How to manage dye bleed issues on Oriental Rugs

#1
Supportive Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2012
Messages
1,508
Location
Ann Arbor, MI
Credits
194
Points
194
Name
Tom Monahan
Let's get it out there, what have you been told to do about rugs that bleed color?

More specifically, what have you been told that causes it and how you are to manage it when it occurs?

It is obvious that some chemical manufacturers feature remedies in a bottle. I recommend that they chime in and discuss what they have to offer and why it works.

Can we clear the air on any misinformation?

Let's begin a thoughtful thread and hopefully arrive at sage advice and observations.
 
#3
Lifetime Supportive Member
Joined
Aug 19, 2013
Messages
2,862
Location
San Francisco, CA.
Credits
585
Points
585
Name
John Stewart
This topic is the Main reason I'm sending my tech to Rug Summit 10 next week. We were TAUGHT the remedy at Robert Mann's Last year... This time he will listen and participate more actively in an effort to LEARN the remedy.
 
Likes: Mikey P
#4
Joined
Oct 22, 2012
Messages
9,799
Location
New Westminster,BC
Credits
5,568
Points
5,568
Name
Ron Marriott
Here is an example of a runner that came into the shop recently. I don't know what happened to it, could be water damage or improper cleaning. The customer knows the rug is damaged and doesn't expect to have it corrected, just cleaned. If I could correct for a reasonable price, I am sure the customer would say go ahead. How would correct this type of dye bleed?
IMG_20160924_083909.jpg
IMG_20160924_083909.jpg
 

Attachments

#5
Supportive Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2012
Messages
1,508
Location
Ann Arbor, MI
Credits
194
Points
194
Name
Tom Monahan
Your specimen is fixable.

If you could roll back the clock and had the chance to wash this rug before it looked this way, would process should be used to manage a safe and effective wash? Part of the answer to consider is what is it made of and what happened to it to get these unsatisfactory current results?

Let's keep this thread going with examples of what is being said and what remedies in a bottle are directed by industry leaders and instructors.

(Yes, naturally we will be discussing these matters at Rug Summit in demos and in private networking opportunities)
 
Likes: Cleanworks
#6
Supportive Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2006
Messages
5,793
Location
Dallas, Texas USA
Credits
0
Points
0
Name
Larry Cobb
Tom;
I am proposing a shift from old school Sodium Hydrosulfite to our ReduceAll powder.

Besides being more effective, it doesn't yellow the wool, which saves an extra step.

We got some good feedback from several rug cleaners at the Experience show.

DyeBleeding.jpg
 
Last edited:
#9
Supportive Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2006
Messages
5,793
Location
Dallas, Texas USA
Credits
0
Points
0
Name
Larry Cobb
We sell both the Sodium Hydrosulfite stripper (like Streepene, etc)

and

the new ReduceAll.

The ReduceAll also has high potential to remove urine staining

from damaged rugs in the wash cycle or tub.
 
Last edited:
Likes: T Monahan
#11
Joined
Dec 29, 2008
Messages
46
Location
Denver, Colorado
Credits
6
Points
6
Name
Robert Mann
Larry Cobb, I recently tested your dye removal powder and was pleased with the initial results. I'm planning on experimenting with it more. Regarding sodium hydrosulfite and yellowing, I have to say that I have been using a lot of hydro, for a long time, and find that, with proper formulation and application, good results can be had with no 'yellowing' issues.

Regarding Tom Monahan's question posed to chemical salesmen, I too would like to hear more discussion about the range of products being offered that are said to 'stabilize' dyes, rinse or remove excess dye from rugs, and remove dyes that have bled.

Following the internet chat sites you hear a lot of 'rah-rah' boosterism promoting one 'secret' formation or another, though many of these products are likely based on the same small group of active ingredients - most of which can be bought 'generically', and in bulk.

Given the desire to maintain proprietary control over product formulation data, and thus protect that product in the market, the folks who sell this stuff don't seem inclined to talk about how any of it actually works. Or how well it works, except to say it is great. I get it; they are in business.

The problem is that the rug cleaning industry is small and has no open peer reviewed developmental forum for it's technology. There is no textbook. There are no real standards. There is little access to peer reviewed hard data.

And so, in the absence of such, 'experts' present preposterous examples of voo-doo science to prove that what they say is true, often inciting partisan bickering and factionalism. It is not how you move an industry forward.
 
#12
Supportive Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2012
Messages
1,508
Location
Ann Arbor, MI
Credits
194
Points
194
Name
Tom Monahan
Mr. Mann, Centrum Force wants to distance themselves from "voo-doo science" and we are transparent about all our products. It is better to discuss how it works so expectations do not exceed reality.

Let me personally go on record about a product Centrum Force promotes for their Wash Tub users, namely Secret Sauce. It is an additive to be introduced into the contained water vessel of the Wash Tub. It is not meant to be splashed on rugs on the floor and rinsed down the drain.

Secret Sauce was initially intended to be used in our Wash Tub application for dye management when rugs release dyes during the washing process. We did not sell to the public for years, but rather we confined sales only to Wash Tub clients only. The many Wash Tub users have appreciated that unique circumstance for nearly 10 years now. We never said, nor believe, that it locks dyes on the textile.

Using it in a 1200 gallon paddle wheel wash tub necessitates that it must be used as directed to realize its full objective. The objective is managing and preventing the staining of direct dyes or reactive dyes or re-deposit loose dyes during the wash. This additive especially has value when multiple textile pieces are being washed together as often is the case with Centrum Force Wash Tub users. Think of it as a binder or suspending agent to capture loose dyes.

The key to Secret Sauce is this fact: It has elements of a water-soluble polymer.
Note: It is nonionic and has a ph of 7 undiluted. It has been tested by WoolSafe. It has received the WoolSafe seal of approval.

Of further note: Conventional cleaning agents, detergents and wetting agents do not affect its desired performance. That is why we use our proprietary product known as Knock-Out as our preferred cleaning agent with it. Knock-Out is a plant based Colloidal Micelle cleaning product formulated to wash rugs specifically as we suggest. (Incidentally, it makes a wonderful, non scented laundry cleaner for use on clothes in your washing machine at home. It only requires about ½ oz of concentrate for each wash load provided you are using the newer type of water efficient washing machine)

Secret Sauce and Knock-out, as well as U-Turn are all WoolSafe Approved.

13239480_1046114865470795_7682107301120634967_n.jpg
 
#14
Joined
Nov 1, 2014
Messages
216
Location
Fl
Credits
68
Points
68
Name
Mat
"Rugs" is an all encompassing term. There are tufted tugs from pottery barn, heirloom needlepoint rugs, custom stark carpeting, wool rugs, viscose...then there is a whole other class of expensive rugs that someone got handed down/second hand, that are likely in crappy shape and they don't/(won't) have the money to maintain properly. So how does one care for all of these? For me they fall into two categories. #1. clean on site...noe really dirty or not really highly valued, or not great expectations...these I clean onsite with a crazy amount of vacuuming light detergent/pre-conditioning, light on the water, speed dried with fans. Sometimes, encapped if they look sketchy. Sometimes people just won't/can't pay to have a proper offsite cleaning. #2 those I do...a preliminary bleed test with the same solution I am cleaning with, lets say it's Ultra TLC from Pros choice. Generally, I spray some on a clean white towel then place it on the rug and stand on it for 5 minutes or so (I realize this is not a fail safe test, it might still bleed, but it's not likely). If it's a bleeder it gets a heavy dose of CSS, (though I hear Acetic (sp) acid or vinegar would be much cheaper, but there's no tech support for them :-)). Then it's cleaned and rinsed with Natural Fiber Cleaner. It gets a complete vacuum early on as well. #3 those that scare me or if I'm pressed time-wise, I take to a trusted local rug shop.

All that said...I know one longstanding rug shop that uses formula 90 on nearly everything will good results, go figure!
 
Likes: Matt Wood
#17
Supportive Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2012
Messages
1,508
Location
Ann Arbor, MI
Credits
194
Points
194
Name
Tom Monahan
Mrice,

You said, " If it's a bleeder it gets a heavy dose of CSS"

Why? What does it do for you in this circumstance you describe with the method of cleaning you described in your remarks?

Thanks in advance.
 
Likes: Lee Stockwell
#18
Joined
Nov 1, 2014
Messages
216
Location
Fl
Credits
68
Points
68
Name
Mat
CSS is pros choice color agent to stabilize dyes to prevent color bleed in textiles and control browning. As you know there are so many different situations, if it looks like it's going to be a bleeder I take it away and clean it. I have used the CSS in home when there were indications of bleeding but it is much harder to clean it offsite, ie. huge dining room table or no funds to take away cleaning. It works on furniture too.
 
#19
Supportive Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2012
Messages
1,508
Location
Ann Arbor, MI
Credits
194
Points
194
Name
Tom Monahan
CSS is pros choice color agent to stabilize dyes to prevent color bleed in textiles and control browning. As you know there are so many different situations, if it looks like it's going to be a bleeder I take it away and clean it. I have used the CSS in home when there were indications of bleeding but it is much harder to clean it offsite, ie. huge dining room table or no funds to take away cleaning. It works on furniture too.
In connection with the point of why I started this thread, permit me to ask you the following:

What does "stabilize dyes to prevent color bleed in textiles" mean to you?

Is this giving you a predicable expectation as a result?
 
#20
Joined
Nov 1, 2014
Messages
216
Location
Fl
Credits
68
Points
68
Name
Mat
Tom, it does and that coupled with the ability to call and talk to an extremely knowledgeable rep at the manufacture if there is an outlying situation, means I've eliminated some risk.
 
Likes: T Monahan
#21
Joined
Oct 22, 2012
Messages
9,799
Location
New Westminster,BC
Credits
5,568
Points
5,568
Name
Ron Marriott
I know the intent of this thread is not to provide a whole course on cleaning rugs but at the same time, a little info on application of color repair chemicals would be appreciated for those who don't have a wash tub yet. Jordan provided pics a little while ago of him correcting dye bleed with stain magic and I had the lovely experience about 30 years ago of correcting a Navajo rug that bled in a flood with Streepene and a box of q-tips. Only took about 3 weeks. Are their simpler ways of correcting pre-existing dye bleed by adding products to your cleaning system, whether it's a pit or your are shampooing and rinsing with an extractor.
 
#22
Supportive Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2006
Messages
5,793
Location
Dallas, Texas USA
Credits
0
Points
0
Name
Larry Cobb
. . . Are their simpler ways of correcting pre-existing dye bleed by adding products to your cleaning system, whether it's a pit or your are shampooing and rinsing with an extractor.
Tom's Secret Sauce is, I believe, a Dye Transfer Inhibitor.
It works by attaching to any dye that bleeds into the cleaning solution,
and preventing it from redepositing on the rug.
This will work on the majority of rugs (with the right ionic chemistry),
but there is still a small group of rugs that will develop some bleeding.

In the testing that I have seen, DTI will not remove pre-existing bleeding.

We also would use a DTI for difficult rugs that have bled profusely.
 
#23
Joined
Feb 27, 2013
Messages
445
Location
Indianapolis, IN
Credits
38
Points
38
Name
Jordan King
Learning when and on what to use sodium hydrosulfite has eliminated just about any fear I have about washing certain types of rugs.

While not completely fail safe and still having a bit of a learning curve, it is a crucial tool in our plant.

You can apply it after the wash prior to spinning, most of the time eliminating post drying correction.
 
#24
Supportive Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2006
Messages
5,793
Location
Dallas, Texas USA
Credits
0
Points
0
Name
Larry Cobb
Sodium Hydrosulfite is inhibited by alkaline pH cleaning detergents.

ReduceAll works best at an alkaline pH of 9 (good for washing) .

The combo of ReduceAll and a Dye Transfer Inhibitor will make the process more trouble-free,

and BRIGHTEN all the colors in the rug.
 
Last edited:
#25
Joined
Dec 29, 2008
Messages
46
Location
Denver, Colorado
Credits
6
Points
6
Name
Robert Mann
Larry are you suggesting the use of the Reduce All and Dye Transfer Inhibitor formulations during a detergent cleaning process. If so, do you have the products ready for sale along with recommended concentrations and process? I would be very interested in testing such a formulation.

Regarding the statement that it will "brighten all the colors in the rug". Can you explain how this works? Does it remove overall oxidization/yellowing, or somehow actually lighten the dye in the rug itself? Is it some other reaction? There is a long tradition of formulations that 'lighten and brighten' rugs in various ways used by the rug production washing industry. Is you process something entirely different?
 
Likes: T Monahan
#26
Supportive Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2012
Messages
1,508
Location
Ann Arbor, MI
Credits
194
Points
194
Name
Tom Monahan
I am pleased with the responses to this thread thus far.

Let me be clear on a point made earlier. Secret Sauce used in a Wash Tub environment will help to manage the dye coming off textiles. It assists to keep dyes loose in suspension. Inhibits them from depositing back of the textile. We always keep the Wash Tub ph environment close to neutral. We use Di-Chlor to help clean the water healthy and it reduces the ph too.

On another matter, if the rug has existing dye migration, as pictured earlier in the thread, then washing in the Tub may have little effect in removing unwanted dye in places in already migrated into. To remedy that, we would use a stripper. Our 'go to' product is often Sodium Hydrosulfite. If it is blue indigo dye, we may have to go to a chlorinated product and then neutralize it in a flush rinse.

I too am interested in Larry Cobb's idea: "Reduce All and Dye Transfer Inhibitor formulations during a detergent cleaning process"

Furthermore, I am prepared to use it at Rug Summit next week if I can have it by then. Otherwise, I can experiment at my shop in Ann Arbor later.

Additionally, I agree that the following idea suggested by Larry needs more clarity: "brighten all the colors in the rug". Regarding that, Robert Mann asks, "Can you explain how this works? Does it remove overall oxidization/yellowing, or somehow actually lighten the dye in the rug itself? Is it some other reaction? There is a long tradition of formulations that 'lighten and brighten' rugs in various ways used by the rug production washing industry. Is you process something entirely different?"

Again, I appreciate the dialogue.
 
#27
Joined
Oct 22, 2012
Messages
9,799
Location
New Westminster,BC
Credits
5,568
Points
5,568
Name
Ron Marriott
Larry, could I use your reduceall in a 175 with a solution tank and shampoo brush to remove fugitive dyes without affecting the rest of the color? Could I then rinse with water or acidic solution without affecting the color of the rug?
 
#28
Joined
Dec 29, 2008
Messages
46
Location
Denver, Colorado
Credits
6
Points
6
Name
Robert Mann
Ron I can't answer for Larry, but I've seen hydro run through a 175. It's an old trick and was used often to strip the paint jobs on 'American' Sarouks headed for the Euro market of the 80's. I often wondered if the agitation the machine caused wasn't counter productive; you are applying a reducer, but whipping oxygen into the pile as you go. We still strip Sarouks on the floor for the dealer trade but generally just pour, push the solution around, and give it some dwell time.
 
Likes: Cleanworks
#29
Joined
Oct 22, 2012
Messages
9,799
Location
New Westminster,BC
Credits
5,568
Points
5,568
Name
Ron Marriott
I am thinking of purchasing this rug from the customer, if I can get it for a reasonable price. I can use it as a test rug for the shop. I could also just mix up the reducer in a large pail and pour it on and squeegee it. I am in the process of building a wash pit, hoping that will make it easier.
 
Likes: Larry Cobb
#30
Supportive Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2006
Messages
2,742
Location
West Jordan, UT
Credits
305
Points
305
Name
Scott Warrington
Bridgepoint has a few products that can be sued to help prevent fugitive dyes from damaging rugs.

Dye-Loc, the name is misleading as it does not lock dyes into the fiber. It works in 3 ways.
#1 It contains a hyper-branching chemical that is a trade sedcret and I can't talk much about. But essential, this helps fill most dye sites on cellulosic fibers (cotton) and also fills many dye sites on protein fibers (wool and silk). This means that any fugitive dyes are less likely to be deposited on the fibers.
#2 Dye-Loc holds dyes in suspension so that even if there are loose or fugitive dyes present, they don't easily settle down on the rug being cleaned. I will try and post a link to a video that demonstrates this action.
#It has a near neutral pH which contributers to a more stable dye as compared to alkaline cleaning solutions that can make acid dyes more likley to bleed.

Dye-Loc demo -
If a rug is suspected of being a bleeded. Dye-Loc can be mixed at 3ounces to a gallon. The rug then gets a spray application of the Dye-Loc solution prioer to wet cleaning.

Wool Medic is primarily used to assist in flushing urine from rugs. Older urine becomes alkaline and can make dyes more likely to bleed. The key ingredients are to release alkaline salts and proteins from the rug. Wool Medic has a pH 3. When we say this stabilizes dyes, it is because common types of dyes are less likely to bleed in an acid solution than in an alkaline cleaning solution. Rug Washers have traditionally used glycolic acid or other acid solutions to stablize dyes or make them less likely to bleed. Wool Medic includes other ingredients that allow it to penetrate dense pile and fibers and bring the benefits to all parts of the rug faster than an acid only solution.
 

Latest posts

Top