Direct Drive vs slide in

[bob vawter]

Does anyone know how Matt King is doin' wit his new" SteamGenie King"....it looks pretty sweet!

Matt talk to us...!

 

[Tom Servo]

The thing about direct- drives, PTO's, or whatever you care to call them is that, when something goes wrong it's typically seen as a problem with Ford or Chevrolet, not whoever made the machine.

But PTO's are harder on a van's drive train...

Okay... let's see a show of hands... How many PTO owners have had their system for 3 years without having a transmission problem...?

And let's not forget the obvious: If you need to move the system for another reason, and it's a PTO, it's not that easy, to put it mildly. And if it's done, it's not going to be done in a day...

You can move a slide- in from one van to another in part of a workday...

I'm not saying that slide- in's are perfect. But neither are PTO's.

One thing that amazes me about PTO's is how much room they leave in a van... but how much is "really" left (virtually none), after all of the "package" is installed.

... and of course, that package weighs a lot, in addition to taking up so much space.

Give me a small, powerful slide- in with a pump- out any day, over a larger system that takes up the entire van and typically hauls 100 gal. or more of water, or dirty water, around with it...

4500 hrs 160k no transmision problems at all.

 

[Matt King]

Sorry Bob, been out of the loop for awhile... I like both slide in and pto machines. I used LP Sizzlers for years. I also had my Genesis. It just depends on what you need really. A typical pto won't give you the high pressure option or the 'mega' vac that some desire (although I feel it's plenty adequate for single wand use). You Need a lower pressure exchanger to help take the heat off of the engine. The lower pressure (500psi or so) heat exchangers used on the old SG pulled quite a bit more heat off of the motor than the higher psi copper like the rest use, myself included. That's why on mine I stuck with the .035 wall copper and set the max pressure for 1000 psi instead of offering a real high pressure option. I tested this for several months using different exchangers and an inline mounted coolant gauge to and from the exchanger. You get good heat and have a little room for a pressure increase if you need to do some tile work with the .035. I do have a new blower heat exchanger I designed with John in Florida a few weeks ago. It turned out really nice and is high quality. Blower exhaust temps aren't the only factor but outlet pressure is just as important. Force the hot air over/into the copper tubing and watch the heat climb fast. Accomplish it 2 ways, spin the blower faster or reduce the outlet plumbing size to create more pressure. You have to take into consideration engine rpm and pulley diameter if you plan on running the blower faster. The larger pulley diameter the better for the belts to hold. Then you need to take into consideration the driveshaft bearings and how hard do you really want to run the shaft? The bearing replacement interval was generally recommended to be around the 1000 hour mark for the old units. That's when the lubrication would start to break down. Shawn once told me the entire system is somewhat of a balancing act and it is. I had no idea the Butler high speed was 2000 rpm on the engine until I saw a new one run in Florida when I went down there. I can see how it ran so hot. Same with the old Hydramaster units. Even on my van jumping from 1300 to 1500/1600 rpm makes a huge difference in heat. So I guess, how much gas do ya wanna burn? How about your catalytic converter, head gaskets etc.. Your vac is tied to the belt system, pulley diameters, clutch, engine speed and driveshaft.. So how much stress do you want to put it under and how much life do you want out of it? Anything can be done if necessary... I went back to a pto for 2 reasons. One, I simply wanted to make the SG again. I enjoy doing it as I like mechanical things. I'd live in the garage if the wife would let me.. Two, I missed getting into a cooler interior on those hot summer days. It just makes my day easier. It's also nice to send my helper out in as he's not mechanically inclined at all. I just showed him what button to push and he's set. As for the transmission issue, I really can't say. I've never had one go bad. Not to say I never would but thus far I never have. I don't really see how running a pto hurts the transmission though. Fluid is just continually pumped through stainless tubes in the radiator core to get cooled down. If fluid temperature was that big of a concern to someone I'd just tack an extra cooler on the front of the radiator and pull some air through it. Most new 2500 and 3500 vans have built in oil coolers too. We ran pto's at Stanley Steemer years ago around the clock and never had transmission issues. An oil leak or two, sometimes water pumps would go out etc.. Like I said, it just all depends on what your needs are... As for the new machine, I'm really happy with it. I'll send ya out my new brochure..

 

[bob vawter]

Matt...have ya sold any yet?

 

[Matt King]

There's a couple on the road now.. I'd rather start slow and make sure there's no issues. I'm very confident in the machine but there's always something unforeseen that could arise and need to be addressed or changed. I just enjoy doing it, kind of like cleaning carpets. Hope to be at connections in the fall.... We'll see. I'm very grateful to those who have helped!

 

[Kevin B]

Okay... let's see a show of hands... How many PTO owners have had their system for 3 years without having a transmission problem...?

R U serious? I actually planned on staying out of this debate. I think it is like arguing over Pizza hut or Domino's. But I have had my PTO for over 3 years (80,000+ miles, 3300 hrs on machine) with no tranny problems. Of course I do actually have the tranny fluid change at the recommended intervals. :shock: . There are many legitimate concerns about PTO or clutch drive units but the ones on you last posted were not only a one sided opinion of a slide in manufacturer but pretty lame on top of it. I have nothing against slide in I may even get one someday. Then again I may get another Cleanco Q56. It performs very well.

A PTO is different than CDS

 

[Rex Tyus]

Power Take Off. For the sake of this discussion they are the same as there are only a couple of transmission power transfers on the market. But thanks for sharing. BTW CDS is trademarked by Hydramaster its use would certainly have brought an incomplete correction from someone splitting semantics as well. I encourage you to reread the entire thread and the context with which it was applied. 8)

 

[bob vawter]

Matt...what was the hardest part..so far?

 

[Dolly Llama]

CDS is trademarked by Hydramaster its use would certainly have brought an incomplete correction from someone splitting semantics as well.

welp, if we can't find something substantive to argue about
semantics works for me :wink:

a friend pointed out once that my sig line "L.T.A." didn't mean "love to all" as is intended.
(and i really do "try")

he suggested it meant "loves to argue"

i couldn't argue with that...... :shock:


..L.T.A.

 

[bob vawter]

I TOL ya that yous didn't love me, now....

sAAAAAAAAAAAAAAy it!

 

[Jimbo]

This has been an interesting thread...there really is no set answer...as their are convincing points in favor of each type of machine.

My preference over the years has been slide ins by Prochem...last one had 8200 hours on it when sold...it was a 4 cylinder unit...tweaked a bit...had a lot of heat and vacuum.

That being said..I am running a Vortex now...holy cow...talk about heat and vacuum...my hands look like they are sunburnt at the end of the day from the heat of the wand...and I sure like the convenience of water on the van...and an automatic hose reel at the end of the job.

I think regular maintenance plays a huge part in the long term success of whichever cleaning unit we choose...the guys who choose not to know their machine well are at a huge disadvantage compared to the cleaner who checks oil levels daily...looks at the drive components daily...checks for water leaks...etc...the hands on folks usually have equipment that far outlasts the stuff that only gets looked at when it breaks.- Jim

ps...Vortex is listed for sale on the Vortex info website

 

[Matt King]

Getting the new driveshaft just right was a chore... I got it nailed down though. Tweaking the jigs for each part and making sure laser cut dimensions were spot on from prints. All of which have been worked out now.