Steve Lawrence
Member
I dual wanded a little when we had a Ballweber with a 59 Sutor but wasn't super impressed with the power split up. We never dual with our 47 Butlers. Not enough suck.
Dual Wanding, what have you tried unit wise?
- Thread starter Mikey P
- Start date
Advantage to a slide in would be being able to use a gas truck, even a gas but then with the new vans hitting the market that's tempting too. Now add the fact that somebody will have a clutch drive available for those by the time I'm ready and I dunno wtf I'm gonna do.
*even a gas npr
Zee
Supportive Member
Bob, I don't think any of us doubt that you can dual wand....but many of us doubt that you can efficiently extract with it.
One can dual wand with a freakin' shop vac...but is that really a good idea?
We have tried dual wanding with 45s several times. (Oxley built tm and El Diablos) not worth the hassle. It simply doesn't perform well.
When I see or hear the likes of masterblend and others how their unit is a dual wand unit....I just cringe and have a nervous laugh- they surely don't know that the fact they have TWO vac ports on the waste tank, will NoT make it dual wand capable.
renegade_cowboy
Member
We use a 45 and a 47 blower with dual active vacuum ports and you CAN dual wand, but you have the suction of a portable. Works okay if one is doing carpet and the other is doing upholstery.
Art Kelley
Supportive Member
You have the suction of a dual 3 stage portable provided you can keep both wands on the carpet at ALL times, which is generally not possible. With two rotary extractors that is not a problem, and that is why it works.
Art Kelley
Supportive Member
Nice to see you posting here Brent.
Steve Lawrence
Member
Lots of nice, honest answers in this thread. I'm thinking those big Prochems and Sapphires may actually be able to dual wand alright--any user commenters?
GeneMiller
Member
The thermal wave does a good job on dual but it has no heat. The blower is being spun at the correct speed and I changed out the plumbing to 4" from the blower to the filter box. It didn't matter for single but you could tell the difference with two. Hoping the new 870 is spinning the blower at the correct speed and will handle the heat load for two zippers. ill be very happy if thats the case otherwise I'll change out the pulley.
Gene
Gene
Mikey P
Administrator
Gene, remind me..why are you waiting to install that 870?
Vincent Feehan
Member
My 4.10 650Hp with dual 2.5 ports can dual wand, heat isn't very good with a zipper and Ti or the SW wand, stock with 2.0 ports and 2.0 hose I think it would be a joke if you had any class sucking rugs for people
Bob Savage
Member
Good to see all of your comments about dual wanding with a #45 blower, but it sounds like to me you haven't quite figured it out yet, not that you're trying to. It's more about the entire vacuum system, than it is about the blower itself. It took me a few years to get this right, and I started over 20 years ago.
I agree that if the vacuum were wimpy in any way, it is a deal breaker. Do you think I would clean if there were any compromises in the vacuum, heat or pressure? We are currently using a 2" wand with an 8 flow, and a 1.5" wand with a 6 flow (14 flow total - not exactly stingy).
There is no need to ever keep a wand on the floor while using the other, even if we are out 300' total (150' each wand). We still have the same screaming, hard suck vacuum at each wand. The heat is relentless and is never turned up all the way, still popping at each wand when we are cleaning. The pop also means the flow/pressure is not compromised.
Mike asked for a video. I can do a video, but what would you need to see and hear?
Here's an old one I did a few years ago, that shows the wand sound with one wand laying open off the carpet (total of 260" of vacuum hose), but unless you actually run this machine, I guess you will still be a doubting Thomas.
Note: When you see the second wand, remember the first wand is still laying open on the floor - a must for a true dual wand setup. No Compromise! This video shows 2 -1.5" wands.
I agree that if the vacuum were wimpy in any way, it is a deal breaker. Do you think I would clean if there were any compromises in the vacuum, heat or pressure? We are currently using a 2" wand with an 8 flow, and a 1.5" wand with a 6 flow (14 flow total - not exactly stingy).
There is no need to ever keep a wand on the floor while using the other, even if we are out 300' total (150' each wand). We still have the same screaming, hard suck vacuum at each wand. The heat is relentless and is never turned up all the way, still popping at each wand when we are cleaning. The pop also means the flow/pressure is not compromised.
Mike asked for a video. I can do a video, but what would you need to see and hear?
Here's an old one I did a few years ago, that shows the wand sound with one wand laying open off the carpet (total of 260" of vacuum hose), but unless you actually run this machine, I guess you will still be a doubting Thomas.
Note: When you see the second wand, remember the first wand is still laying open on the floor - a must for a true dual wand setup. No Compromise! This video shows 2 -1.5" wands.
Vincent Feehan
Member
Nice work Bob, sounds pretty strong
Mikey P
Administrator
damn Bob, now you have me wondering...great video!
How about you shoot one showing how the unit is set up allowing you to create the audible flow?
How about you shoot one showing how the unit is set up allowing you to create the audible flow?
I will put something out here, I rigged a cfm gauge to go in the run between the wand and the truck mount. I tested several different wands, and what I did was place a towel over wand slot folding it till I reached @ 10 hgs on the TM vac gauge.
After that was done I came back to look at the cfm meter to see how much air flow was going through the hose at 10" of HG..... All the wands came back in the same range of 135-140 cfm if I remember right.
A 45 blower running at max with no choke points is pulling 330-350 range
A 45 blower Over spun with no chock points could be in the 400+ cfm range
Now I am not sure how Bob Savage has his set up but 400 cfm split in half is 200 cfm still well above the 135-140 range.
What I don't understand is how Bob is getting the proper lift out of it to pull enough moisture out of the carpet. I don't think I have ever read any where Bob bragging about super fast dry times and that really is not the point, as long as the job is done professionally.
Remember millions of people clean carpet every day with rug doctors with very little suction and how long has that been done for 40+ years ?? So it must not be as big of a deal as we make it out to be really.
After that was done I came back to look at the cfm meter to see how much air flow was going through the hose at 10" of HG..... All the wands came back in the same range of 135-140 cfm if I remember right.
A 45 blower running at max with no choke points is pulling 330-350 range
A 45 blower Over spun with no chock points could be in the 400+ cfm range
Now I am not sure how Bob Savage has his set up but 400 cfm split in half is 200 cfm still well above the 135-140 range.
What I don't understand is how Bob is getting the proper lift out of it to pull enough moisture out of the carpet. I don't think I have ever read any where Bob bragging about super fast dry times and that really is not the point, as long as the job is done professionally.
Remember millions of people clean carpet every day with rug doctors with very little suction and how long has that been done for 40+ years ?? So it must not be as big of a deal as we make it out to be really.
You know they make anti flood hoses for refer ice makers and such so if the hose pops the pressure out flows the special valve and it springs closed saving a huge mess.
It would be really cool to design a valve that would do the same for running dual wands, so if wand was picked up the valve would react and close keeping the other wand with full vac, I guess you could say it would keep the two hose runs balanced at all times.
It would be really cool to design a valve that would do the same for running dual wands, so if wand was picked up the valve would react and close keeping the other wand with full vac, I guess you could say it would keep the two hose runs balanced at all times.
Zee
Supportive Member
I will take the burden of being called the Thomas...(and how appropriate right now as Easter is being celebrated) but: just listening to the noise of two wand gaps tells me nothing. The first one could have had half a kitten worth of hair and lint stuck in the wand attic and creating the noise level. The second wand upstairs was not sounding impressive even on the video.
I would me more interested why your 45 is different... And how is it set up and what speed it is being spun etc etc
I would me more interested why your 45 is different... And how is it set up and what speed it is being spun etc etc
Bob Savage
Member
1st Thomas - The CFM is NOT split in half at all. If 1 wand has 340 CFM, so does the other one. I get super fast dry times with this setup, or I wouldn't be using it. Each vac hose will suck your hand beat red at 150' each wand (total 300').
2nd Thomas - Zee, as far our 45 being different, it has a 4" silencer, not a 2.5" one (and no 90º bends in discharge plumbing, only 45º), it is LP heat so no HX in the vacuum airstream anywhere, and we are feeding the blower separate 2" vacuum inputs right at the 2.5" blower intake, as well as 2 separate 2" vac ports coming out of the tank, for a total of 4 separate 2" ports on the recovery tank. We are running the Honda at 3000 RPM, but over-driving the blower, to keep CFM's up, and fuel consumptioon down. As far as the wand sound, it's like that all the time so it's not a hair problem.
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Zee
Supportive Member
So what would you say the blower speed is?
The units we tried dual wanding with were both without heat exchangers. (oxley was a propane burner heater and the El D is a diesel burner heater) So no choking there... but the El D is a direct coupler driven blower so it would be running with the Honda at 3000rpm. So the only real difference would be blower speed maybe.
The units we tried dual wanding with were both without heat exchangers. (oxley was a propane burner heater and the El D is a diesel burner heater) So no choking there... but the El D is a direct coupler driven blower so it would be running with the Honda at 3000rpm. So the only real difference would be blower speed maybe.
Bob Savage
Member
The real difference is the larger hose diameter going from the blower intake to the recovery tank - period.
The blower is turning at 3429 RPM - 8" pulley on the motor, 7" pulley on the blower.
The blower is turning at 3429 RPM - 8" pulley on the motor, 7" pulley on the blower.
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renegade_cowboy
Member
What about the size of the wand? I was using a 2 inch wands when testing.. a mytee bentley and the red headed step child.. but I notice when I use the crevice tool attachment on my vacuum cleaner it increases the lift.
What's your definition of "not very good" Vince?
Lee Stockwell
FOJL
Bob you've repeated the notion several times that "the CFM is NOT cut in half".
Do you understand what you are claiming?
Do you understand what you are claiming?
Steve Smith
Member
- Joined
- Nov 15, 2006
- Messages
- 176
I think that statement is why there are so many "doubting Thomas'".
I would like to see a video of you lift guage while one wand is off the carpet and the other wand is cleaning.
Bob Savage
Member
Yes, I do Lee, do you have something to substantiate otherwise?
And, this is not a debate. I'm trying to share what I know. If you're not interested, scroll on by. I have nothing to gain by anyones acceptance.
Desk Jockey
Member
On the Prochem 805 you can run (3) hose setups and leave them unblocked and not tell if it is a single setup.
You don't need to keep the wand sealed to the floor to maintain a suction.
You don't need to keep the wand sealed to the floor to maintain a suction.
Walt
Member
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2007
- Messages
- 1,016
I've dual wanded with a 6008 vortex. I've dual wanded with 5009 genesis dxt (diesel). Both were legit with a slight nod to the 6008.
On a some jobs it was amazing. On most it was akward. Most homes here are older with narrow entryways, hallways and lots of stairs. We would end up with a huge mess of hoses out in front of the house all tangled up. Almost needed a third person for hose management.
I think in the right neighborhoods with minimum drive time between jobs its perfect. Otherwise…
On a some jobs it was amazing. On most it was akward. Most homes here are older with narrow entryways, hallways and lots of stairs. We would end up with a huge mess of hoses out in front of the house all tangled up. Almost needed a third person for hose management.
I think in the right neighborhoods with minimum drive time between jobs its perfect. Otherwise…
Lee Stockwell
FOJL
CFM is a measure of air volume per minute, a finite number similar to a pump with a certain GPM number.
If a blower moves 400 CFM and 200 CFM of that moves through wand #1 then only 200 CFM is available to go through wand #2.
If a blower moves 400 CFM and 200 CFM of that moves through wand #1 then only 200 CFM is available to go through wand #2.
Bob Savage
Member
There is a system to dual wand hose management. The first thing is color coding each wand setup. Vac and solution hoses are different colors, so you never get them mixed up where they are coming together. This keeps each wand's hoses separate. Next, the first set of hoses is longer so it can reach all the way to the furthest point. The tech with the longer hoses gets a little more area to clean so the second tech can finish first and get his hoses all put away. The second tech can also put away other things such as a fresh water hose, spotting chemicals, etc., while the first tech finishes, and one tech wraps up the rest. Then the other one finishes up with the customer.
Bob Savage
Member
I disagree. Get some gauges and test it. What I do know is that what I say about our setup works. It runs dual wands like it was 2 separate machines, and gets great dey times. You are not that far from me. I challenge you to come here and go out with me cleaning. If this Truckmount does not perform more than adequate, I will buy you the best steak dinner in town, and you can claim victory over me and be the MB hero.
