jus as I did...before i got my first Steam Genie.....
No sensitivity here. I said your criticism was lame not you. There is a difference. I could debate the pros and cons of the Cleanco but I don't won't to drag this out any longer than necessary. Carrying water around is as optional on a PTO as it is a slide in (that was what the lame comment was about). So I don't understand you even using that as a criticism of the PTO. It is a preference (read the "Am I at fault" post on ICS). As for packages that leave no space in the van. Again it is as optional as any add on for a slide in. Not a PTO specific issue. Duane you have an excellent reputation as being a stand up guy and builder of great products. Don't fall into the snake oil tactics of some of the others.
BTW My CLEANCO is a FLAME THROWER.
SERIOUSLY.
BTW My CLEANCO is a FLAME THROWER.
SERIOUSLY.
Bob Foster
Member
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2006
- Messages
- 8,870
Rex do you have the post heat option from Cleanco?
Supersucker
Member
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2008
- Messages
- 149
The problem with the slide-ins is the motor (at least my Briggs). Also have had problems with the engine/blower coupler (belts should be a bit more reliable). Pto units save space compared to most slide-ins (exception of Duane's).
That said, if I were to order a Butler I would tell them to keep their shelving & reels. I would consider the Hydramaster PTO as well. For a slide-in I would go with a small box van. It would be beneficial to have with the PTO as well (loading/unloading porty's, rugs, 175 etc.) but the installation would cost more.
I am also interested in a diesel slide-in, I think Judson has put a few together. A pto with LP post-heater in a sprinter would be awesome.
That said, if I were to order a Butler I would tell them to keep their shelving & reels. I would consider the Hydramaster PTO as well. For a slide-in I would go with a small box van. It would be beneficial to have with the PTO as well (loading/unloading porty's, rugs, 175 etc.) but the installation would cost more.
I am also interested in a diesel slide-in, I think Judson has put a few together. A pto with LP post-heater in a sprinter would be awesome.
