Dolly Llama
Number 5
Supersucker said:
who's TM?
Was it one of the "back yard" builders or one of the major manufactures?
I've sheared one coupler in 6000 hours
..L.T.A.
who's TM?
Was it one of the "back yard" builders or one of the major manufactures?
I've sheared one coupler in 6000 hours
..L.T.A.
Supersucker
Member
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2008
- Messages
- 149
Hydramaster 4.0 like in my sig.
Mike Draper
Member
- Joined
- Jan 13, 2008
- Messages
- 4,402
No problem with my PTO trans here. I'll be swapping my Butler into another van this summer. I know I can do it in about 7-8 hours with my friend. Pretty simple actually, but I grew up working on cars and engines and stuff so maybe it's different for me. BTW, if parts ever break ( which they haven't) the last place I go is butler, I would go to CAT for my pump or Tuthill for my blower the local auto store for belts or anything else. Butler is by far at least 30 percent more money for the same parts.
Jtuseo
Member
All of you please do yourselves a favor and sell your PTO's and slide ins buy a real mans Truck mount Nordic 1 Truck-mount!
steve g
Member
why don't direct drive manufacturers make a machine with an engine exhaust HX and a diverter valve, ala vortex and aerotech?? if they are worried about engine exhaust going up inside the van whiles its being driven, have some sort of manual gate valve that routes all the exhaust out the regular exhaust system.
everyone sure seems happy with their butlers only problem I see with them, is good god its looks like with the machine, tanks and reels, they pretty much wasted as much possible space in the van as they could. I like the idea of mounting the blower and pump between the seats up front.
everyone sure seems happy with their butlers only problem I see with them, is good god its looks like with the machine, tanks and reels, they pretty much wasted as much possible space in the van as they could. I like the idea of mounting the blower and pump between the seats up front.
Supersucker
Member
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2008
- Messages
- 149
Butler fit-out is terrible. Could do better with standard reels & shelving. Also need a rack over the machine console for blowers.
I would look to the Hydramaster/Cleanco design, would be much better.
I would look to the Hydramaster/Cleanco design, would be much better.
Larry Cobb
Member
We've built both Diesel-powered PTOs and Slide-In TM's.
PTO :
1. Usually about double the gas fuel consumption .
2. Designed only for exact year & make van. Very expensive (3K+) to reinstall when you want a new van.
3. Clutch drive usually the weakest point (transfer cases better).
4. Heat generally limited to water temp (~1% with optional HX).
5. Very limited truck selection.
6. Potential Heat Issues w/starter, alternator & power steering pump due to overheating
Slide-In :
1. Reliability dependent on manufacturer ability & experience.
2. Usually requires an operator with more mechanical ability.
3. Heat Exchanger quality & output varies from brand to brand.
4. Engine durability may be compromised by type and design (unless water-cooled).
5. More fuel savings with new Fuel Injected Engines.
6. Outlasts at least TWO vans.
Larry Cobb
PTO :
1. Usually about double the gas fuel consumption .
2. Designed only for exact year & make van. Very expensive (3K+) to reinstall when you want a new van.
3. Clutch drive usually the weakest point (transfer cases better).
4. Heat generally limited to water temp (~1% with optional HX).
5. Very limited truck selection.
6. Potential Heat Issues w/starter, alternator & power steering pump due to overheating
Slide-In :
1. Reliability dependent on manufacturer ability & experience.
2. Usually requires an operator with more mechanical ability.
3. Heat Exchanger quality & output varies from brand to brand.
4. Engine durability may be compromised by type and design (unless water-cooled).
5. More fuel savings with new Fuel Injected Engines.
6. Outlasts at least TWO vans.
Larry Cobb
diamond brian
Member
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2007
- Messages
- 973
Anybody else tried a CO detector in their van?
SpringerCarpet
Member
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2008
- Messages
- 10
Hi guys... new to the board... but lets just get this going...
My opinion after many years in the industry is that I would NEVER run a slide in for MANY reasons.
1. Heat inside van
2. smell inside van
3. Slide-ins (for me) always have something leaking. I'm a cleaner, I hate messes! Though I know many cleaners who really don't know what clean is. Just look inside their vans. GROSS!!
4. Harder to work on. Two engines to deal with and many more parts to fix.
5. More maintenance period.
For Direct Drives, I don't have to deal with any of that malarkey. I own a reliable Ford V10 and rarely have any issues. Just works. The set-up is much nicer where-as with a slide in, you're lucky to get the unit in the side door. I have the unit and all the hose reels out the side door and not to mention a small chemical shelf TOO!!
I went Direct Drive back in 1996 and never looked back and never will. Yes they cost a little more in gas but you know what?... I'll pay the extra gas to NOT have all the other problems associated with a slide-in.
And the issue about utilizing the van's engine is bogus! The vehicles engine will WAY out-last any tractor motor, any day. And I am sure their are exceptions, though I personally have never replaced a van engine. I buy new every 5 years. One thing I do that most guys running DD don't, is I open the engine hood on every job. This decreases the engine heat. Some say this looks terrible, but I say it looks Great! Because the customer will ask why do I have the engine hood open and I will tell them that my system runs of the van engine and has the most power, where most other cleaners run a small tractor motor with little to no power.
Also, I will say that anyone thinking that a slide in has more power than a direct drive is very ignorant and most likely knows nothing about a DD, even though they may lie through their teeth and say they do. I know many cleaners who would make better attorneys than cleaners! Such good liars!
My opinion on brands:
HydraMaster: Yes, they have distributors everywhere which is a definite plus if you are not mechanically inclined. But for the two units I owned, I had way more problems with HydraMaster than I care to deal with. I will say that Butler for me, has been the absolute most reliable. So for the few repairs I find myself doing, it's no big deal to have to become a part-time mechanic. But this is VERY part time as I rarely have any problems. My Butler is older and so I recently bought a White Magic... I had MANY problems with this machine for the first 200 hours, but after all the bugs have been worked out, the machine is running like it should.
I'm not really a fan of Cleanco because they believe in cfm's over lift. I believe in a balance of both cfm's and inches of mercury. Cleanco offers only 10 inches of mercury (lift) and I think that is ridiculous! Yes air-flow moves water, but with out enough lift, what's really going to move that volume of air through your hose?? It boggs down very easily, especially with their Quad 56.
On the other hand, White Magics Pro1200HV system offers 20 inches of lift which is double that of Cleanco and my carpets dry within two hours max!
Butler has very good vacuum for a 47 blower... probably the best around.
Their system which is called the 5.8 is really a 47 blower (for those of you that didn't know).
Prochems new Direct Drive is simply a Cleanco unit made for Prochem.
The only other PTO I would consider is an AeroTech. But for me, I don't have a place to park it and it is too big to do the things I need to do at this time. I don't want to have to rent a place to park it. Too Much.
If Butler would get a bigger blower into their big trucks, maybe I would consider one those in the future. They have a nice little 12 foot box. Good enough for me. But I want at least a 56 blower. Carpet simply dries faster even if you are only a single wand'er.
I hope this can help in your endeavor! Good luck.
My opinion after many years in the industry is that I would NEVER run a slide in for MANY reasons.
1. Heat inside van
2. smell inside van
3. Slide-ins (for me) always have something leaking. I'm a cleaner, I hate messes! Though I know many cleaners who really don't know what clean is. Just look inside their vans. GROSS!!
4. Harder to work on. Two engines to deal with and many more parts to fix.
5. More maintenance period.
For Direct Drives, I don't have to deal with any of that malarkey. I own a reliable Ford V10 and rarely have any issues. Just works. The set-up is much nicer where-as with a slide in, you're lucky to get the unit in the side door. I have the unit and all the hose reels out the side door and not to mention a small chemical shelf TOO!!
I went Direct Drive back in 1996 and never looked back and never will. Yes they cost a little more in gas but you know what?... I'll pay the extra gas to NOT have all the other problems associated with a slide-in.
And the issue about utilizing the van's engine is bogus! The vehicles engine will WAY out-last any tractor motor, any day. And I am sure their are exceptions, though I personally have never replaced a van engine. I buy new every 5 years. One thing I do that most guys running DD don't, is I open the engine hood on every job. This decreases the engine heat. Some say this looks terrible, but I say it looks Great! Because the customer will ask why do I have the engine hood open and I will tell them that my system runs of the van engine and has the most power, where most other cleaners run a small tractor motor with little to no power.
Also, I will say that anyone thinking that a slide in has more power than a direct drive is very ignorant and most likely knows nothing about a DD, even though they may lie through their teeth and say they do. I know many cleaners who would make better attorneys than cleaners! Such good liars!
My opinion on brands:
HydraMaster: Yes, they have distributors everywhere which is a definite plus if you are not mechanically inclined. But for the two units I owned, I had way more problems with HydraMaster than I care to deal with. I will say that Butler for me, has been the absolute most reliable. So for the few repairs I find myself doing, it's no big deal to have to become a part-time mechanic. But this is VERY part time as I rarely have any problems. My Butler is older and so I recently bought a White Magic... I had MANY problems with this machine for the first 200 hours, but after all the bugs have been worked out, the machine is running like it should.
I'm not really a fan of Cleanco because they believe in cfm's over lift. I believe in a balance of both cfm's and inches of mercury. Cleanco offers only 10 inches of mercury (lift) and I think that is ridiculous! Yes air-flow moves water, but with out enough lift, what's really going to move that volume of air through your hose?? It boggs down very easily, especially with their Quad 56.
On the other hand, White Magics Pro1200HV system offers 20 inches of lift which is double that of Cleanco and my carpets dry within two hours max!
Butler has very good vacuum for a 47 blower... probably the best around.
Their system which is called the 5.8 is really a 47 blower (for those of you that didn't know).
Prochems new Direct Drive is simply a Cleanco unit made for Prochem.
The only other PTO I would consider is an AeroTech. But for me, I don't have a place to park it and it is too big to do the things I need to do at this time. I don't want to have to rent a place to park it. Too Much.
If Butler would get a bigger blower into their big trucks, maybe I would consider one those in the future. They have a nice little 12 foot box. Good enough for me. But I want at least a 56 blower. Carpet simply dries faster even if you are only a single wand'er.
I hope this can help in your endeavor! Good luck.
bob vawter
Grassy Knoller
A man wit a wealth of knowledge......hi Tom!
SpringerCarpet
Member
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2008
- Messages
- 10
Hi Bob, Thanks for the compliment!
SpringerCarpet
Member
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2008
- Messages
- 10
You obviously have no clue about the new Pro1200HV.
But sorry for wasting my time responding to this.
But sorry for wasting my time responding to this.
bob vawter
Grassy Knoller
That Pro1200HV IS a monster...i was looking at one recently......Modernistic sells them!
Dolly Llama
Number 5
SpringerCarpet said:
Welcome Bro
You were doing good, but you lost me right there.
The weak link on DD is the clutch.
Good for about 32HP is all
Check it out.
those you accuse of lies, are actually more truthful than you
You mentioned opening the hood too.
There must some concern or you wouldn't look like you're broke down on every job
I think Jimmy mentioned he does that too with his Cleancold
...L.T.A.
bob vawter
Grassy Knoller
Larry..i NEVER had a clutch go out...and i get some serious Hg!
and leave the hood DOWN cuz it's the heat that you WANT!
and leave the hood DOWN cuz it's the heat that you WANT!
Shawn Forsythe
RIP
Larry Cobb said:
Holy smokes, Larry. You had some really terrible luck making those units then.
Most all those observations most certainly do not apply to the myriad of successful CDS systems that abound today. About the only one left true is the limited selection of trucks,... yes that's true.
bob vawter
Grassy Knoller
Well it's about TIME!
Shawn...ever grease a machine while it was running.....
Shawn...ever grease a machine while it was running.....
Dolly Llama
Number 5
bob vawter said:
how much HG, you pulling Bob?
Most of us are pulling 14 to 16 hg
and tell the class why you only spin that 47 @1600 RPM
Might as well be running a 36
..L.T.A.
bob vawter
Grassy Knoller
If i can get 16 Hg on a 100' run...WHY would i wanna spin it faster...PTO's are NOT made to spin any faster......i lock and load!
bob vawter
Grassy Knoller
OK..but i disagree....my suck doesn't suck...it sucks!
There can be no issues...cuz there ain't no plumbing....3" straight to the WT about 3'....?
There can be no issues...cuz there ain't no plumbing....3" straight to the WT about 3'....?
Dolly Llama
Number 5
Bob, I didn't ask what it "can" run.
I asked what hg you're running
(like day in and day out)
You won't turn that blower past 1600rpm cause you don't want to hurt it
(I don't believe that. It's because of stress on the drive line)
But you want me to believe you run it above Manufacture max HG?
(which I believe is 14hg for a 47)
why yu gotta lie, Pops?
..L.T.A.
I asked what hg you're running
(like day in and day out)
You won't turn that blower past 1600rpm cause you don't want to hurt it
(I don't believe that. It's because of stress on the drive line)
But you want me to believe you run it above Manufacture max HG?
(which I believe is 14hg for a 47)
why yu gotta lie, Pops?
..L.T.A.
ruff
Member
direct drive versus slide in
To bring it back to the issue at hand.....
I've had a few CDS machines on different Ford Vans (econoline 250.) Maybe I just have bad luck, but the first 1990 Ford blew a gasket a few times. Well, those Fords supposedly were notoriously bad. Afterward Ford would not endorse PTOs in their vans (void the warrantee.) They lost all the ambulance cotracts etc; About 2000 or so they started to endorse it again. Well my 2002 Ford already had engine problems and the transmission just died a few months ago. Yes, I maintain my van regualarly and diligently.
Duane does know what he is talking about.
My mechanic who is very experienced and knowledgeable claims that none of these vans engines is really designed to work for hours in idle. They are just not built for it and it gets damaged.
The CDS is a dependable machine but whenever I have a problem, when something goes wrong, it has no daddy. Ford blames it on Hydramaster, and guess who Hydramaster blames it on?
Also if you have a warranty repair at the dealership, all those union mechanics don't want to touch it. You have to call their boss and then his boss and then waste hours connecting them with your Hydramaster dealer and after a day or two of fighting them, they do it.
It gets old really quick.
My next one will be a slide in.
To bring it back to the issue at hand.....
I've had a few CDS machines on different Ford Vans (econoline 250.) Maybe I just have bad luck, but the first 1990 Ford blew a gasket a few times. Well, those Fords supposedly were notoriously bad. Afterward Ford would not endorse PTOs in their vans (void the warrantee.) They lost all the ambulance cotracts etc; About 2000 or so they started to endorse it again. Well my 2002 Ford already had engine problems and the transmission just died a few months ago. Yes, I maintain my van regualarly and diligently.
Duane does know what he is talking about.
My mechanic who is very experienced and knowledgeable claims that none of these vans engines is really designed to work for hours in idle. They are just not built for it and it gets damaged.
The CDS is a dependable machine but whenever I have a problem, when something goes wrong, it has no daddy. Ford blames it on Hydramaster, and guess who Hydramaster blames it on?
Also if you have a warranty repair at the dealership, all those union mechanics don't want to touch it. You have to call their boss and then his boss and then waste hours connecting them with your Hydramaster dealer and after a day or two of fighting them, they do it.
It gets old really quick.
My next one will be a slide in.
Hi Guys:
As you may know we have re-built a lot of different machines. But we stick to Butlers, simply because they sell. My son uses them for awhile, and then we sell them.
All the above is interesting. And we too have seen a lot of direct drive units, with transmission problems. However, we have never had a problem ourselves. This is because all that it requires is to monitor the trans fluid. Every problem I ever saw had burnt fluid first.
Thx,
Dale
As you may know we have re-built a lot of different machines. But we stick to Butlers, simply because they sell. My son uses them for awhile, and then we sell them.
All the above is interesting. And we too have seen a lot of direct drive units, with transmission problems. However, we have never had a problem ourselves. This is because all that it requires is to monitor the trans fluid. Every problem I ever saw had burnt fluid first.
Thx,
Dale
I run my cleanco at 12 hgs
I looked at WM/Hydramaster first.
Two local distributors dropped WM because of poor support.
The HM had those funky marine exchangers which I've seen clog up easily and had two bends in their shaft.Which meant more maintenance issues.
Steamgenie at the time was an option but they were going out of business.
I'll stick with my cleanco which only requires me to get in and clean.
I looked at WM/Hydramaster first.
Two local distributors dropped WM because of poor support.
The HM had those funky marine exchangers which I've seen clog up easily and had two bends in their shaft.Which meant more maintenance issues.
Steamgenie at the time was an option but they were going out of business.
I'll stick with my cleanco which only requires me to get in and clean.
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