How confident are you in your carpet protector?

[ruff]

Thank you Scott. Good job. I think you may have managed to confuse us even more

Jokes aside, I think Interlink has a problem communicating clearly with the fold, as to what works for what. Trust me on this one: If people get confused, they just won't buy it. Or go with the slick sales person (no names mentioned) that may offer simplicity or worse: Telling them what they want to hear, which is not necessarily what's right. See some previous posts. It may hurt your sales.

I very much prefer to make educated (knowledge based) decisions, which in my opinion you are not providing in a clear and easy to understand manner. This is meant as feedback to help you and not a put down.

So:

1. Advanced with Teflon is best for solution (not acid) dyed carpet as it does not contain acid dye blockers which are not needed. I assume it is cheaper alternative to Maxim advanced but for those carpets will offer the same protection.
   
2. Advanced with Teflon can also be used for upholstery that does not need acid dye resistance. It is cheaper than Maxim for Upholstery. If used on upholstery it will leave it more wet. But will offer the same protection?
   
3. Maxim Advanced for upholstery works better for natural fiber. Is it just about faster drying and the flexible polymer, or is there more to it? However, when used on upholstery, will it give any better protection than Maxim Advanced?
   
4. Maxim Advanced for Wool is the same as Maxim Advanced, only more concentrated? Can we carry only Maxim advanced and dilute it when applying to Nylon? Can you use the same logic and also apply to upholstery that does not require as fast drying?

Maybe you can create a simple chart.

 

[J Scott W]

Thank you Scott. Good job. I think you may have managed to confuse us even more

Jokes aside, I think Interlink has a problem communicating clearly with the fold, as to what works for what. Trust me on this one: If people get confused, they just won't buy it. Or go with the slick sales person (no names mentioned) that may offer simplicity or worse: Telling them what they want to hear, which is not necessarily what's right. See some previous posts. It may hurt your sales.

I very much prefer to make educated (knowledge based) decisions, which in my opinion you are not providing in a clear and easy to understand manner. This is meant as feedback to help you and not a put down.

So:

1. Advanced with Teflon is best for solution (not acid) dyed carpet as it does not contain acid dye blockers which are not needed. I assume it is cheaper alternative to Maxim advanced but for those carpets will offer the same protection.
   
2. Advanced with Teflon can also be used for upholstery that does not need acid dye resistance. It is cheaper than Maxim for Upholstery. If used on upholstery it will leave it more wet. But will offer the same protection?
   
3. Maxim Advanced for upholstery works better for natural fiber. Is it just about faster drying and the flexible polymer, or is there more to it? However, when used on upholstery, will it give any better protection than Maxim Advanced?
   
4. Maxim Advanced for Wool is the same as Maxim Advanced, only more concentrated? Can we carry only Maxim advanced and dilute it when applying to Nylon? Can you use the same logic and also apply to upholstery that does not require as fast drying?

There are certainly a lot more details and variables but I won't get into them (at least not too deeply) to avoid the confusion.

Here are answers to your questions:

1. Advanced with Teflon is best for solution (not acid) dyed carpet as it does not contain acid dye blockers which are not needed. I assume it is cheaper alternative to Maxim advanced but for those carpets will offer the same protection.

Generally accurate. However even some solution dyed carpet has acid dye sites. Teflon Advanced is also good on dispersed dyed carpet.
I prefer to think of applying Advanced with Teflon when protection against oil is the main desired quality.

2. Advanced with Teflon can also be used for upholstery that does not need acid dye resistance. It is cheaper than Maxim for Upholstery. If used on upholstery it will leave it more wet. But will offer the same protection?
Again, the protection against oil is better than any other protector. The protection against dry soil is somewhat better Than Maxim for Upholstery. The protection against water based soil is almost equal to Maxim for Upholstery.

Advantage of Maxim for Upholstery or other solvent product is less concern about colors bleeding or cellulosic fibers browning.

3. Maxim Advanced for upholstery works better for natural fiber. Is it just about faster drying and the flexible polymer, or is there more to it? However, when used on upholstery, will it give any better protection than Maxim Advanced?
Maxim for Upholstery has less chance than water-based product of problems often caused by water or over-wetting. Things like cellulosic browning, color bleed, etc.

The flexible polymer is somewhat more expensive, but worth it on upholstery fabric that is subject to a lot more flexing than carpet fibers.

4.Maxim Advanced for Wool is the same as Maxim Advanced, only more concentrated? Can we carry only Maxim advanced and dilute it when applying to Nylon? Can you use the same logic and also apply to upholstery that does not require as fast drying?
Essentially correct. Maxim for Wool also has additional surfactancy to allow it to penetrate into very dense pile. You could use the regular Maxim Advanced, apply about twice as much and work it in well with a brush. But it would cost you more due to increased product usage. Fine with me.

 

[Loren Egland]

Just for Ofer . I will make this as simple as I can.

Advanced with Teflon - The best protection against oil. This makes it beneficial for oil loving fibers such as olefin, polyester and triexta (Smartstrand). The oil resistance is also great for upholstery as that is the main concern for a lot of upholstery, hair oils, body oils, etc.

Also provides better than average protection against water base soils and dry soils. No protection against acid dyes.

Maxim Advanced - The best protection against acid dyes. Because both nylon and wool are susceptible to acid dyes, this is suggested for nylon and wool carpets. Also offers good protection against oils, very good protection against dry soils and water based spills.

Maxim Advanced for Upholstery - This is for upholstery, not carpet. This does attract soil on some carpet fibers. It is neutral on upholstery fibers, does not attract soil or repel dry soil. Very good against oils and water. Suggest for high end fabrics, natural fibers.

Maxim for wool - Similar to Maxim Advanced but more concentrated for the heavier denser pile found in wool rugs.

Maxim SOS - the best protection against acid dyes. No protection against dry soils or oils. Suggested for protecting wool and nylon when a lower cost than Maxim Advanced or Maxim for Wool is desired.

So Advanced with Teflon + Maxim SOS = Maxim Advanced?
SOS is just an acid dye blocker product?
How is Advanced with Teflon better than just DuPont Teflon? (or Scotchgard?)

 

[PrimaDonna]

We use 3 products and various forms of them depending on the fiber/situation...

Scotchgard

Maxim (wool, upholstery and advanced) we offer 1 year free spot and spill warranty and charge more than Scotchgard

Fiber Protector (water and solvent versions). Most expensive option for client. Typically apply to new furniture/wool rugs and wool rugs we clean. Offer 3 year spot and spill with this. With typical cleaning frequency most homeowners do this product will not need to be reapplied after future cleanings.


I heavily researched microseal before going with Fiber Protector. Felt FP was a superior product and no requirements to purchase a certain amount every year. (As mentioned in previous post).

We protect in one for or another on 90%+ of jobs. Very profitable. But we believe in the products so that is the only way we would sell them. And our clients see the value and reapply when we clean for them again. (With exception of FP. That theoretically doesn't need to be reapplied).

@Bob Pruitt, I know you are looking at FP. Based on your demographic it would be a great fit for you. Come join the family!

 

[ruff]

Beside the hype.
Please show me any tests done by an agreed company (whom all sides trust) that proves that fiber protector does perform better.

Third party tests are not worth the paper they are written on unless we're talking-

As they are funded by the companies whose products they recommend.
And testimonials by people who bought a territory are lovely, yet not trusted much either as protecting the territory may supersede other concerns.

If people who won our trust, like Jim Pemberton or Bryan O'Halleck will tell me differently, I'll re-consider.

Sorry, the mustache alone does not do it for me.

 

[Tom Forsythe]

So Advanced with Teflon + Maxim SOS = Maxim Advanced?
SOS is just an acid dye blocker product?
How is Advanced with Teflon better than just DuPont Teflon? (or Scotchgard?)

....

Good questions!! The only Teflon product being sold is Advanced Protector with Teflon as we licensed the Teflon brand. Teflon Advanced went from a C8 formula (very good) to a C6 formula (good) to the first licensed version of Advanced Protector with Teflon (average). We were required to use their formula. We were not happy and we persuaded Chemours (new name for Dupont) to allow us to upgrade the formula on our terms with our selection of raws. We have been making this formula for one year so the original Advanced Protector with Teflon should not be sitting on any distributor shelves. This changeover has got us back to the performance of the C8 formula with the C6 components. Its strength is oil repellancy, which is why we recommend for synthetic upholstery. It is in the category of water based cationic fluorchemical carpet protectors and it is light years ahead of some formulas that I have tested. You can get from Scott some untreated nylon carpet squares that you can test for yourself against whatever you protector you choose.

Another category of protectors is water based anionic acid dye resistors with or without fluorochemical. You can not mix acid dye resistors with a cationic formula. Don't buy Maxim SOS (anionic) to mix with Advanced Protector with Teflon (cationic). Any protector with added acid dye resistors will be anionic with limited repellency. Maxim Advanced is the fluorochemical version with acid dye resistors. Earlier this year we added more acid dye resistor to enhance its well known stain resistance. Maxim SOS does not have fluorochemical so it has no oil or water repellency, but provides great stain resistance for nylon and wool fibers with dye sites. It does not provide stain resistance for cotton. Since upholstery rarely has nylon or wool, we do not see any benefit in applying to upholstery.

 

[Larry Cobb]

As Tom noted above, C8 fluorochemical formulas are the standard to measure by.

Our solvent-based C8 Ultraseal is used by many "fabric protection" companies as their primary protector.

And to quote from Mikey in response to this question:

Is there a need for two separate products for upholstery and carpet?? Can I get buy with one all in one product?

"You want a solvent option.

Water you can live without, if you only want to carry one"

 

[Loren Egland]

....

Good questions!! The only Teflon product being sold is Advanced Protector with Teflon as we licensed the Teflon brand. Teflon Advanced went from a C8 formula (very good) to a C6 formula (good) to the first licensed version of Advanced Protector with Teflon (average). We were required to use their formula. We were not happy and we persuaded Chemours (new name for Dupont) to allow us to upgrade the formula on our terms with our selection of raws. We have been making this formula for one year so the original Advanced Protector with Teflon should not be sitting on any distributor shelves. This changeover has got us back to the performance of the C8 formula with the C6 components. Its strength is oil repellancy, which is why we recommend for synthetic upholstery. It is in the category of water based cationic fluorchemical carpet protectors and it is light years ahead of some formulas that I have tested. You can get from Scott some untreated nylon carpet squares that you can test for yourself against whatever you protector you choose.

Another category of protectors is water based anionic acid dye resistors with or without fluorochemical. You can not mix acid dye resistors with a cationic formula. Don't buy Maxim SOS (anionic) to mix with Advanced Protector with Teflon (cationic). Any protector with added acid dye resistors will be anionic with limited repellency. Maxim Advanced is the fluorochemical version with acid dye resistors. Earlier this year we added more acid dye resistor to enhance its well known stain resistance. Maxim SOS does not have fluorochemical so it has no oil or water repellency, but provides great stain resistance for nylon and wool fibers with dye sites. It does not provide stain resistance for cotton. Since upholstery rarely has nylon or wool, we do not see any benefit in applying to upholstery.

Thanks Tom. That helps. I now will not mix these products.

It has been a while since I have been to a cleaning class, but I seem to recall advice to not use cationic products on stain resistant carpet. Didn't Allied many years ago require the use of anionic cleaners on their stain resist type 6 nylon carpet?

I imagine I am not understanding what goes into the chemistry, but how do you take a cationic product like Advanced Protector with Teflon and add anionic acid dye resistors without creating problems? I think I recall this also being a no no.

I suppose the reason Teflon is not what it used to be is financially motivated?
Same true of Scotchgard?

 

[Bob Pruitt]

Clear as mud. No wonder so few guys are selling protectors. Industry needs to simplify and learn to communicate.

 

[Tom Forsythe]

Trust me, buy Advanced Protector with Teflon!! It has the newest technology, benefits all fibers more than other choices, and is light years ahead of its direct competitors. Is that the simple answer you want?

 

[Bob Pruitt]

Trust you? I just bought 6 gallons of a product you guys sell and it turns out it attracts or doesn't release dirt. I already trusted you.

 

[J Scott W]

Trust you? I just bought 6 gallons of a product you guys sell and it turns out it attracts or doesn't release dirt. I already trusted you.

When used as directed, none of our protectors fail to release dry soils. The demo photo showed a protector meant for natural upholstery fibers used on synthetic carpet. The point it was not the right product for the right use.

Personally I like to understand the science of why and how something works. But you did not like that answer. You did not like the direct answer either. What's left?

 

[Bob Pruitt]

I know you guys have tried... I guess I'm slow... not bright enough to understand you guys or something...but-

If it fails to release dirt on the man made carpet...why would it release soil on the man made upholstery?
If vacuuming the upholstery will be easier...why wouldn't vacuuming the carpet be easier?
I clean lots of wool carpet so it should work there and release the dirt?
Is this product strictly for NATURAL fibers? The description below doesn't say that.

So I guess the answer to the thread - How Confident are you in your carpet protector is ... I'm not.

MAXIM ADVANCED PROTECTOR FOR UPHOLSTERY WITH DYELOC
$48.89

Another Revolutionary Bridgepoint Innovation!
If you've hesitated about offering your customers upholstery protection those days are over! Bridgepoint has now revolutionized upholstery protection with new Maxim Advanced for Upholstery!

Maxim Advanced for Upholstery will provide your customer with painless spot and spill clean-up. Their upholstery will last longer because this protector reduces wear from abrasive soiling.

Vacuuming of protected furniture will be easier, faster and more effective in removing damaging dry soils. Maxim Advanced for Upholstery leaves fine fabrics cleaner, brighter, and fresher and, it's safe for children and pets!

A New Technology Protector That:

• Uses flexible polymers that stretch with the fabric to maintain surface tension when upholstery is in use!
• Contains special dye locking and color stabilizers, making it safe to use on even the most delicate, natural upholstery fabrics and bleeders!
• Includes a special additive for consistent, complete and even coverage.
• Protects against specific upholstery soils such as hair and body oils, airborne oils, and beverage spills.
• Formulated to evaporate fast for rapid drying!
• Freeze/thaw stable.
• Also a FANTASTIC Oriental rug protector!
  

 

[Larry Cobb]

Bob;

Here is Jim P. recap of Dave Gills upholstery fabric protector testing at Experience:

Larry Cobb said: "Are there any photos of the "Dave Gill soiled fabrics" after they were cleaned ?"
. . .
"Dave contributed vandalized...err "stained" upholstery fabrics Larry.

I regret that I did not photo document what we saw with these tests. The mayhem of the outside exhibit, cleaners and suppliers wanting to try out tools rather that study stain removal, and some post surgical pain that kept me distracted caused me to overlook that, much to my regret.

Enough of the excuses though, let me share some stunning things I saw, and that participants there noticed as well.

1. Dave had squirted mustard, ketchup, barbecue sauce, and GKW (God Knows What?) on these fabrics. While these excessive amounts of foreign material might not represent "normal use", the heavy deposits allowed me to see something I have never seen on upholstery before:

On the treated surfaces, I was able to take a spotting spatula and peel off most of the surface material! The mustard was in long thick strings, that after I began to work one end free, I would remove the string and pull it off the fabric leaving little or not stain underneath! Even the majority of the barbecue sauce and ketchup, which were present more in blobs and smears, came off on the spatula easily with little remaining on the surface.

2. I was even more impressed by the fact that the treated areas came noticeably cleaner than those that were untreated. While the oily materials in the spots remained in the untreated areas after preconditioning and extraction, they were all removed from the treated areas. The only residual stains left in the treated areas were a little bit of mustard. I think an oxidizing agent might have moved the rest of it out, but compared to the untreated areas it was "night and day"

Since upholstery cleaning is my favorite subject, the fact that a treated upholstery fabric can clean better (oh, and those parts dried faster too), having been treated with protector, really got my mind working.

I'm going to do the "Dave Gill Treatment" to fabrics and cushions I have here, and let them"cook" for a couple of months (like Dave did) to be ready for my Fabric Pro class in August.

More cleaners need to see how protection can turn what would otherwise be a nearly impossible (and risky) upholstery restoration project into a relatively simple "clean and rinse" upholstery cleaning job."

 

[Wayne Thompson]

I installed and sold some of the carpet that I have been cleaning for the last 24 years, I have never put protectors on any of them, they were supposed to have it when they were made. I do not know of a mill requirement for renewing the protector on a regular basis. The examples of tests are done on carpet with no protector. If the carpet already has protector on it and there is no requirement by the mill to renew it on a regular basis, then why are we doing it?
I have been cleaning the same carpet yearly for 20 years or more. It stayed looking nice with no protector added.
Added protector makes the carpet stiffer and wetter. We buy truck mounts with great vacuum to get the carpet as dry as possible and spray protector on it and make it wetter. My customers like their carpet to dry fast and be nice and soft after the cleaning. Have you ever heard about the other cleaner leaving the carpet too wet and stiff after it dried? I do not want to be them. Does anyone know of a Mill requirement for reapplying protector? I advertise on my website that I can put protector on but most carpet already has it or is a carpet that does not need one.

 

[Tom Forsythe]

Wayne, I have a few observations about protector. First, the level and quality of mill protection varies greatly and over the years has been lowered for cost considerations. Also there are some carpets that apply no protector including some nylon and/or wool broadloom being installed in high end buildings. I actually got a sample from a high profile location that had no protector applied to a nylon fiber which was very surprising. No wonder they were seeking our help in suggesting maintenance procedures. Most oriental rugs have no protector added unless the buyer has it applied. In short, protection levels vary widely and most carpets can benefit from added protection.
There are at least 3 ways that fluorochemical and acid dye resistors are removed from carpet fibers: cleaning, foot traffic and brush agitation from vacuums. I have been told by my vendor contact with decades of experience in producing fluorochemical that cleaning removes acid dye resistors more readily than fluorochemical and that friction removes more fluorochemical than acid dye resistors. I remember (correct me if my memory is wrong) that carpet manufacturers suggest re-application of protector every 1 1/2 to 2 years to replace what protector has been lost. The general rule of thumb is that 50% of the original protector has been removed after three cleanings along with the normal wear and tear caused by friction (five years of use). Generally, a protected carpet will be used longer than an unprotected carpet which slows down the filling up of the land fills which is a green practice.

 

[J Scott W]

Most manufacturers do recommended reapplying protector.

Protector wears off. It wears away with abrasive soils. It wears off with foot traffic. It wears off with many cleaning methods.

Do any kind of test on older worn carpet, anything that has been on the floor for a couple of years, and see if the protector is still as strong as when it was new. I guarantee the protection level will be considerably reduced.

We apply protective coatings (sealers, finishes and waxes and such) to all types of flooring. Why not to carpet? I'll bet you have even waxed your car even though the manufacturer does not require it. It does help the finish stay looking nice longer.

If carpet manufacturers see the benefit of protector, why don't all of us?

 

[Bob Pruitt]

Today I put fabric protector on brand new furniture and sealer on brand new tile/grout. 4 hours work, 1,400$ and no hours on the Butler.
I sell it because it is profitable and I'm in business to make money but...
I couldn't do it if I didn't know for a fact that it helps the Client.
Next time you do a really bad commercial or restaurant spray an X with your fabric protection in the dirty traffic lane. You will get call from the Client telling you there is an X on the carpet...it's much cleaner where you sprayed the X.
Not selling protectors in a dis-service to your Customers and worse... you are not making the money with your business you and your family deserve.

 

[Loren Egland]

I usually tell my customers that both 3M and DuPont recommend reapplying after every cleaning, but that they don't require it for any wear warranties so it is still up to them, much like waxing the car. Helps protect their big carpet investment. Is that all still true?

I also tell the customer AFTER I apply protection that it will take longer to dry and that there may be a crisp static charge feel until it is walked on. As long as they expect that to be the case, they will be ok with it.