Has ATP testing been misrepresented in order to sell VLM equipment?

Mikey P

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A certain manufacturer of low moisture cleaning equipment and chemicals has been touting on MB about how “his” method provides a more sanitized carpet in comparison to a carpet cleaned by Hot Water Extraction.. Those with any common sense knew that this testing method *was not being used correctly. As fate would have it, real ...
The post Has ATP testing been misrepresented in order to sell VLM equipment? appeared first on MikeysBoard.com !


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John G

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First off your whole premise is wrong, who said more sanitized, we said we removed a larger percentage of contaminants than did HWE.
I see you chose to attack the messenger and try to sway the message again, nothing new about that. Good try Mikey..
I have stated and all of our information on ATP testing has been quantitative, had you actually read the article you would have notice:
(Adenosine Triphosphate) as a means for comparing the effectiveness of different disinfectants is something that I cannot leave unaddressed.
We have never been concerned with comparing disinfectants, mainly because ATP primarily determines the amount of biologicals in the carpet fiber and makes no judgement on living or dead, it is a test of %'s of removal.
As she wrote in the article you included, the : The luminescence is expressed in "relative light units" (RLU), providing a quantitative measurement., it is important to reiterate that ATP measurements are non-specific meaning that they do not and cannot distinguish between microbial ATP and that from other sources such as food residues and mammalian cells. Further, ATP tests are unable to distinguish between viable and non-viable organisms as both living and recently killed organisms "spill" ATP onto surfaces.
So NASA in its protocols does not use this test to ascertain living or dead Biologicals, only amount of, hence the test is a perfect scientific test for % of removal, is what we have tested and proclaimed. Notice this is set up by BEM and NASA we use the machine the protocols were set for.

View attachment 4309View attachment 4310This is but a small sampling of our data, however it does show the consistency in the finding.
All your post did was show you lack of understanding of the tests, and in your eagerness to disprove what you don't like to hear, you just basically proved our whole point.

Paul Craig interview was just further evidence of how we tested and what convinced a Vortex guy to go to a Trinity, Watch HERE

 
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hogjowl

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You should be spending all this time and energy selling the method masters and standards setters in the IICRC and the major chemical mfgs and distributors. It's not until you sell those in the positions of power that you will gain wholesale industry respect.

When we, the cleaners, start reading findings in the trade magazines that support your claims, then we'll sit up and take notice.

Or, has this already been attempted?
 

Mikey P

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Those same scientists say that we evolved from Jimmy.


Who are you going to belive John?


One micro fiber pad holding more soil than 35 gallons of muddy water.

you..YOU are going to hell Guerkink.
 
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Mardie

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I bought the equipment and ATP testing result had nothing to do with my purchase decision. ATP testing results for carpet cleaning is so new that the thousands of VLM owners that have had this equipment for years made there purchase long before ATP testing results came out. People purchase equipment based on performance and not a results testing sheet. So I think the title of this thread is mute.
 
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handdi

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i want to see this first hand.
i bought a shaker 2 yrs ago tried it on a job
it has been in the garage ever since.
I would really like for some one come to south carolina and show me how this is better then hwe.
it is all about production times is it not.
How do ya get these filtration lines out using vlm?
where does the dog pee go?
So when i get home at nite i get to wash all the pads from the day also what a pain this would be also.
I'm open to a lot of ideas but vlm come on and yes we have cimexs also
very interesting concept 5 grand to get set up but i really do care what my customers think of us and the service we provide,

Like i said i would love for someone come and show me how this is better.
Any takers? ill buy lunch and supper
 
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John G

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Tried it on a job and its been in the garage since.. wow, ONE TRY and now, someone please come here and give me a free education.. seriously?
 

GCCLee

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Do ya buff a car before washing it or after?


I forgot


Sent from da parking garage of dee detention center
 

John G

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You like to comment Lee, but do you know what you are talking about?

Based on what?
 

John G

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You know, your comments of a pad holding so much shows without a shadow of a doubt that you don't even understand the chemistry or technology that is being used,nor do you want to.
Opinions, Opinions, Opinions, just like buttholes, everyone has one, truth be damned.
 

Jimmy L

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"Jimmy" is not some stoopit carpet cleaner, he tawks to Stephen Hawkings on skype every week.

I had one of dos OP machines I finally found a sucker to buy it from me........................he lives in Lincoln.

Only thing it was good for was to hang hoses on in my garage.
 

Mikey P

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I own all sorts of micro fiber pads. Most are warn out.
I own all sorts of encapsulation juices. Most are almost empty.

And you are full of shit Guerkink.


All the Trinity does is grind the dirt to the bottom wuicker.



Better stock up on SPF 666.
 

millbiller01

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Is there a better way, we as cleaners can actually test for levels of cleanliness on location? The ATP test is the only one I am familiar with, but if there are others, I'm all ears.
 

Mikey P

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Sure. Look in your filter basket or waste tank.

Or better yet, run a wand over that freshly ground in area.


Do you honestly feel a Q tip rubbed on the surface is gong to tell you what's deep down?


I'm in shock and awe John can find you people.
 
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You like to comment Lee, but do you know what you are talking about?

Based on what?
Yes, got A's in Chemistry, Physics, Biology in college. Since then have always continued to learn.

If you read the article you know that common cleaning chemicals can "blind" the ATP test, yielding false negatives. Your testing is a proof of that.

IF IT WERE "CLEAN", a followup pass by a any HWE system would remove little or nothing. You fear that disclosure and try to avoid it at all costs.
 

Desk Jockey

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Interesting data but why are we trusting carpet cleaners for taking this data and not a independent testing lab?

ATP testing has been adopted by CIRI (Cleaning Industry Research Institute) for the new K-12 Standard for levels of cleanliness. So yes I believe ATP testing does have some validity and can be very helpful BUT banking everything on it?

I don't know, biofilms can throw your readings way off. Lots of variables can skew testing, age of pens, length of time out of refrigeration, length of time before pen is cracked and put into luminometer, cross contamination in handling of the swab, many things
 
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GCCLee

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You like to comment Lee, but do you know what you are talking about?

Based on what?


I built and tested the windows for Trump towers and part of JFK Airport : ) does that count?




If not I guess I can wait a few more posts before giving it another shot.
 

GCCLee

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Yes, got A's in Chemistry, Physics, Biology in college. Since then have always continued to learn.

If you read the article you know that common cleaning chemicals can "blind" the ATP test, yielding false negatives. Your testing is a proof of that.

IF IT WERE "CLEAN", a followup pass by a any HWE system would remove little or nothing. You fear that disclosure and try to avoid it at all costs.

Umm, Mr Lee


I thinks Tha Calgon man wuz talkin to me




But that was an Awesome Back hand shot, I heard it in TN : )
 

Willy P

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Yes, got A's in Chemistry, Physics, Biology in college. Since then have always continued to learn.

If you read the article you know that common cleaning chemicals can "blind" the ATP test, yielding false negatives. Your testing is a proof of that.

IF IT WERE "CLEAN", a followup pass by a any HWE system would remove little or nothing. You fear that disclosure and try to avoid it at all costs.


But are you NASA material like Brother John?
 

millbiller01

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By Mikey
Sure. Look in your filter basket or waste tank.

Or better yet, run a wand over that freshly ground in area.
Do you honestly feel a Q tip rubbed on the surface is gong to tell you what's deep down?
I'm in shock and awe John can find you people

You got me sir, I obviously was not clear in my questioning. While Mr. Chavez has pointed out that there can be issues when using ATP testing, which are good points.
What I was asking was, is there a better way to test in the field what level of clean we are leaving behind, scientifically. Maybe there is not one, I am not sure, and I
coincide there may be issues with ATP testing. But if all I am left with is ATP, and looking at a filter bag, not too difficult which one I would choose.

The filter bag test, while it may be impressive to some, different size bags could be misleading. Some peoples bags may be even bigger than yours Mike.


 

Bjorn

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so it comes down to you have to be a rocket scientist errrrrrrrrr space cadet to vlm carpets?
 

Desk Jockey

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So is the carpet being re-cleaned if the ATP test is showing higher than the 300 count?

Is the point that the cleaner is going to make a claim that the carpet will not be above 300 on ATP testing?
 

GCCLee

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You got me sir, I obviously was not clear in my questioning. While Mr. Chavez has pointed out that there can be issues when using ATP testing, which are good points.
What I was asking was, is there a better way to test in the field what level of clean we are leaving behind, scientifically. Maybe there is not one, I am not sure, and I
coincide there may be issues with ATP testing. But if all I am left with is ATP, and looking at a filter bag, not too difficult which one I would choose.

The filter bag test, while it may be impressive to some, different size bags could be misleading. Some peoples bags may be even bigger than yours Mike.




Visually,

Id say a sandwich bag'll hold more than a 20" pad
 

Mikey P

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I'm not aware of any real and valued testing (other than Tony Wheelwright's boy scout weight's and measure pocket pal) that has the ability to take two identically soiled chunks of carpet and tell you which one weights less after cleaning.


Can't trust the carpet mills to recommend a process, can trust the associations/foundations or anybody else (john included) to be honest about it



Just use common sense and have an arsenal of equipment on hand to do the best job possible.



and in that arsenal you damn well better have a good extractor, portable or truckmount, to deal with carpets with bodily fluid in them.
 

Jimmy L

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Let's not all pile on John here..........there are other VLM KLOWNS who sell encrapulation suds here too that make outragious claims too.
 

Mikey P

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Lets discuss using religion to sell products and services..

I may go see this Noah movie tonight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qmj5mhDwJQ


In the trailer Noah's father (or sage?,mentor? looks like Anthony Hopkins so he must be right) says when man has become so corrupt that God will wash the earth of his sins (or something to that effect) (notice God does not threaten to run a micro fiber pad over the planet, but rather lots of water), my question is, at that point in time in man's history, what were we doing that was so corrupt to anger God to this extent? Surely we have done far worse in the last 100 years. Is there another flood coming?

Who here knows the story well enough to explain this to me.




I hate to ask my believer wife this kind of stuff as it's just so silly, it's hard not to laugh.


I honestly fear for Guerkink that his god and devil are waiting for him for selling these lies to morons.
 
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