~H202~

Mikey P

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Ok Folks here you go. The same 23 questions were asked to Larry Cobb, Jim Pemberton, Bill Yeadon, John Olsen, Scott Warrington and Shawn Forsythe. Some of the questions were asked in a way to create a varied response form the participants. I think that there is plenty to be learned here but I would encourage all of you to ask more questions to the guest of your choice.


I'd suggest you print it out and take it into the can with you.


Enjoy.

Cobb’s answers:


1. Would you agree the competent fabric/carpet identification knowledge is the number issue when using Peroxide?
A. Knowing that cotton, wool, silk, linen, and other natural fibers can be degraded by strong concentrations of peroxide is the key. Solution-dyed nylon fiber and olefin are unlikely to be damaged by typical solutions.
2. What kinds of spots and stains can peroxide be used safely on?
A. Coffee, tea, dye color, browning, odor-producing deposits, dull traffic lanes, blood, protein stains, mustard (with UV)
3. What won’t it work on?

A. Reducing Agents are usually better on coffee, tea, water, red food dye, Iodine and other "yellow stains"
4. Please explain the difference between reducing agents and oxidizing agents?
A. Oxidizing agents ADD oxygen to the staining compounds (breaking down "chromaphores")
Reducing Agents REMOVE oxygen from the staining compound (breaking down "chromaphores")
On difficult stains, both need to be tested for effectiveness.
5. What is the safest way to go about using peroxide on a specific stain?
A. Reduce the concentration of the peroxide to about 3% (10 Volume).
6. What other surfaces can Peroxide (and Ammonia) be used on?
A. Oxidizing agents can be used for hard-surface and grout cleaning. We prefer the powder oxidizers for these jobs.
7. How would you recommend explaining about the use of peroxide to the homeowner?
A. Oxygen-releasing color-safe bleach.
8. What precautions should the technician take when dealing with peroxide?
A. Determine if the fiber is a natural one. Determine the age and condition of the fiber.
9. What fibers could be harmed and in what way by the use of peroxide?
A. The biggest danger would be OLD cotton or wool fiber, that is already oxidized to the point that it has started to yellow & degrade.
10. How do you suggest using peroxide as a pre spray booster?
A. I would use Percarbonate instead, since it has lower cost and higher pH.
11. Are there any limitations on just how much can be used as a booster?
A. Yes, I would not use more than 3% in a prespray on commercial carpet.
12. Please explain the differences between liquid peroxide, Sodium Percarbonate and Powdered Peroxide?
A. Liquid Peroxide - stable at any strength between 3% and 35% (unstable @ higher percentages).
Sodium Percarbonate - if full strength, is equivalent to 27.5% Hydrogen Peroxide (90 Volume).
Powdered Peroxide - Could be anything
13. Please explain why Oxy Clean often times turns carpet yellow?
A. Oxy-Clean is only about 55% Percarbonate. So that leaves 45% "other ingredients".
The yellowing is probably from over-oxidation of the fibers, not enough rinsing
14. Why do some manufacturers add fillers to their powdered “oxy” boosters?
A. To lower the cost, or to make them less hazardous.
15. Are there substitute oxidizing agents that are used in place of peroxide and why?
A. There are many others, but Sodium Percarbonate is the main substitute in our industry.
16. What exactly is happening when ammonia is added to peroxide to boost its performance?
A. It is only raising the pH. Any high pH product will also suffice.
By raising the pH, the oxygen is released from the liquid peroxide.
17. Why are 4th generation nylon fibers damaged by peroxide when 5th generation fibers are not? Are Generations one through three just as susceptible?
A. The only difference would be due to the additional fiber protection on the 5th gen. Fibers.
18. What is the difference in raising the level of ammonia compared to raising the level (volume) of peroxide? How does either affect the pH?
A. A smaller amount of ammonia is needed, compared to the volume of 3% peroxide.
19. You have a spot on a cotton fringe that is not responding to a reducing agent, all you have on the truck is 40 Volume peroxide, how do you go about safely using it?
A. If the fringe is old & weak, I would not use Peroxide at all.
If the fringe is in good mechanical condition, I would use 6% , rinse it out and dry quickly.
20. If you need to dilute peroxide will distilled, soft or tap water make a difference?
A. Not, if you are going to use it immediately. Distilled will keep the peroxide stable for a longer period of time.
21. Please explain your procedure for removing a 3 month old black coffee spill on a 5th generation nylon that has not responded to the home owners attempts?
A. I would use a powder reducing agent @ 2oz./quart of HOT water.
2nd choice- I would use peroxide @ 3% concentration with HOT water.
22. Which should be used first on a old ground in blueberry stain a reducing agent or an oxidizing agent?
I would try both in separate test areas. If I had to choose one, I would expect the powder reducing agent to work in more situations.
23. Why is Larry Cobb the only one selling plain liquid peroxide to his carpet cleaning customers?
The answer is because we are an actual formulator for our spotting chemicals and peroxide is cost-effective. It does also contain a stabilizer & a penetrant to even out the action.







Pembertons:

1. Would you agree the competent fabric/carpet identification knowledge is the number issue when using Peroxide?
Yes. Bleaches, even peroxide and sodium percarbonate, can weaken cellulose fibers. All such products must be used with caution on cotton fringes, as well as area rugs and upholstery made from any cellulose fiber. Also, such bleaches may discolor dyes on protein fibers and, less commonly, acid dyed nylon.

2. What kinds of spots and stains can peroxide be used safely on?

Answer: Peroxide and related products work best on stains that are organic in nature, including tannins and proteins, as well as some petroleum based stains and ink pigments.

3. What won’t it work on?
Answer: Peroxide works on a wide variety of other stains as well, but there are times that less aggressive approaches make more sense in relation to textile sensitivity or technician skill.

4. Please explain the difference between reducing agents and oxidizing agents?
Answer: Oxidation has been described as “a combination with oxygen” or “removal of hydrogen”. Extreme oxidation occurs when something is burnt and oxygen in the air combines during the combustion process. An oxidizing agent makes oxygen available for chemical reactions. Reduction means “removal of oxygen” or “combination with hydrogen”. The choice of which product to use is made based on the staining material, the sensitivity of the textile, and the judgment and skill of the technician.

5. What is the safest way to go about using peroxide on a specific stain?
Answer: First, follow all label directions, including safety precautions. Products that are 30 volume (roughly 9.1%) and higher can burn skin and eyes. As in question # 1, cellulose textiles may be damaged by strong concentrations of peroxide. The use of heat or accelerants (such as ammonia) must be used with caution on all protein fibers and acid dyed nylon fibers.

6. What other surfaces can Peroxide (and Ammonia) be used on?

Answer: The Marble Institute has some guidelines for using peroxide on stains. Sodium Percarbonate products have proven to be effect on grout stains as well.

7. How would you recommend explaining about the use of peroxide to the homeowner?
Answer: I would limit my suggestions to the use of 3% peroxide only, if that.

8. What precautions should the technician take when dealing with peroxide?
Answer: See #5. Always follow the guidelines of label directions and MSDS.

9. What fibers could be harmed and in what way by the use of peroxide?
Answer: See # 5.
10. How do you suggest using peroxide as a pre spray booster?
Answer: My experience has been limited to the use of Sodium Percarbonate as a booster, and my answer would be to follow the label directions of the product that contains the Sodium Percarbonate and the prespray. My father used peroxide as a booster in shampoo in the 60’s and early 70’s. His back ground was in the use of peroxide in the dry cleaning plant for stain removal, and any additive solutions he used were guess work and experience.

His only complaint about using peroxide in that manner was its instability over time from light and heat, and the difficulty of predicting its reaction and strength at any given time in whatever solution he added it to.

Due to the wide variety of chemical formulations used in presprays, its difficult to predict how peroxide would react to every individual product and the manufacturers of those products would likely be hesitant to recommend the use of peroxide with their products for that reason.

11. Are there any limitations on just how much can be used as a booster?


Answer: As with # 10, its difficult to advise how much peroxide to add based on the variety of products, degree of water hardness, and shelf life and stability issues.

12 Please explain the differences between liquid peroxide, Sodium Percarbonate and Powdered Peroxide?
Answer: Sodium Percarbonate (sometimes called “Powdered Peroxide”) is made from combining hydrogen peroxide and sodium carbonate. Sodium Percarbonate functions as a bleaching agent, alkaline booster, and water softener.

13.Please explain why Oxy Clean often times turns carpet yellow?
Answer: Its likely the Sodium Carbonate portion of Sodium Percarbonate that causes this condition. Its mostly a result of overapplication of the product.

14. Why do some manufacturers add fillers to their powdered “oxy” boosters?
Answer: The formulation of products is the business of the manufacturers. As Sodium Carbonate is an integral part of such boosters, but is also used as a filler for detergents, it might be difficult to determine how much is active ingredient, and how much is filler.

15. Are there substitute oxidizing agents that are used in place of peroxide and why?

Answer: The reason that Sodium Percarbonate type products are often more popular than peroxide is that the granular products are more stable in storage until mixed with water when needed.

16. What exactly is happening when ammonia is added to peroxide to boost its performance?
Answer: I’ll defer this answer to a chemist.

17. Why are 4th generation nylon fibers damaged by peroxide when 5th generation fibers are not? Are Generations one through three just as susceptible?
Answer: Its my understanding that all generations of nylon are equally sensitive to peroxide. If other information is available, I’d welcome it.

18. What is the difference in raising the level of ammonia compared to raising the level (volume) of peroxide? How does either affect the pH?

Answer: I can only answer this through experience, especially in our dry cleaning plant. We have used 20 volume peroxide on some stains rather than 10 volume and ammonia. We would do this to avoid the alkaline pH that ammonia created. The formula worked as well, but took longer to react.

19. You have a spot on a cotton fringe that is not responding to a reducing agent, all you have on the truck is 40 Volume peroxide, how do you go about safely using it?
Answer: I hesitate to recommend the use of 40 Volume Peroxide on fringes because of the damage it will cause cotton fibers. If this were to be done, thorough rinsing would be critical.

20. If you need to dilute peroxide will distilled, soft or tap water make a difference?

Answer: The purer the water, the better.

21. Please explain your procedure for removing a 3 month old black coffee spill on a 5th generation nylon that has not responded to the home owners attempts?
Answer: Owner attempts??? That leaves the door open to a lot of variables. The simplest answer would be to clean it first, then treat the stain with a formulated stain remover that contains peroxide, or peroxide itself, then allow dwell time.

22. Which should be used first on a old ground in blueberry stain a reducing agent or an oxidizing agent?

Answer: Usually natural berry stains respond to reducing agents. Depending on what else has been done to the stain, and the type of textile that was stained, peroxide or peroxide based products may be used as well.

23. Why is Larry Cobb the only one selling plain liquid peroxide to his carpet cleaning customers?

Answer: I defer that question to Mr. Cobb.







Yeadon’s:

1. Would you agree the competent fabric/carpet identification knowledge is the number issue when using Peroxide?

I believe a chemistry degree and a comprehensive insurance policy would be 1&2.

2.What kinds of spots and stains can peroxide be used safely on?


As with all spotters follow the label directions. In other words do you want slightly blonde, Monroe blonde, or trashy Alabama trailer park blonde. Maybe even Dylan - Blonde on Blonde.

3.What won’t it work on? -


bald heads

4.Please explain the difference between reducing agents and oxidizing agents?

Reducers remove oxygen while oxidizers add oxygen.

5.What is the safest way to go about using peroxide on a specific stain?

Follow label directions.

6.What other surfaces can Peroxide (and Ammonia) be used on?


Follow label directions.

7.How would you recommend explaining about the use of peroxide to the homeowner?

Depends on how blonde they want to be.

8.What precautions should the technician take when dealing with peroxide?


This should be covered during classes for their chemistry degree.

9.What fibers could be harmed and in what way by the use of peroxide?


Most all of them depending on the circumstances.

10.How do you suggest using peroxide as a pre spray booster?


Follow label directions on major oxidizers.

11.Are there any limitations on just how much can be used as a booster?

Yes per label directions.

12.Please explain the differences between liquid peroxide, Sodium Percarbonate and Powdered Peroxide?


Sodium percarbonate when dissolved releases HP and sodium carbonate.

13. Please explain why Oxy Clean often times turns carpet yellow?


Most consumers overuse it. It has sodium hypochlorite and a pH of 12.4. Other than those 3 things it probably is a wonderful product.

14.Why do some manufacturers add fillers to their powdered “oxy” boosters?


It depends on the goal of the manufacturer and the end use design. That end use could be more profit.

15.Are there substitute oxidizing agents that are used in place of peroxide and why?


Yes but I am not a chemist. Sounds like a question for Shawn.

16.What exactly is happening when ammonia is added to peroxide to boost its performance?


It creates a reaction.

17.Why are 4th generation nylon fibers damaged by peroxide when 5th generation fibers are not? Are Generations one through three just as susceptible?


I did not know there was a difference in the effect.

18. What is the difference in raising the level of ammonia compared to raising the level (volume) of peroxide? How does either affect the pH?

Another Shawn question.

19. You have a spot on a cotton fringe that is not responding to a reducing agent, all you have on the truck is 40 Volume peroxide, how do you go about safely using it?


I wouldn't it will weaken the fringe. It is their spot and my hole.

20. If you need to dilute peroxide will distilled, soft or tap water make a difference?

Don't know.

21. Please explain your procedure for removing a 3 month old black coffee spill on a 5th generation nylon that has not responded to the home owners attempts?


Once the homeowner has attempted all bets are off. But I would use Stain Magic.

22. Which should be used first on a old ground in blueberry stain a reducing agent or an oxidizing agent?


Oxidizer.

23. Why is Larry Cobb the only one selling plain liquid peroxide to his carpet cleaning customers?


As Larry doesn't normally run his products by me before selling he would probably be a better person to ask.







Olsen’s:


1. Would you agree the competent fabric/carpet identification knowledge is the number issue when using Peroxide?

No

2. What kinds of spots and stains can peroxide be used safely on?

Ask Sallys what they have tested them it on and what claims they make and what they will stand behind.

3. What won’t it work on?

See Above.

4. Please explain the difference between reducing agents and oxidizing agents?

Reducers use Oxygen and Oxidizers release Oxygen


5. What is the safest way to go about using peroxide on a specific stain?


Again ask Sallys what they reccomed and what they will stand behind.

6. What other surfaces can Peroxide (and Ammonia) be used on?


See Above

7. How would you recommend explaining about the use of peroxide to the homeowner?


Don't!

8. What precautions should the technician take when dealing with peroxide?

Don't allow them to use it

9. What fibers could be harmed and in what way by the use of peroxide?

Potentially all of them thats why you use formulated product not beauty supply products
10. How do you suggest using peroxide as a pre spray booster?
I don't
11. Are there any limitations on just how much can be used as a booster?
Yes don't use it
12. Please explain the differences between liquid peroxide, Sodium Percarbonate and Powdered Peroxide?
Two are Powders one is a Liquid.

13. Please explain why Oxy Clean often times turns carpet yellow?

I don't sell Oxy Clean so I would have to refer you to the Makers of Oxy Clean

14. Why do some manufacturers add fillers to their powdered “oxy” boosters?


You would have to ask them

15. Are there substitute oxidizing agents that are used in place of peroxide and why?


Yes there are many. The spend untolds amounts of money in testing the fomulations to provide the best and safest product.

16. What exactly is happening when ammonia is added to peroxide to boost its performance?

I rely on the chemical professionals to know what they are doing so I don't use nor mix beauty supplies to clean carpet.

17. Why are 4th generation nylon fibers damaged by peroxide when 5th generation fibers are not? Are Generations one through three just as susceptible?


I have no Idea as I have not seen any data on testing peroxide on any generation carpet. I'll ask around though

18. What is the difference in raising the level of ammonia compared to raising the level (volume) of peroxide? How does either affect the pH?
I'm not a chemist and these are not Carpet Cleaning Products so I don't know.


19. You have a spot on a cotton fringe that is not responding to a reducing agent, all you have on the truck is 40 Volume peroxide, how do you go about safely using it?


You don't.

20. If you need to dilute peroxide will distilled, soft or tap water make a difference?


Yes


21. Please explain your procedure for removing a 3 month old black coffee spill on a 5th generation nylon that has not responded to the home owners attempts?



Rinse then apply Steam Way's Formula RB and cover. Come back the follwing day and Vacuum. If stain is still there then it is time to break out the repair tools.



22. Which should be used first on a old ground in blueberry stain a reducing agent or an oxidizing agent?


Oxidizer

23. Why is Larry Cobb the only one selling plain liquid peroxide to his carpet cleaning customers?


Because everyone else knows better.








Warrington’s

First a few remarks.
1) I am speaking for myself. I am not authorized to speak on behalf of my employer on this topic.
2) I do not advocate or recommend anyone mixing their own chemical combinations.
3) Concentrated hydrogen peroxide can remove color from carpet or upholstery and can weaken or otherwise damage many natural fabrics. I do not want to be liable for whatever someone does with these products. For that reason, I can not answer some questions completely.
4)
Why would anyone take on liability for another’s actions and not get paid for it? So, don’t base your cleaning decisions on anything you read here. This is not my advice or training course. Simply answering Mike’s questions as best I can.

1. Would you agree the competent fabric/carpet identification knowledge is the number issue when using Peroxide?

Certainly one of a few top issues. Applying peroxide to the wrong fibers, fabrics, or dye systems can cause problems. Cotton and other natural fabrics can be damaged by any type of bleach including peroxide. Some print dyes, ink dyes on fabrics and other delicate items can also be damaged.

Knowing when to use peroxide is another concern I have. It does not solve every problem. Cleaners tend to be impatient. They want to get out the big guns right away. There are things to try before you pull out the ammonia.

Liability from any make your own products has the potential to be a very big issue. 99 out of 100 cleaners will get away with this. The last one will end up buying a sofa, rig or worse paying someone’s medical bills.

2. What kinds of spots and stains can peroxide be used safely on?
I call a “spot” something added to the surface of the fiber. It can be felt. Almost any spot can be removed with physical or mechanical action rather than resorting to a more risky chemical reaction. Remove spots by scraping, blotting, rinsing or spot remover.
Stains are coloring agents that have been absorbed into the fiber. When they don’t come out with standard spot removal procedures, then I would go for peroxide if it is safe for the particular fiber I am cleaning. Mostly stains from natural sources also referred to as organic stains. This includes tea, coffee, wine, berries, mustard, wood and plant stains. Also many kinds of inks and markers.
Some things we may think of as natural may not really have natural color. Coffee can have artificial dye added, for example. Fruit juice may have added coloring.

3. What won’t it work on?

Older stains may have “oxidized” naturally over many months or years. As a rule of thumb, stains over 3 months old are consider “set” and may not respond to an oxidizer. I think this rule comes from the dry cleaning industry, not carpet cleaning. But the idea is the same.

More oxidizer – which is what peroxide is – won’t help. Usually not the best choice for artificial colors. But it will work sometimes.

As noted above, I would not use it on cotton except at very low strength. If I was unsure about any fabric or dye system, I would test a small area first. Wait to see the results.

4. Please explain the difference between reducing agents and oxidizing agents?


That answer could fill pages. I would refer those interested to the post by Shawn Forsythe that is in the Cleaner’s Magazine forum or to an article I wrote for Cleanfax early this year.

A short and direct answer - A cleaner can think of oxidizers as adding oxygen while a reducer removes oxygen from a molecule. A chemist would think of an oxidizer as REMOVING 2 electrons. Reducers add electrons.

The adding or removing of electrons is done to the portion of the molecule that effects color – the chromosphere.

This physical change to the molecule makes it reflect light differently. It has changed in a way that it no longer reflects visible light back to our eyes. The stain has not been removed. It may still be seen under UV light.

To illustrate this, think about the molecules in the atmosphere. They normally reflect blue light to our eyes, so we see the sky as blue. Red and orange light does not get reflected or bent. When we look directly at the sun, such as at sunset, we see those red and orange colors. If the molecules were a different average size, we would see a different color or we might not see them at all.

5. What is the safest way to go about using peroxide on a specific stain?


Practice on upholstery samples or carpet samples. Know what to expect before you go to work on a customer’s carpet. Test in an inconspicuous place first to see what result you will get. Try the weakest solution first. Be patient. Don’t rush right to a powerful solution. Remember that peroxide keeps working until it evaporates or is rinsed form the fabric. It may take a stain out and continue to be active for hours longer.

6. What other surfaces can Peroxide (and Ammonia) be used on?


I claim no knowledge or experience regarding using peroxide and ammonia on any surfaces other than carpet and some upholstery.

I think my mom used it on me for cuts and wounds, but I am not a medical doctor and will not give medical advice.

7. How would you recommend explaining about the use of peroxide to the homeowner?

Prefer to let the home-owner think of me as the expert and not explain what I am using. If they insist on asking question, I would tell them I am using an oxidizer. Really what do you tell the home-owner about any spot or stain remover you may use? “I know what to use on this stain, Maam.” They are more interested in will it work than what it is.

8. What precautions should the technician take when dealing with peroxide?

There are many possible problems. So no one should think this list is all inclusive. I don’t want to hear “Scott did not say I could not drink peroxide, so that must be safe.”

TEST, TEST, TEST. If you are going to damage something, let it be a small area.

Wear gloves. Do not get peroxide on your skin or in your eyes, especially the higher concentrations.

Highly concentrated peroxide and ammonia are used as explosives and rocket fuels. (Recall the federal building in Oklahoma?) Don’t carry a large volume of product or high concentrations. Hydrogen peroxide in the pint bottle from Kroger, Wal-Mart, Walgreens, etc. can be a useful spotting tool. 30 or 40 volume products that are formulated to remove color from hair (and definitely damage the hair they are applied to) are not safe for use by 99% of cleaners. That percentage may be a little low.

9. What fibers could be harmed and in what way by the use of peroxide?


As mentioned in some other responses, cotton is the most common fiber that could be damaged. It weakens the fiber. Fringes on cotton rugs might break off more easily. Cotton foundation yarns could break allowing woven rugs to deteriorate. Cotton upholstery get end up with holes instead of a stain.

Other natural fabrics could be harmed but I don’t know of any as sensitive as cotton.

Vegetal dyes may fade. The same goes for some prints and inks such as on Batic fabric.

This list is not all inclusive.

10. How do you suggest using peroxide as a pre spray booster?

The only thing I can suggest – without taking on liability I don’t want – is to use formulated products such as our Boost All or anyone elses oxidizer that is formulated for this purpose. These can be added to prespray to brighten carpet colors or whiten whites. Not too helpful on the neutral colors such as beige and gray.

Oxy boosters such as Boost All can also be used for tile and grout cleaning to help lighten stains in grout.

Powdered oxidizers (sodium percarbonate for example) are safer and more stable than liquid peroxide.

11. Are there any limitations on just how much can be used as a booster?


Absolutely there are limitations. I don’t know exactly what they are. Would depend on the individual situation.

12. Please explain the differences between liquid peroxide, Sodium Percarbonate and Powdered Peroxide?


They all release oxygen which is the key. Sodium percarbonate is a powder that releases oxygen when mixed with water. Hotter water releases the oxygen faster.

Powders can absorb moisture from the atmosphere, and will lose some performance (oxygen releasing ability) as this happens, but in general, powders will have a longer more stable shelf life than liquids.

Liquids will break down by heat, light and contact with air. That is why it is sold in dark bottles and tightly capped.

Just as liquids can come in different concentrations, powder products can come in different concentrations as well.

13. Please explain why Oxy Clean often times turns carpet yellow?

I don’t know there entire formula. It is a trade secret. My best guess would be that it contains optical brighteners which are fine for clothing but not suitable for carpet. There could also be some bleaching or fading happening.

14. Why do some manufacturers add fillers to their powdered “oxy” boosters?

First, the raw materials they purchase. Even the powder forms are not sold 100% pure. So if the raws have fillers, they will also be in the finished product. Having more concentrated oxidizers requires special permitting and an explosion proof building for storage and mixing.

That is one of the reasons we built our new explosion proof addition earlier this year.

Second, cost. The cost of powder oxidizers has sky-rocketed over the last year. Raw materials tripled in cost in many cases. Fillers would enable a formula to still be sold at a competitive price.

15. Are there substitute oxidizing agents that are used in place of peroxide and why?

You could think of peroxide as the substitute. The original widely used oxidizer was chlorine bleach (Laundry bleach). Peroxides were safer on fabrics, safer to breathe, safer in other ways as well.

In some situations, ozone has been used as a substitute oxidizer. I can’t think of any substitutes that are widely used.

16. What exactly is happening when ammonia is added to peroxide to boost its performance?


Ammonia is highly alkaline. Alkalinity increases the reaction that is liberating the oxygen.

The trick is to get the oxygen release to occur at the right time. While the product is in the bottle, you don’t want it to release oxygen. That is one reason to use stabilizers that slow down the oxygen release and give it a longer shelf life.

When you put it on your stain you do want the oxygen to start flowing. Many organic materials will trigger this reaction to start, but the ammonia, by raising the pH starts the reaction faster.

17. Why are 4th generation nylon fibers damaged by peroxide when 5th generation fibers are not? Are Generations one through three just as susceptible?


I don’t necessarily agree with this statement the one generation is damaged more or less than others. I’d have to do some research. I don’t think you would find any 1st, 2nd or 3rd generation nylon around. It would all be at 35 years or older.

18. What is the difference in raising the level of ammonia compared to raising the level (volume) of peroxide? How does either affect the pH?

The ammonia triggers the release of oxygen. You need only 5 to 10% of the amount of ammonia compared to the amount of hydrogen peroxide. It is the key that starts the car. Once the reaction is happening (the car is running) there is no need for more ammonia. More ammonia will raise the pH but that is about all it does.

The volume rating of peroxide tells how much oxygen will be released. The reaction will continue until all the oxygen has been liberated. If we continue the car illustration, it will keep working as long as there is any gas in the tank. Depending on the situation, this could be hours.

19. You have a spot on a cotton fringe that is not responding to a reducing agent, all you have on the truck is 40 Volume peroxide, how do you go about safely using it?

Cotton fringes are not meant to be pure white. The natural color is off-white. I would not bleach them with any strength of straight peroxide.

Here is the formula I suggest
1 Gallon of hot water
1 ounce of Boost All oxidizer
2 ounces of Buff All to reduce the alkalinity and slow the reaction
4 Ounces of Fabric Shampoo

Stir up and use the foam with a horsehair brush to work on the fringe.

20. If you need to dilute peroxide will distilled, soft or tap water make a difference?

If the mix was going to be stored for some time, any impurities in tap water even softened water would destabilize the peroxide causing it to slowly release oxygen and have a shorter shelf life.

If you were mixing it just when ready to use, a few impurities would not matter much. That is when you want it to be releasing the oxygen.

21. Please explain your procedure for removing a 3 month old black coffee spill on a 5th generation nylon that has not responded to the home owners attempts?

A formulated product that includes a blend of surfactants will work better to wet and penetrate the fiber carrying the peroxide to its intended target. I would not expect straight peroxide product to work.

I would rinse the carpet to remove and previous cleaning chemicals. Allow the carpet to dry or force dry with an air mover. Apply StainZONE to dry carpet allows it to penetrate as deeply as the staining material did. If the carpet is damp, the water it has absorbed dilutes the product and keeps the stain remover form getting al the way into the fiber because it is filled with water.

22. Which should be used first on a old ground in blueberry stain a reducing agent or an oxidizing agent?

I have heard arguments stating both sides of this. I can see the points of both. Since this stain is older, it may have considerably oxidized on its own. This may mean it is set and nothing will remove it. However, I would start with an oxidizer.

If this did not work, rinse, dry and try the reducer.

There are a significant number of stains that would respond to either a reducer or an oxidizer. Both approaches change the length of the molecule that is responsible for the color.

23. Why is Larry Cobb the only one selling plain liquid peroxide to his carpet cleaning customers?

Since I am not speaking for my own company, I could in no way explain why any other manufacturer does what they do. My suspect that they don’t want to be liable for what some cleaners might do with the peroxide.

For Larry, I guess he found a market he could serve and make a profit doing it.







Forsythe

Preface by Shawn Forsythe. I hope my answers be taken only as a part of the overall answers that will be accumulated from all the participants who were asked to answer. As such, I think each one of us are going to have strong and helpful points to be made on certain questions, while other will have little or no comment. Overall, what everyone gleans from each participant should create something of overall value.


1. Would you agree the competent fabric/carpet identification knowledge is the number issue when using Hydrogen Peroxide?

I think there are a number of paramount considerations, of which fiber ID is certainly a concern. Equally important is that the user knows the safety and preparation rules for handling hazardous materials. I still strongly favor a prepared product

like Stain Zone Or Stain Magic, as the user has not to worry so much about the product liability issues, correct use instructions, unpredictable results, all of which can easily wipe out the paltry lifetime savings by using concentrated Hydrogen Peroxide.


2. What kinds of spots and stains can peroxide be used safely on?


If by "safely", you mean that the procedure will not alter the stain element so as to make it more difficult to remove if the procedure is not sucessful, then I would have to say that it is safe on nearly all stains. If however your concern is the fiber and not the stain, then you would be best not to use hydrogen peroxide combined with an alkaline accelerant where the fiber or fiber dye is sensitive to alklinity. This is most oftenthe case with natural fibers such as wool or silk. Cotton is a fiber where the use of hydrogen peroxide and a accelerant shpuld be tested in an obscure area for dye stability. As well, too high a concentration will degrade the cotton fiber itself.


3. What won’t it work on?

It is unlikely to achieve practical correction of discoloration from certain types of artificial dyes that are better “de-colored” through chemical reaction of a reducing agent. As well, many hair dyes and certain types of inks will not respond to an oxidizer at concentrations safe for the underlying fiber dyes. The short paper I wrote on Oxidizers and Reducers which is present in the Cleaners Magazine area of MikeysBoard explains in some detail the “what’s and Why’s” of Oxidizer and reducer usage.



4. Please explain the difference between reducing agents and oxidizing agents?


Simply put, oxidizers add oxygen, while reducers remove oxygen from compounds they might chemically react with. In reality though, the mechanisms for which other possible reactions by which oxidizers and reducers function van be expanded to include: and oxidizer is any substance that gains electrons in a redox chemical reaction. Whereas a reducer donates electrons in a chemical reaction. However to define just how a redox reaction will "remove" a stain, and how either a reducer works versus an oxidizer requires an expanded explanation.

(excerpt from the paper presentation in the Cleaners Magazine of MikeysBoard)
Oxidizing bleaches like hydrogen peroxide break the molecules at the double bond of a chromophore. This results in either a shorter molecule that does not absorb visible light, or a molecule whose chromophore is either shorter or non-existent. A shorter chromophore will absorb light of a shorter wavelength than visible light (such as ultraviolet light), and so does not appear colored.
Reducing bleaches such as sodium bisulfite or sulfur dioxide, convert the double bonds in the chromophore into single bonds, eliminating its ability to absorb visible light. Sometimes the reaction is reversible, where oxygen in the air reacts with the molecule to repair the chromophore, and the stain returns. In addition to chemicals, energy can disrupt chemical bonds to bleach out color. For example, the high-energy photons in sunlight (e.g., ultraviolet rays) can disrupt the bonds in chromophores to decolorize them.
Several molecular structures and physical phenomena give rise to color or darkening on a fiber. Molecular structures containing conjugated centers of unsaturation (double bonds) such as phenols and carbonyls all cause vibration of bonds by light wavelengths, shifting absorption of light from the invisible or colorless ultraviolet range to the visible light range.

By breaking up the conjugated system, colored compounds become colorless, i.e. stains become invisible. Breaking, or saturating the double bonds can accomplish this. The carbonyl groups can be reduced to alcohols, or oxidized to carboxylic acids, both colorless compounds.

5. What is the safest way to go about using peroxide on a specific stain?

The absolute safest means is to use a prepared product like StainZone or Stain Magic.


6. What other surfaces can Peroxide (and Ammonia) be used on?


I'll leave this question to my esteemed colleagues who might interpret this question correctly. Or you could ask Sally. J


7. How would you recommend explaining about the use of peroxide to the homeowner?


I would not explain any further than to indicate that it is a two part oxidizing stain remover for professional use only. I hope I am interpreting this vague question correctly.

8. What precautions should the technician take when dealing with peroxide?

1. Carry an MSDs for the products the technician will be using. 2. Make absolutely certain that reactants are kept separate and in their original containers while transporting or storing. 3. That a published set of use instructions be kept at all times within proximity to all chemicals being stored, used or transported. 4.Try to keep the products out of heat and light to preserve the stability of the Hydrogen Peroxide. 5. Make sure that the cap used for the Hydrogen Peroxide is of the vented type. 6. Do not carry concentrated Hydrogen Peroxide in your vehicle for “on the job” dilution.

9. What fibers could be harmed and in what way by the use of peroxide?

Most natural fibers are degraded at least somewhat by the use of an oxidizer such as Hydrogen Peroxide. But the chief concern is the stability and the possibility of bleaching of the dyes on natural fibers.

10. How do you suggest using peroxide as a pre spray booster?

I'll defer this question to those who have actually participated in, and condoned the practice.

11. Are there any limitations on just how much can be used as a booster?

Absolutely. The oxidizing strength of Hydrogen Peroxide is vastly increased with concentration, and dye stability for near any fiber is going to have a limitation.

12. Please explain the differences between liquid peroxide, Sodium Percarbonate and Powdered Peroxide?

Liquid Peroxide simply refers to a water (aqueous) diluted form of Hydrogen Peroxide. The term "powdered Peroxide" is a general term that has been used to describe Sodium Percarbonate. Sodium Percarbonate is Sodium Carbonate (Soda Ash), which has been sprayed with concentrated Hydrogen Peroxide, and allowed to dry. The Hydrogen Peroxide is loosely bonded to the Sodium Carbonate molecule. Dissolved in water, it releases H2O2 and soda ash (sodium carbonate).


13. Please explain why Oxy Clean often times turns carpet yellow?

Oxyclean comes in various forms, from mixtures of Sodium Percarbonate to some formulations, which actually use Chlorine Bleach. As all forms of OxyClean are consumer products not designed for professional carpet cleaning, I've not used the product contrary to its intended purpose to experience the yellowing anomaly and know which particular formulation is involved.

14. Why do some manufacturers add fillers to their powdered “oxy” boosters?

Quite a number of booster type products used to use the most concentrated form of Sodium Percarbonate available. However, some years ago DOT (The US Department of Transportation), made formal the classification of Sodium Percarbonate to be listed as a hazardous material, Oxidizer. They also set the parameters of the attributes of the product which made it classified as such. Since the cost to ship ordinary use quantities via a carrier such as UPS is at a premium, as hazardous materials require a surcharge, steps were taken to attenuate the product to lessen the net cost to the user. By adding a certain amount of pure soda ash, the product could be made to ship without a hazmat designation. Yes, it did mean the user would have to use more product, but the overall coat to the end user was actually less than paying the surcharge on pure percarbonate.

BTW, when packaged in an inner packaging of less than 1 kilogram (2.2 lbs), the product is exempt from the hazmat declaration. The only reason I can figure why manufacturers do not take advantage of this is to avoid having two products with the same name having differing use instructions depending on the size of container, especially when the 2.2 lb jar would be rather small purchased quantity.

15. Are there substitute oxidizing agents that are used in place of peroxide and why?

Sodium Percarbonate can't be used in many formulations because many typical cleaning product components will cause the loosely bonded hydrogen peroxide to dissociate (be released in the packaging). Other oxidizers sometimes found to be suitable and more stable are used, such as Sodium Perborate. Sodium Perborate is also more functional in lower pH levels. Heat is the key in using Perborate, as it releases little oxygen, even when mixed, at below 60 degrees centigrade.

16. What exactly is happening when ammonia is added to peroxide to boost its performance?


Simply the alkalinity of the Ammonium Hydroxide causes the hydrogen peroxide to undergo rapid decomposition, releasing the oxygen which is free to oxidize stain elements. Without the Ammonia, the hydrogen peroxide would take too much time than is practical unless you were to use higher concentrations (unsafe and unpredictable) of Hydrogen Peroxide.


17. Why are 4th generation nylon fibers damaged by peroxide when 5th generation fibers are not? Are Generations one through three just as susceptible?


I’ll leave this one for Jim Smith to detail.

18. What is the difference in raising the level of ammonia compared to raising the level (volume) of peroxide? How does either affect the pH?

The pH of the Ammonia is not the only factor that governs the accelerating action of its addition. The Ammonia also requires the presence of a metal ion. Fortunately, tap water usually mixed with the ammonia and even the staining element itself contains enough to kick off the reaction. The real power however is the hydrogen peroxide itself, and adding more of the hydrogen peroxide is going to have a much greater effect than raising the Ammonia level more than necessary. However, if the amount of ammonia is insufficient, for the amount of Hydrogen Peroxide, then the staining element, heat, and light are acting as somewhat uncontrolled factors in the rate of decomposition, therefore with insufficient ammonia and a strong solution of Hydrogen peroxide, the results are unpredictable. When you have unpredictability, you run the real risk of pulling dye color.
As more and more ammonia is added, the pH of the resulting mixture will reach an equivalent pH of 11.63 at the point where the maximal effect of the ammonia acceleration of the H202 degradation is reached. Ammonia itself has a potential pH of 13.6, and raising it beyond the 11.63 point will have no benefit.



19. You have a spot on a cotton fringe that is not responding to a reducing agent, all you have on the truck is 40 Volume peroxide, how do you go about safely using it?

I'll leave that up to my esteemed colleagues who have done so.

20. If you need to dilute peroxide will distilled, soft or tap water make a difference?


This is one of the number one reasons why some would conclude that using concentrated Hydrogen Peroxide is not suitable for the carpet cleaner. The amount of stabilizer that is added to the particular mixture (concentration) of hydrogen peroxide is specific to that strength you purchased. As such, the more concentrated you start with, the more unstable it is and the shorten the shelf life when diluted nearer and nearer to actual use strength. And you don't want to be carrying large quantities of concentrated Hydrogen Peroxide in your vehicle. Do not dilute any product beyond what is going to be transported and used that day, on your truck. And then, only use distilled water. If you are going to be using the product within a few minutes to a couple of hours, most tap water will not seriously degrade the product before use.

21. Please explain your procedure for removing a 3 month old black coffee spill on a 5th generation nylon that has not responded to the home owners attempts?

The instructions on a bottle of Stain Zone and/or Stain Magic are sufficient.

22. Which should be used first on a old ground in blueberry stain a reducing agent or an oxidizing agent?

Oxidizer.

23. Why is Larry Cobb the only one selling plain liquid peroxide to his carpet cleaning customers?

I know little about the particular strength that Larry sells, ands whether it causes the problems described in the answer to question #20.
 

vincent

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Most intersting thread I've read here.

Answer this Shawn,Do not carry concentrated Hydrogen Peroxide in your vehicle for “on the job” dilution.
 
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Vincent,

To explain. Most of the discussion has centered on 40 volume Hydrogen peroxide. Anything 30 volume or greater is a classified hazardous material, requiring placarding, bill of lading, labeling and transport in a Packaging group III outer container for any significant quantity. The reason is, it's just plain hazardous. Furthermore, the transporter (you), have to have adequate hazmat training and licensing to deal with. Chances are, you will also have quite a bit of incompatible materials to consider with such product on board.

Also, the effects of a hot van or truck are going to have a real detrimental effect on your product. Don't expect it to last long. In the concentrated form, you are putting all your eggs in one basket, so to speak.

Keep your stash in your shop, and only take in ready to use dilution what you expect to use.
 

Rescue

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Those of you that are carrying 20/30/40 vol gallons or pints in your truck please answer. It seems like these guys don't fell comfortable answering all the questions with out refering them. I just want to know the risk to watch out for when carrying 40 vol in your truck or van, (ie heat is one that comes to mind along with a vented cap????????)
 

Chads

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I dont think you need to have a placard signs to carry peroxide on your truck that would be like any janitorial service that carried bleach would too . What I do know is that if your carrying any hazardous product that weighs over a 1000 pounds then you have to be placard. But you always have to carry msds sheets on hazardous products on your truck.
 
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Mikey P

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I would be much more concerned with the average Carpet Cleaner's colon contents in event of a van roll over.








I dont think the make a portable placard big enough to cover Danny's cargo.
 

Able 1

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I love the vol. 40!!! This week alone it got out some stains for some repeat business that I knew were there last time, but my spotting attempts did not work. Last time I treated the coffee stain with tannin and coffee remover and nothing.

Fels naptha, and vol. 40 for me!!!!!
 

Able 1

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This is labled for the normal consumer so they all have placard sign when they pull away from Sally's too? I don't know about all the rest of you i'm just picking it up for the wife! 8)
 

Art Kelley

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Thanks to all who responded to the questions sharing your knowledge and misgivings. It is appropriate to understand the precautions in the use and handling of, as Shaun pointed out, hazardous materials.

King Krimson summed it up best:

Knowledge is a deadly friend
When no one sets the rules.
The fate of all mankind I see
Is in the hands of fools.

Confusion will be my epitaph.
As I crawl a cracked and broken path
If we make it we can all sit back
and laugh.
But I fear tomorrow I'll be crying,
Yes I fear tomorrow I'll be crying.
 

gasaxe

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Mikey P said:
I would be much more concerned with the average Carpet Cleaner's colon contents in event of a van roll over.








I dont think the make a portable placard big enough to cover Danny's cargo.




glad i didnt have a mouth full of liquid.....i woulda spit it all over the computer.lol That is some funny stuff.
 
G

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I think the key is knowledge (and common sense,which I think a ton of people think ,is a form of currency)

Kevin
 
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Able 1 said:
This is labled for the normal consumer so they all have placard sign when they pull away from Sally's too? I don't know about all the rest of you i'm just picking it up for the wife! 8)

Chads is right about the placarding requirement. And in quantities less than 1 gallon, for H2O2 8-20%, and <1 liter above 20% to 40%, labeling is exempted. However, labeling requirements on ORMD above limited quantities change, as per the intended purpose. Otherwise, all products that carry ORMD exemptions, would always have those exemptions regardless of intended application.

Consumer Commodity (exemption from certain labeling requirements)
A material that is packaged or distributed in a form intended or suitable for sale through retail sales agencies. The material is for use by individuals for personal care or household use. This term also includes drugs and medicines.
(49 CFR 171.8)

"I clean carpet, but I also bleach my hair occasionally while on the road, so that's why I carry a gallon of 40 vol hydrogen peroxide with me while cleaning carpet. Honest, its for my personal care and household use."


Fortunate for most everyone is the general lack of enforcement of regulations. That being the case, ignorance is indeed bliss. <shrug>
 

John Olson

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Shawn Forsythe said:
[quote="Larry B":2n0anbtz]Olson wins.
Olson stuck to his guns. I respect that. In fact I have more respect for John on this thread, than my own self respect for selling out. :oops:[/quote:2n0anbtz]

Thanks Shawn, but I want you to know I learned something from you replies so thanks :)

Oh and Billy was funnier then I was :lol:
 

Rex Tyus

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Respectfully, I didn't find it that funny. I would have had more respect if you two would have said something like "I decline to answer due to possible liability and lost sales. I will not promote the use of an over the counter product not industry specific." than to be so smug. Cleaners get asked stupid questions everyday from home owners. It is HOW we answer them that determines if we get them as a customer.
 

John Olson

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I'm sorry Rex. I keep forgetting that I am held to a different standard then "one of the guys"

I made my point clear BEFORE mike sent this and then he tried to "call us out" by posting he sent us this list of "questions" and expected and answer. I didn't appreciate being put into that position but since he did and said just answer the damn thing how you want, so I did.
 

Rex Tyus

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It is cool with me John. I don't mean to sound bitchy. I have been around long enough to know the underlying humor. For the newer guys that don't know what givers to the industry you and Yeadon are it could come across wrong is what I should have said.
 

billyeadon

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Rex Tyus said:
[quote="John Olson":2bt7s82n]
Oh and Billy was funnier then I was :lol:

Respectfully, I didn't find it that funny. I would have had more respect if you two would have said something like "I decline to answer due to possible liability and lost sales. I will not promote the use of an over the counter product not industry specific." than to be so smug. Cleaners get asked stupid questions everyday from home owners. It is HOW we answer them that determines if we get them as a customer.[/quote:2bt7s82n]


Rex,

My apologies. I had a choice of not responding, like John, or doing it somewhat tongue in cheek. As we know humor without voice tone or body language leaves us with just 7% of the message. I find smiley icons a waste. I think they tell the recipient they aren't bright enough to get the intent.

I understand that many cleaners may use H202 and never have a problem but I cannot condone it myself. I have never used it myself so I don't feel competent to answer questions on its use.

I feel that if we have difficult questions on chemistry it is hard to beat what Shawn has to say.
Thanks for your comments. As instructors we learn more from constructive criticism than from the usual 10's on our reviews.
 

Rex Tyus

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billyeadon said:
As we know humor without voice tone or body language leaves us with just 7% of the message.

I agree. That is kind of what I was getting at. Can you believe some people on here think I am an asshole? :shock: Like I said I don't want to sound bitchy. I just thought I would add a note of caution because of the perception issue. I still think you guys rock.
 

Larry Cobb

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Jim;

I like your answer to use the reducing agent on the blueberry stain (Question #22).

I agree with you completely, even though it differs from the approach taught by CTI that suggests an oxidizer for removal (organic stains).

I'm glad somebody else thinks independently from the crowd.

I was expecting a lot more questions, about the answers.

Larry
 

Jim Pemberton

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Thanks Larry.

My experience comes from years in working in a dry cleaning plant, which gives a bit of a different perspective. That or its the effect of breathing too much perchloroethylene in my formative years!

Thanks to all of you for expanding my knowledge base as an instructor.
 

Larry Cobb

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Jim;

Dry cleaners were probably the last true "spot removal specialists".

Their spotting procedures were the basis for many of our current spotting procedures.

One day at the steam table was like a month of carpet spotting experience.

Larry Cobb
 

hogjowl

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My initial reaction to Olsen's and Bill's posts was negative ... especially Olsen's. I'm glad I read further and saw their explanations.

It probably WOULD have been better if you two had just declined to participate because I bet there are a few out there that think you two are complete assholes for the way you answered.

Not me of course ...
 

tmdry

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If i understand this correctly Sodium Percarbonate is hydrogen peroxide that is sprayed onto Soda Ash than dried up which comes in Powered form. I've noticed that some urine stain removal products are made of this type of chemical, where once you mix hot water to it will start "activating" itself vary fast unlike Hydrogen Peroxide will. The foaming reaction is almost instant, and tends to clog pump sprayers really bad. This has been my experience with the Powered vs liquid. I had a client that had several dog urine stains where i used a product with Sodium Percarbonate on these stains, and after checking the stains a few weeks after the cleaning job, instead of the yellow stain being there there was several white bleach marks. I did qualify homeowner and asked if they used oxyclean or any type of the shelf products and they said they did not.

Can Sodium Percarbonate also leave a white bleach like mark?
 

Larry Cobb

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Tmdry;

12. Please explain the differences between liquid peroxide, Sodium Percarbonate and Powdered Peroxide?
A. Liquid Peroxide - stable at any strength between 3% and 35% (unstable @ higher percentages).
Sodium Percarbonate - if full strength, is equivalent to 27.5% Hydrogen Peroxide (90 Volume).

The Percarbonate is easily strong enough to remove the color.

Larry
 

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