How do you go about fireing someone?

[Jim Pemberton]

Mike, my heart truly goes out to you. I had to "let a person go" who I had known for a very long time, considered a friend, and who is very popular in our local community.

I made myself sick over it, then just picked a day, and promised myself I'd do it without fail.

The meeting was difficult, but I kept the statements and conversation at a minimum. I can't speak for the person, but I think they were relieved, actually. It was obvious to everyone that "it was coming" for weeks.

It was one of the most difficult things I've done in my professional life, but it was such a relief when it was over.

Its taught me to keep more of distance between my employees and myself. I show concern for their family and well being, but I avoid personal conversations, jokes, and "small talk".

This should make future firings easier, but most people who will be honest will tell you it is never, ever easy to do Mike.

 

[KeithCo]

Greenie is correct. It is in the BRC manual.

Since I have this manual, I can fire him for you if you'd like.

Take 20 minutes and write down everything he's boneheaded.
Ideally it should be documented when it happens and discussed with him
at that time, but some docs are better than none.


Keith

 

[Mikey P]

Well, I did it.

Went much smoother then I thought.


Not much of a fight on his part. He asked if it was too late to change.

I gave him the choice of quiting or being fired. he gets to decide if he wants unemployment or a clean record.


I highly encouraged him to stay in school. Because he is a ward of the state he gets a lot of financial help to stay in school.


I trust that he will learn a lot from our talk and his experience with me.



Sure feels good to let all that anger go....Whew!


Thanks for all the advice.

 

[Brian L]

Mike, are you now a one-man-gang for a while?

 

[Mikey P]

Nope, new guy starts tomorrow.

 

[Jim Pemberton]

Congratulations Mike. From the little you've said, I can tell from the context that he might benefit from this experience in the long run.

You also did something I failed to tell you that I always do: I never leave a problem in my head over the weekend. Everything that can be settled by Friday is done, so my weekend is free of stress (at least as much as possible).

Good for you, and let us know how the "replacement" works out.

 

[Mikey P]

It's kinda funny how fast anger can turn to sorrow.


I really hope the best for the kid.


He's had a very challenging life so far.

 

[Jim Pemberton]

Lee used to hire "people with issues" all the time. When I was very young, there seemed to always be a young man staying overnight or staying for dinner.

Sadly, most of these people took advantage of him and his kindness, just as it seems to have happened to you Mike.

I would guess that others of you extended the same kindness to the needy, but not necessarily the worthy.

 

[Lee Stockwell]

Jim that's so true. The fact that I did that sometimes turned me off on employing ANYONE for a while.

 

[KC OHanlon]

I trust that he will learn a lot from our talk and his experience with me.

Thanks for all the advice.

More importantly.... did you learn from the experience. Pay the initial price to hire someone who has the ability to exceed even your customer's expectations. It's going to cost you more up front but will pay off handsomely in the future if you choose the right guy.

Firing people is never be easy because it's also an admission that you are ultimately to blame for having hired the wrong person in the first place. doh!

 

[Mikey P]

Gee thanks KC, can I get you some more Salt?










Point well taken though.

 

[alazo1]

Glad it went well. I know what you mean about feeling bad after it's all over. I've let so many people go and know the feeling. My best friend and roommate was the hardest to let go. For some reason the employees that screwed up the most were the hardest to let go for me.

Albert

 

[The Great Oz]

#1 - Let him know what he needs to work on.
#2 - Encourage him when he does it right, even if it's only once a day.
#3 - Remind him what he needs to work on.
#4 - Sit down and write up what he needs to work on, and a further review date that may become a dismissal date.

Now when it's time to fire him, it isn't a gut churner for you, as you've been straight with him the entire time he's been employed.

#5 - Dismissal interview includes a review of the dates of prior conversations, how much you like him personally, he's not a bad guy but the job and his aptitudes just aren't a good fit, and it's time to give someone else a shot at the job.

Of course you have final checks ready, along with a letter of reference that outlines the things he does well, and any benefits paperwork he needs to have.

#6 - Give him these, and let him know you will have to be honest with another business owner that might call for information. Keep this talk to less than five minutes if you can.

You're in good shape since you kept him informed. It's the guys that get angry at an employee or give up on him and don't say anything to him until they fire him that get sued.




PS: Paraphrased from a Mack Clark seminar:

I have an employee I'll call Larry. We're sort of related, or used to be, by a couple of extended marriages. He's a nice enough guy, shows up on time every day, doesn't complain. But he can't work on his own without screwing something up. I have to make sure I or another employee is working along side him to make sure he stays on track.

I see some of you are nodding, do you have a "Larry" of your own?

Well, what are you thinking? As soon as you get home, fire him!

Anyone you hire will likely be a better fit, and the rest of your employees will thank you for taking the burden of managing a "special" employee away from them. There's also a chance that his next job will be a better fit and he'll be happier there.

 

[alazo1]

Good info Bryan.

let him know you will have to be honest with another business owner that might call for information

This one was always tough due to that if you say too much you can get sued. I was always lead to believe that one of the only questions you could ask is "would you hire him/her again". After a while of calling references you got the feeling that ex employers were being very cautious. Maybe even talking positive of the person so that they can stop paying unemployment.

Albert

 

[Desk Jockey]

It usually sticks with me for a day or two.."did he deserve it?", "was it my fault?", "could I have done something different?", am I a heartless bastard?"

Actually or (unfortunately) I see alot of them as time passes, most have actually moved on and become better employees, a few come back and try to make it work one more time, others sink even lower and prove it wasn't us that caused the separation.

 

[Steve Toburen]

Yes, Richard, you are heartless. Now that we have that cleared up a few thoughts:

1. Alberto is absolutely right. Say NOTHING about other a bad employee other than confirming he or she worked for you. Any more and you are inviting a very big lawsuit. (I would never argue with our Industry Curmudgeon, Mr. Hides, so maybe things are different north of the border. But here in the good old US of A you can only be "totally honest" with a prospective employer at great financial risk to yourself.)

2. When firing someone ("terminating" an employee sounds a bit "final") keep it brief and NEVER preach at them or engage in a long-winded diatribe over their lengthy list of failings as an employee and a human being. Treat them with respect and dignity but be very firm.

3. If an employee is surprised by being fired it means that either a) you have done a poor job as a manager or b) they are very stupid. (Or maybe both.)

4. Be extremely careful to follow the letter of the law when firing people. There are a lot of gun-slinger attorneys out there who can make your life miserable just by touching a few keys of their computer.

5. Don't be co-dependent for lengthy periods of time. It is easy to have hindsight but a year does sound like a long time to put up with a marginal employee, Mike. It just prolongs the agony for both them and you by putting off the inevitable.

6. Even worse, you are marking time on growing your business if you are wasting time on someone with no growth potential (If in fact growing is what you want to do.) Of course this means that the owner needs to have in mind what he wants the business to do and a lot of owner-operators are ambivalent on this.

Just my two cents,

Steve Toburen CR
Director of Training
Jon-Don's Strategies for Success

PS I think the biggest reason most of us (myself included) put up with ziperheads (Mack Clark word) for too long is FEAR. We're afraid of the hiring/ training process for a new employee and so instead we just grit our teeth and endure. Plus another fear factor may be that the fired employee owns an UZI ... All the more reason to treat them with respect!

 

[Bob Savage]

Great advice.

I've had to fire a few over the years. It's never easy, but if there is a problem with an employee, and they have had chances to correct their deficiency, you have to consider your business, and not consider it a personal thing.

I had to fire my son this year, It wasn't easy, but it was time for him to move on. I also had to fire a friend.

Do not hire a relative, a friend, or a friend of a relative.

 

[Mikey P]

Too be honest ,my main reason for not doing it earlier is like Steve said.


I just too damn busy to train some one.


This is the perfect time of year to spend the time it takes to get a "helper" up and running.


KC is right though, I did learn plenty.


AND, I am now just coming to terms that I do need to grow beyond the OO status.

 

[Desk Jockey]

Thanks for the conformation Steve!

I kind of figured it was me...especially after my employees call me heartless!

 

[JohnnyV]

I've had my wife's nephew working for me for about 3 years. First doing Janitorial and then this last year with the carpet cleaning. He was good to go on his own but I spoiled him by not telling him in the beginning that I intende for him to eventually be on his own. I sent him out to do a few jobs by himself and got great feed-back from the customers. He got to looking at it as if I were punishing him by making him go out on his own. I explained more than once that I needed him to go so I could work on Marketing. He'd get pissed if we got slow and i'd make him clean the truck or shop. There were weeks where he was drawing a paycheck and I wasn't.

Just make sure with your new hire that he knows the full extent of his job description so you don't run into the same problem.

As far as firing him goes, make it short and sweet. No apologies.

We'll " Blank", you're just not fitting in here and I'm letting you go.

 

[DannyD]

Its taught me to keep more of distance between my employees and myself. I show concern for their family and well being, but I avoid personal conversations, jokes, and "small talk".

I'm going to respectfully disagree w/ this. I'm not saying you have to be best friends w/ all your employees here. I would think that this would make the job, or process of working w/ someone if ya will, a little less enjoyable because it "might" not work out & would be easier to let someone go. I realize this isn't sex but this would be akin to not getting quite as close to my girlfriend because we "might" break up. It almost seems like a defense mechanism to not get hurt as much at the end.

So w/ that in mind I'd want the most fun work environment & if the situation w/ someone doesn't happen to work out it may be a lil tougher at the end but the time you were working w/ em was more fun.

Also, to Mike. I'm not familiar w/ the whole situation so I could be way off here. If ya like the kid I wouldn't fire him right before Christmas. The post about not being fair to clients by having him work is accurate. So if ya can swing it hold off on letting him go until after Christmas but don't send him out on any job.

Take care & good luck,
Danny

 

[The Great Oz]

I used to stick to the "say nothing or you'll get sued" rule too, offering only "I would not re-hire him" or offer the code "He was good at these things" and not say anything else.

An attorney that specializes in wrongful firing lawsuits told me that lawsuits over information offered by a former employer are rarer than being hit by lightning. It's just when a company loses one they make the news, and few attorneys will take on this kind of case unless the things said are so inaccurate and outrageous that the former employee will look like a saint compared to the jerk they worked for.

I usually tell the prospective employer what the person was exceptionally good at, and if there was a particular duty we needed performed that he couldn't do, and how he fit in with coworkers. They could then decide if the person was a fit for their job.

You have to consider the damage you may do to the next employer if the former employee was awful, as (just as rare) you could be held responsible for not letting them know.

Just telling the fired employee you'll be honest is usually enough to make them tell the next employer what to expect from you, or not use you as a reference at all if they know you won't recommend them.


PS: We once hired a woman based on a letter of recommendation from a former employer. As time went on the more bizarre nature of her personality became apparent. Knowing her coworkers were fed up with her, she walked out in the middle of the day. She then called and said she could no longer take the mental abuse she was getting from her supervisor and was so stressed she just had to get out as soon as possible.

Unbalanced, and hurtful to the supervisor that had done nothing wrong, but smart. Even though she quit, she gets unemployment compensation right away, and who wouldn't expect the company she left to say bad things about her? No one ever bothered to call (I absolutely would have told them about her) so they'll get to find out on their own.

My guess is that most companies were like us at that time, and don't bother calling former employers because they think all they'll get is a canned answer. A letter of recommendation could work for her forever.

 

[Guest]

Mikey and the Kid are JWITS..So Xmas means NOT a thing to them from my understanding.


Is that the JWIT way?




Chad

 

[Mikey P]

Danny is more of a JWit then I am Chad....

 

[Lee Stockwell]

The kid, as described, seemed a bit "out there" next to most I know here. Could be a California thing?

 

[Steve Lawrence]

RIck, he's already been fired. That was nice, though.

 

[Numero Uno]

From day one.Policies and forms and checklists should be used...

Infractions and good things noted as they go...

Never talk in off color language for the image they see and you present helps ensure longer ,better mannered employees...

keep it business,business,business...

Hire the national guard also...

And never have a client image and an separate employee image...

Both will see through you...Hypocrisy is never good...

Talk the talk ,walk the walk,and make a great company...

 

[ron markam]

Know this is an old thread but wanted to thank everyone for their advice.I have watched this thread from day one as I am in the same situation that Mike was in. Gotta let someone go and am not feeling real good about it. One thing in my favor is I have talked and talked and talked. Mistake was no documentation but the people at this account are weary of this guy so I gotta do what I gotta do.I should have done this a while ago as every time I would say something to him about performance he would get an attitude(even though I was as nice and calm as possible).He would do what I ask but then the same old stuff starts all over again. I realize it may be extremely hard to find someone who will care about your biz the way you do but I do have some that do. Again thanks guys for all your wisdom and advice.

 

[The Asian Sensation]

All you have to say is "You are the weakest link, Goodbye!!".

 

[Desk Jockey]

All you have to say is "You are the weakest link, Goodbye!!".

:shock:




:wink: