Do I really want to do this for a living?

[Guest]

I'm sure you can relate to to the squeeze by low income, foreign workers, both legit and illegal.

:|

On second thought, you should buy a 100 psi porti and get right to work! :roll:

 

[TimP]

I am Peter's son... and I clean carpets. (Sounds like a support group intro) and my name is Allen, but everyone calls me Al.
The company I work for has two different names and 2 different price structures. One is in Rockland County, NY where one has to be a licensed contractor, the other is Orange and Sullivan County's, where you do not need a license to clean carpets. We also serve a bit of Ulster, County NY as well. If you look at a map, it is the counties west of the Hudson River and directly above New Jersey. Parts of Orange and all of Rockland are fairly affluent suburbs, that's one business. Other places are not so affluent and perhaps beyond what you would call the NYC suburbs. We actually keep multiple shirts in our vehicles. :wink:
This morning I just finished up a job with another tech. This is a semi-annual job for a 8 story apartment/co-op building. My first question is how do you get truck mount equipment to the 8th floor? The other tech cleaned all the hall ways and lobby with a 9 gallon Powr-Flite self contained. He did around 4,000 sq ft for 20¢ per sq ft. He got 1/3 of that $800 invoice. He spent 11 hours on the job yesterday and another 5 hours today. That works out to about $16.65 per hour. We don't get paid OT, because the boss almost never lets us work more than 40 hours per week. While he did the halls, I did 4 apartments yesterday and today. Last time we were here, after seeing the hallways done, about 1/2 the apartments called up for their own apartment to be done, so a few days later several techs spent several days all over the building. I average $600-650 per week. I work hard. I use a non-heated Mytee Kodiak K100. There are about 4 techs with these machines that I know. I know the Powr-Flite guy and a guy with a Mytee 1001DX-200 Speedster Deluxe. They make $650-700 per week. None of us are over 30. My dad has worked hard all his life, I think he should try this, but I suspect he can't do it forever. I'd like to go to college. I'd like him to go to college too. My mother has an AAS in marketing and has a good job with a food manufacturer. She'd be the one to have ideas about how to get customers, not to insult my Dad, but he probably wouldn't have a clue.
I think we'll enjoy this forum. Thanks.

All I can say is you guys working for this company are suckers. 16.50 an hour before tax is pretty crappy. But you guys are probably doing lousy work too like 95% of the cleaners out there. 20 cents a ft for required porty work is way way low. I'd be at least 40-50 cents if I had to use a porty. And if it was CGD carpet you'd encap or OP clean and be done in 4-5 hours max, OP and encap clean better than hack cleaning too then you could charge 15 cents and destroy the company you work for. Anyways if you're going to do jobs that require portys then it will be cheaper for you to get in to the business but you will definitely want to increase that sq ft price. You want to be as close to 100 bucks an hour as possible. But you're also going to need to educate yourself and learn how to really clean carpet. Cleaning carpet with a porty and emulsifier aint gonna clean well at all. Hell with high heat in a TM, emulsifier alone isn't very good unless you use some lethal stuff like Bob Vawter. But plan on going back soon due to resoil.


All I can say is you have lots to learn and this forum can be very helpfull to you. But I suggest going to a formal carpet cleaning class, it will help you to understand things much faster.

 

[joey895]

My first question is how do you get truck mount equipment to the 8th floor?

It's not hard. There's different ways of doing it and I may not be the most efficient but I load a couple of sections of hose in the elevator ,strap it to the rail up top and lower it down to the truck.

I'll go up to the 10th floor with my truckmount if it makes sense based on the layout of the building and how much work is there ,other wise I use my portable. When I can afford it I'll be adding an OP machine. I would imagine my portable will get very little work after that.

 

[newbie_steaming]

.

 

[Mike Draper]

I agree, some of us may be doing great now, and some not so well. I have personally known 3 people in my life that at one time were making over a million dallars every year. All three never prepared for bad times or changes in technology, or lifes worst misfortunes that come upon us when we least expect it. Many things can change our lives overnight and could easily put us out of business. These people all spent every dollar they made while living the high life and just assumed that things would just keep floating along just fine. There have been many times in my life when I would have been very happy to have any job making $16.00 an hour. Just remeber, good things come and go. Life is always changing so be prepared.

 

[Mike Draper]

my point was all three of these men now make less than $16.00 an hour and one is even homeless, so be happy with what you got and be thankful for opportunities to make your life better.

 

[floorguy]

yeah but that $16.65 is probably done as a contractor and no taxes taken out....so right now take about 30% off to cover self employment tax...

that works out to about $11 an hr...and yup MOST of us pay our guys that well...

4000k sqft an in 16 man hrs....ick...thats an 8 hr day MAX depending on soil conditions etc....give me a helper and its less...


The $100 an hr mark is a good one to aim for, some are less some are more, but an avg of that works, to cover all the various expenses...some of us dont do it 8 hrs a day or more and so the $100 an hr is even more important...

 

[TimP]

yeah but that $16.65 is probably done as a contractor and no taxes taken out....so right now take about 30% off to cover self employment tax...
that works out to about $11 an hr...and yup MOST of us pay our guys that well...

4000k sqft an in 16 man hrs....ick...thats an 8 hr day MAX depending on soil conditions etc....give me a helper and its less...


The $100 an hr mark is a good one to aim for, some are less some are more, but an avg of that works, to cover all the various expenses...some of us dont do it 8 hrs a day or more and so the $100 an hr is even more important...

That's my point exactly. Once they pay their taxes they are screwed.

Also I call a company that does porty work for .20 cents fools. And to be subbed out 1/3 of that..... :roll: But that's just me.

Things seem bad right now but they aren't as bad as they could be. Recession means no growth. Depression means loss of growth, the country is in a recession with areas in depression. And some like the bosses in this case are making a killing out of it I bet.

Anyways if I was the boss sending out people doing porty work I'd think I had some suckers for sure. Also as a subcontractor you're supposed to have your own insurance too I'm sure, other wise you're an employee. Take that out of the 16 an hour too. Not to mention your own vehicle with insurance and wear and tear, what about health insurance too. You guys aren't making much unless your boss pays for all that and I doubt it at 20 cents a ft.

 

[Farenheit251]

Be careful about following in your current employers footsteps. Subcontracting is most often used to avoid payroll taxes and the IRS will come down very hard. A friend had a similar operation many years ago. One guy didn't pay taxes for 3 years and went to a cpa to get caught up. CPA says your really an employee and the employer is responsible for not withholding and employer up owing $90,000 in back taxes for all his subs.
A legitimate sub needs to have his own equip and chems. also he needs to be doing his own work-not just working for one company. Nothing wrong with subcontracting as long as it is done propperly. Search Mikeysboard for a post by Jim Pemberton on guidelines for subcontracting.

 

[Ron Werner]

With decent portable equipment, knowing how to do an above ave job, provide the extra svc, you could raise the price and market yourself to places where TM's can't go. There are lots of highrise condos in NY, aren't there? Lots of affluent people living in those condos, just need to market to find them.

If you cleaned just 2 condos/ day, got $300 for each. Thats $600/day, for 5 days, thats $3000/wk, $12000/month. You don't have to work hard, just keep your clients happy and getting referrals.
Keep your overhead as low as possible, and for your tax right offs, take some classes in different parts of the country, plus Connections and MyteeFest.

Threads like this one and Package Pricing are like IICRC Exams, they make me think about previous answers.

 

[lance]

Al, Peter's son, are you using a glide on your wand? You should be very proud of yourself because you're not only a hard worker but you are analyzing your situation to see what can be done better now AND for the future.

You and your dad have to really look into a mirror and see if you are willing to do almost anything to have a great business. It will take a lot of time and even more energy (both physical and mental) and you have to decide if you're in for the long haul or a short term situation. College is not the end-all answer to a happy job or career. It is mostly book work and passing tests that may never pertain to real life. It depends a lot on what you want to study...the harder the subject the more potential income down the road.

If you have your own business, you have to know ever facet of it. From the labor to customer service to marketing to accounting, etc. I think a successful business person is far ahead of someone who has a degree, and probably knows more real stuff than many people who have master degrees and work for somebody else.

I was very close to buying a highend portable so I could get started asap on my CC'ing business. But after six months of weighing the issues and really thinking about what I needed to clean carpets the way I wanted to I decided not to spend the money on one and wait to buy a TM. Right or wrong, I believe that equipment is very important in order to get great results and I am working a regular job full time in order to be able to get a TM. Everybody has to make their own decisions for themselves.

CC'ing is hard using a good TM, a portable seems to me to be even harder. I see myself cleaning with a TM that has lots of heat and vac while using the best wand possible (glided and high flow, of course). To me this is the most efficient and easiest way to have a CC'ing business. What's yours???

Cleaning the carpet is pretty easy. Become great at spotting, marketing, and customer service. If you talk to tons of cleaners like I have you and your dad will find the answers that fit you both the best. When you finally have the equipment that is perfect for you I think you'll both find out that it can be enjoyable and easy so you have a lot of years ahead of yourselves.

Good luck to both of you.

 

[LeeCory]

I am going to give you my honest advice. I don't think your son is working for a good company and you certainly don't want to do things the way he is.

I would stop collecting unemployment and get a full time job. I would then start a small business on the side. Do it on the side for awhile and see if it is something you think you want to do forever. And most importantly find out if you can make enough money to make it worthwhile.

But I would NOT touch your 401 or savings unless you are working fulltime at a job first.

What will your family think of you if you lose all your money on something you didn't go about the right way?

 

[lance]

Brent, great post. Keep it going.

Lee, you're right about doing it part time. Nothing wrong with doing CC'ing on the weekends. Every day gives you more experience.

 

[renegade_cowboy]

Brent, great post. Keep it going.

Lee, you're right about doing it part time. Nothing wrong with doing CC'ing on the weekends. Every day gives you more experience.

I really hopes he does it, this coule be a great thing. I'm not a guru or have a multi truck operation yet, but it just seems like a simple course of action **if your willing to do it**. You get out of it what you put into it.

 

[Greenie]

I'm with Josh, assuming your people skills are one step above Odin and Marty's, you'd do well to score a job and learn some more about the Industry as a whole, plus the best cleaning unit to use is someone else's investment in a struggling economy, take a 2-3 core cleaning related classes, like carpet, odor, and upholstery, and put some time on the clock with a truckmount while your son continues subbing porty work and you'll quickly see the path that will be most attractive for both of you.

Keep your money in your pocket/investements and get back to pulling a steady paycheck.

Do they really use single vac, 100psi machines 3 jobs a day? Is it a legit Co. or high pressure sales with a basic squirt and suck with whatever is under the bathroom sink if the fish don't bite?

In addition to revisiting my words above...cause some seemed to have missed the logical route, I would say....Guys..it's just a job, go easy on the kid, as soon as he figures a few things out, upgrades his equipment with a Proper professional high performance machine, adds a glided 14" wand, some secret sauce, keeps reading here daily, he'll be making 3X that per hour, and be on his way...sub or not. Just keep reading here daily, and yes pops go take a cleaning job for a year and see how it goes, it won't hurt ya, and keep that savings.

 

[Jay D]

If you work downtown with losts of highrises get a high performance portable. if you clean houses with driveway access to them you could get a truckmount. I would rather have a portable in a big city like NY city. If you both go to school get one machine and work opposite shifts keeping the one machine booked all the time. You can do it and make it workable if you make the EFFORT to do it. Work hard and smart. :wink:

 

[TimP]

I was over in Tallahassee yesturday doing a job for a relative. This does kinda go with this thread.

Anyways I got 2 walk ups while cleaning. I was in what I figured to be a decent neighborhood but anyways they both wanted to know my price to clean. Of course they only wanted to know room price, and I price by ft. Anyways I told them an idea of room price. They about dropped their jaw....I think they were used to 10-15 bucks a room. One guy said he got his whole place done for 40 bucks, my minimum is 85. Anyways I'd have to do a bunch of jobs at 40 bucks a pop to make what I do in 2-3 of my regular jobs. Not to mention the time wasted driving from job to job and the gas burned driving around. Hell setting up the damn truck takes too long to make 40 bucks. I also it's hard to believe people work for less than what Stanley Steamer charges.

Moral of the story is working cheap isn't very bright. Work for a fair price and stay out of the ghetto like Bob. You'll have to work way less and make the same if not more and keep more of what you earn in your pocket. There is a lot of hidden expense in this business, it's nice to look at the dollar figure you charge and think wow I made good money there but if you charge 15-20 bucks a room you didn't make near as much as it seems. And keep in mind charge as much as you can.

 

[Fon Johnson]

Peter, is Al a sub-contractor? If he is, I missed that part. As I understand it he may have everything furnised, but uses his own vehicle?

If he is a sub, he is not making a lot of money. If he is simply using his vehicle, I don't think that makes him a sub, and by the time he deducts mileage he may be doing pretty good. I'm not an accoutant, so I'm not going to say what is right, what is wrong, or make a judgement.

If he is an employee, $600 to $700 a week is not bad. I wish I had made that kind of "coin" when I was 19! Just how good it is depends on what he furnishes, and how he is classified. People are too quick to judge.

Peter, maybe you should consider getting a small used van, a good high powered portable (Mytee could take care of that) a 175 rotary, a couple of cheap airmovers, sprayers and bonnets, and a good wand from Greenie. Let Al go out and clean, and you help as you can. BUT before you do that you need to consider: Where will the work come from? Get to marketing, and don't fall into the traps other do. Take a class or two, and maybe get a couple of people to sort of mentor you. Develop a business plan FIRST and start out knowing what your numbers are, and what you need to charge to make the desired profit. Plan your work, and work your plan setting aside enough to grow. I would HIGHLY recommend putting aside enough cash to but a truckmount outright. Don't blow your savings and retirement on a "get rich quick" scheme, but rather slowly build a business and nourish it. Including a decent used van, you can get started for less than 10 grand. You will have what you need for commercial, residential, lock-ins, and high rise work. Once you can afford to buy a truckmount, your productivity will go to another level, and you won't be strapped by making payments.

What you charge per room or square foot does not depend what people here say, or that magical "$100 per hour" figure. If you know your numbers, you will KNOW what you need to charge to make a profit. You should re-evaluate quarterly and see if you are doing that. It is a little tough to know starting out just exactly what your expenditures will be, but you don't want to wait until the end of the year to find out you are breaking even, or worse yet loosing money. Your cost of doing business will be different from that of others, so you cannot take anyones word for it on that.

I know companies that are huge, and doing very well. According to many here, they are not charging enough and on the verge of going under..

 

[Dolly Llama]

Moral of the story is working cheap isn't very bright. Work for a fair price and stay out of the ghetto like Bob. You'll have to work way less and make the same if not more and keep more of what you earn in your pocket. There is a lot of hidden expense in this business, it's nice to look at the dollar figure you charge and think wow I made good money there but if you charge 15-20 bucks a room you didn't make near as much as it seems. And keep in mind charge as much as you can.

I read your posts and many of them have useful and accurate info.
However, too many of them sound like "text book taught in class stuff" from instructors that find it easy to tell others "how to" and "what to" when they them selves have found the gold digging much easier "instructing" than actually running a CC'ing biz anymore.

You're two years in this biz, don't just parrot what you've been "taught" as gospel til you actually have more than a couple years experience applying them.
Most of the dudes teaching this stuff no longer run a CCing biz.
Some haven't run a biz in years and years.
Ever wonder why??


Unless you're as busy as you can be (or want to be)
I can assure you, a "little" profit is better than NO profit, even if it isn't your target profit goal.
I'd go as far to suggest even "break even" jobs are worth pursuing, as it keeps the wheels turning and building contacts.
cause the truth is, you're LOOSING money when the van sits in the drive.
Even if it's paid for, you're still paying Ins on it

I'm curious;
does your wife have a good paying job with bennies?
Do you have other sources of income other than your CCing biz of two years?
if so, you're in a different position than many you freely give advise to.


honestly, i can't understand some of the advise I've read from the "charge hi-price or stay at home" dudes I've seen given over the years.
It's doesn't seem like good plan to me if you actually have to depend on your biz to support the family.

'coarse, I'm not a very good biz man and have never been a gUru instructor that got OUT of running a CCing biz years ago ....

and i don't play one on TV either

..L.T.A.

 

[breathe72]

To Al and his Dad:

Just go for it.

Plain and simple.

You will see alot of these Nancys on here, taking themselves and this job WAY too seriously.

You will get some of the best guidance ever from these same folks.

Don't get turned off by naysayers or the Chiken Littles on this board.

STAY on this board and continue to ask questions, the best answers will arrive within minutes sometimes. Just remember to give it back once you've gained some knowledge of this trade and another CC'er asks for help on this board. Thats how this deal works.

Just do it and have fun.

Best of luck!

No two people in this trade do things the same way.

Play around with it till you develop a formula that keeps the phone ringing.

The rest will take care of itself.

 

[Cameron1]

Moral of the story is working cheap isn't very bright. Work for a fair price and stay out of the ghetto like Bob. You'll have to work way less and make the same if not more and keep more of what you earn in your pocket. There is a lot of hidden expense in this business, it's nice to look at the dollar figure you charge and think wow I made good money there but if you charge 15-20 bucks a room you didn't make near as much as it seems. And keep in mind charge as much as you can.

I read your posts and many of them have useful and accurate info.
However, too many of them sound like "text book taught in class stuff" from instructors that find it easy to tell others "how to" and "what to" when they them selves have found the gold digging much easier "instructing" than actually running a CC'ing biz anymore.

You're two years in this biz, don't just parrot what you've been "taught" as gospel til you actually have more than a couple years experience applying them.
Most of the dudes teaching this stuff no longer run a CCing biz.
Some haven't run a biz in years and years.
Ever wonder why??


Unless you're as busy as you can be (or want to be)
I can assure you, a "little" profit is better than NO profit, even if it isn't your target profit goal.
I'd go as far to suggest even "break even" jobs are worth pursuing, as it keeps the wheels turning and building contacts.
cause the truth is, you're LOOSING money when the van sits in the drive.
Even if it's paid for, you're still paying Ins on it

I'm curious;
does your wife have a good paying job with bennies?
Do you have other sources of income other than your CCing biz of two years?
if so, you're in a different position than many you freely give advise to.


honestly, i can't understand some of the advise I've read from the "charge hi-price or stay at home" dudes I've seen given over the years.
It's doesn't seem like good plan to me if you actually have to depend on your biz to support the family.

'coarse, I'm not a very good biz man and have never been a gUru instructor that got OUT of running a CCing biz years ago ....

and i don't play one on TV either

..L.T.A.

It has been this way all along Larry. Plenty of advice, but no proven long-term track record. It mostly comes from the one-horse dog and pony shows that are about as opinionated as CBS news. They love to tell everyone how to run a business, or the best method to get referrals, while at the same time dog-cussing the "gurus'".

The funny part is, unless you are just new to the business, you should be able to run one truck without a whole lot of effort, and without a whole lot of marketing. It is a whole different story when you are running Multi trucks, and supporting multi families with income, insurance, workman comp, retirement, and Holidays. It is different animal when you are the sole supporter of some of these families.

I have always figured that alot of these solo guys had wifes with gravy jobs that provided most of their benefits, and that a lot of em just clean carpet as a hobby.

Mikey, This does not mean that they are not Honest, hard- working, salt of the earth folks who come to these boards to hone their craft. It just means that I think they have a limited view of how the real world of business works.

 

[FB7777]

totally agree Steve and Larry

I've never understood individuals that have so little experience, yet have so much opinion

 

[Joel D]

My two cents

Wait, read here and other forums like crazy writing things down

take a carpet cleaning class-pembertons may have one coming up in PA

decide on a business name and pay Wayne Miller to design a logo

Buy a 175 rotary machine and a good porty or truckmount-maybe get a loan but avoid the bucket brigade

buy a used van thats decent trading in whatever vehicle you have now-if you dont want to do that youre not commited