How to manage dye bleed issues on Oriental Rugs

T Monahan

Supportive Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2012
Messages
1,673
Location
Ann Arbor, MI
Name
Tom Monahan
Larry says, "I do have product available for your Rug Tub Washer test for the "brightening" cleaning process. Can the Centrum wash tub operate with less than 1200 gallons for a test clean?"

Yes! I have a small fully operational wash tub in my show trailer. (A cubic foot of water there is approximately 7.5 gallons of water) My trailer tub is less than half the size of our standard version. Maybe 500 gallons or so. Would that help?

Incidentally, we have a stainless steel, perforated paddle shaped tool, that we now have available for spotting:

https://www.centrumforce.com/products/stainless-steel-rug-spotting-extraction-tool
 

Larry Cobb

Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2006
Messages
5,795
Location
Dallas, Texas USA
Name
Larry Cobb
Tom;

For valid testing ideally, we would have to cut a couple of faded color rugs in half (I know how that affects rug lovers).
Half to be washed in your 500 gal. tub with your neutral detergent. The other half would be washed with the ReduceAll + Dye transfer Inhibitor + neutral detergent + pH raised to 9.
By comparison we could then judge the brightening effectiveness.


P.S. the SS paddle tool looks nice, but some of these hand-woven rugs seem too dense for sufficient airflow.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nate The Great

T Monahan

Supportive Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2012
Messages
1,673
Location
Ann Arbor, MI
Name
Tom Monahan
Tom;

For valid testing ideally, we would have to cut a couple of faded color rugs in half (I know how that affects rug lovers).
Half to be washed in your 500 gal. tub with your neutral detergent. The other half would be washed with the ReduceAll + Dye transfer Inhibitor + neutral detergent + pH raised to 9.
By comparison we could then judge the brightening effectiveness.


P.S. the SS paddle tool looks nice, but some of these hand-woven rugs seem too dense for sufficient airflow.

Sounds like we should test for all to compare. Let's proceed.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Cleanworks

T Monahan

Supportive Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2012
Messages
1,673
Location
Ann Arbor, MI
Name
Tom Monahan
This topic is the Main reason I'm sending my tech to Rug Summit 10 next week. We were TAUGHT the remedy at Robert Mann's Last year... This time he will listen and participate more actively in an effort to LEARN the remedy.

Demo at Rug Summit 10:
Robert Mann Stripping Screen shot 2016-10-08 at 7_36_04 PM.png
Robert Mann Stripping Screen shot 2016-10-08 at 7_37_34 PM.png
 

T Monahan

Supportive Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2012
Messages
1,673
Location
Ann Arbor, MI
Name
Tom Monahan
This topic is the Main reason I'm sending my tech to Rug Summit 10 next week. We were TAUGHT the remedy at Robert Mann's Last year... This time he will listen and participate more actively in an effort to LEARN the remedy.

Did your tech learn something?
Was it worth the expense to come to Rug Summit?

MANN Screen shot 2016-10-08 at 7_21_16 PM.png
MANN Screen shot 2016-10-08 at 7_21_40 PM.png
MANN Screen shot 2016-10-08 at 7_21_56 PM.png
 

Larry Cobb

Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2006
Messages
5,795
Location
Dallas, Texas USA
Name
Larry Cobb
Larry are you suggesting the use of the Reduce All and Dye Transfer Inhibitor formulations during a detergent cleaning process. If so, do you have the products ready for sale along with recommended concentrations and process? I would be very interested in testing such a formulation.

Regarding the statement that it will "brighten all the colors in the rug". Can you explain how this works? Does it remove overall oxidization/yellowing, or somehow actually lighten the dye in the rug itself? Is it some other reaction? There is a long tradition of formulations that 'lighten and brighten' rugs in various ways used by the rug production washing industry. Is you process something entirely different?

Robert; It is whitening the undyed portion of the wool fiber, changing it from yellow to white.
We have been adding our new ColorSorb Dye Transfer Inhibitor , to the ReduceAll mixture with STPP for pH control.
This mixture is what I am proposing in the bath (along with neutral detergent) to brighten colors and eliminate any yellowing from urine stains. I sent you a "test package" of all three ingredients today for your testing.

We did try side-by-side testing of the "hydro" next to the ReduceAll/STPP and the ReduceAll side did better on removing the Yellow bleeding.
Unfortunately, both sides bled a little more as they dried overnight, so that is why the ColorSorb Dye Transfer Inhibitor should help reduce that tendency.

Thanks for the call today and let me know how the testing performed.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: T Monahan

Larry Cobb

Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2006
Messages
5,795
Location
Dallas, Texas USA
Name
Larry Cobb
New ColorSorb Dye Inhibitor prevents any anionic or disperse dye from reattaching back to uncolored wool fiber.

We are also testing a new actual Enzyme which also brightens the colors in a wool rug,
by whitening the underlying wool fiber.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: T Monahan

sweendogg

Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2008
Messages
3,534
Location
Bloomington, IL 61704
Name
David Sweeney
Larry you stated you still had dye transfer after application from drying.. part of the advantage of using Hydro is that dilutions allow you to flood an entire rug to clear the rug of excess dyes when applicable and with the proper extraction equipment.. ie. wringers or centrifuges, enough moisture is removed that secondary bleeding during drying is rarely a problem.

With all the talk about chemicals it seems we are all missing the big elephant in the room and that is understanding when you can use strippers.. In other words not all dyes were created equal with different mordants, to synthetic vs vegtable dyes... All of these factors can affect how effective these chemical stripping agents are going to be. For example, attempting to strip a machine made older FtF Wilton Capel rug, the hydro turned the colors a fun Orange color that had to be corrected with a strong oxidizer. We ended up using a titantium stripper ( yellow go) to remove the color in this case. I've also seen hydro turn a modern overdyed persian Rug from a mellow pink to electric pink in those field areas but do little to stop the bleeding issues.

So perhaps we should focus our disscussion more on when is it appropriate to utilize each type of stripping solutions... All of the different methods are great tools in the tool box but recognizing when to grab the right one can save a lot of time.
 

rmann

Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2008
Messages
53
Location
Denver, Colorado
Name
Robert Mann
David Sweeney brought up a critical piece of the 'stripping & color run removal' picture. How dyes react to reducers and oxidizers varies from one dye type, or formulation, to another. Acid dyes react quickly to strippers but since their formulations are generally blends of primary colors, each of which can react at a different rate to a reducer, they often 'change' color as they are stripped. Natural dyes don't generally 'strip', though some brighten with the application of a stripper. If anyone thinks natural dyes don't run, think again. Dye bleed in natural dye rugs is common; it usually happens in production washes, but can also occur during regular cleaning as well. Most natural dye color run can not be treated with reducers. To learn to strip rugs on a daily basis the first thing to do is to start working on your rug id skills, then start reading about dyes and how they work.

There has been a lot said about how stripper (sodium hydrosulfite) damages or 'yellows' wool. A popular authority in the rug washing field regularly states that strippers should be avoided because they 'damage wool'. This may be true in inappropriately high concentrations or faulty applications, but is not so when the chemicals are used correctly. It is common practice when dying wool with acid dyes to 'correct' your mistakes by boiling skeins of wool that came out the 'wrong' color in a bath of stripper to remove all dye from the fiber so it can be dyed again in a different shade.

Speaking of boiling wool yarns its worth noting that nearly every piece of yarn in every wool or silk rug we wash has been boiled or simmered in a water bath while it was being dyed. Most rugs we clean have been treated with powerful solutions of oxidizers, reducers, and acids during the production washes that nearly every manufacturer uses to make their rugs look like what consumers want to buy.

I am not suggesting that cleaners can be careless or use inappropriate chemicals and procedures. I do question blanket statements made regularly over the years by experts with agendas. Contentions that oxidizers can't be used on rugs, that warm water is dangerous, and a collection of other do and don't prohibitions, are not necessarily true. The rug producing industry has myriad procedures that run counter to the prevailing wisdom in the rug cleaning business. Rug producers don't like to talk about such things for fear of alarming the buying public, and they usually keep their procedures and formulations 'proprietary'. Learning more about how rugs are made and finished will help any rug cleaner understand the reactions that take place every day on the wash floor.
 

ruff

Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
11,010
Location
San Francisco, CA
Name
Ofer Kolton
And to put things into perspective.
Those of you that clean a fair share of rugs. What percentage would you say are bleeders?
 

Mikey P

Administrator
Joined
Oct 6, 2006
Messages
112,308
Location
The High Chapperal
And to put things into perspective.
Those of you that clean a fair share of rugs. What percentage would you say are bleeders?
Ken Snow told me once that for them it was way under 5%. The cost to pre test each rug far outweighed the cost to fix or replace.

Im sure their quick turn around process played part in that low percentage
 
  • Like
Reactions: ruff

Cleanworks

Moderator
Joined
Oct 22, 2012
Messages
26,928
Location
New Westminster,BC
Name
Ron Marriott
David Sweeney brought up a critical piece of the 'stripping & color run removal' picture. How dyes react to reducers and oxidizers varies from one dye type, or formulation, to another. Acid dyes react quickly to strippers but since their formulations are generally blends of primary colors, each of which can react at a different rate to a reducer, they often 'change' color as they are stripped. Natural dyes don't generally 'strip', though some brighten with the application of a stripper. If anyone thinks natural dyes don't run, think again. Dye bleed in natural dye rugs is common; it usually happens in production washes, but can also occur during regular cleaning as well. Most natural dye color run can not be treated with reducers. To learn to strip rugs on a daily basis the first thing to do is to start working on your rug id skills, then start reading about dyes and how they work.

There has been a lot said about how stripper (sodium hydrosulfite) damages or 'yellows' wool. A popular authority in the rug washing field regularly states that strippers should be avoided because they 'damage wool'. This may be true in inappropriately high concentrations or faulty applications, but is not so when the chemicals are used correctly. It is common practice when dying wool with acid dyes to 'correct' your mistakes by boiling skeins of wool that came out the 'wrong' color in a bath of stripper to remove all dye from the fiber so it can be dyed again in a different shade.

Speaking of boiling wool yarns its worth noting that nearly every piece of yarn in every wool or silk rug we wash has been boiled or simmered in a water bath while it was being dyed. Most rugs we clean have been treated with powerful solutions of oxidizers, reducers, and acids during the production washes that nearly every manufacturer uses to make their rugs look like what consumers want to buy.

I am not suggesting that cleaners can be careless or use inappropriate chemicals and procedures. I do question blanket statements made regularly over the years by experts with agendas. Contentions that oxidizers can't be used on rugs, that warm water is dangerous, and a collection of other do and don't prohibitions, are not necessarily true. The rug producing industry has myriad procedures that run counter to the prevailing wisdom in the rug cleaning business. Rug producers don't like to talk about such things for fear of alarming the buying public, and they usually keep their procedures and formulations 'proprietary'. Learning more about how rugs are made and finished will help any rug cleaner understand the reactions that take place every day on the wash floor.
like there's lanolin in the rug because it's wool. In my opinion, any lanolin has been washed out during the production of the wool fibre before it was ever woven into a rug.
 

cleanking

Member
Joined
Feb 27, 2013
Messages
473
Location
Indianapolis, IN
Name
Jordan King
Ken Snow told me once that for them it was way under 5%. The cost to pre test each rug far outweighed the cost to fix or replace.

Im sure their quick turn around process played part in that low percentage
Also the methods used at their facility generally won't cause a lot of bleeding. Users of wash pits, tanks, and even wash floors will experience probably 10%-20% more bleeding than a Mor plant operation. For us we clean on average 2500 sq ft per week and under 250 sq ft of that cleaning will require some form of color correction (both pre-existing and wash induced color run). A much higher square footage will have visibile color run during the wash but won't require any special treatment, it just isn't attaching itself to lighter color areas. These numbers will vary greatly on the type of rugs your company will regularly clean.

These low percentages of rugs that will have color run issues is one reason why I find pre-testing to be so extremely inefficient. To me it makes so much more sense to just learn a bit more about what to look for in a rug to know if it can potentially be a color run contender or much more importantly how will you fix any color run problems you create.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mikey P

Mikey P

Administrator
Joined
Oct 6, 2006
Messages
112,308
Location
The High Chapperal
That's what I meant, the rugs dont stay wet for long enough..


Plus with Hagopian, they can just just sell/give or swap them a new one from their stores
 
  • Like
Reactions: cleanking

Larry Cobb

Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2006
Messages
5,795
Location
Dallas, Texas USA
Name
Larry Cobb
. . . For us we clean on average 2500 sq ft per week and under 250 sq ft of that cleaning will require some form of color correction (both pre-existing and wash induced color run). A much higher square footage will have visible color run during the wash but won't require any special treatment, it just isn't attaching itself to lighter color areas. These numbers will vary greatly on the type of rugs your company will regularly clean. . . .
These rugs (if identified) would benefit from a Dye Transfer Inhibitor.
It reacts with any loose dye & prevents shifts in background.
Changes to the entire background color are difficult to pick up.
 
Last edited:

sweendogg

Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2008
Messages
3,534
Location
Bloomington, IL 61704
Name
David Sweeney
The problem with that statement Larry is that your assuming all dyes will react equally with your dye transfer inhibitor. How many different dyes have you tested on to make such a statement? And how will rugs with urine issues, pH shifts from improper cleaning or damaged mordants react with your dye transfer inhibitor? Our industry has seen many attempts at dye bleed prevention products but a vast majority only work on a narrow band of the dyes out there. Not to mention it begs the question how will your product react with other commonly used cleaning agents in the wash process?
 

T Monahan

Supportive Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2012
Messages
1,673
Location
Ann Arbor, MI
Name
Tom Monahan
David, you make some relevant observations.

That is why washing in the Centrum Force Star Wash Tub we only attempt to manage the dye bleed into the water at our Area Rug Cleaning Company. Others that have wash tubs do so because we have verified the value of doing so since we introduced it many years ago in 2008. Centrum Force Secret Sauce does just that. It stays effective even when adding a cup of Di-Chlor for water health and a quart or two of our cleaning agent Knock-Out for rug washing. It was just recertified and tested by the WoolSafe Organization to be approved as Wool Safe too.

https://www.centrumforce.com/products/secret-sauce-additive-for-dye-bleed
 

Larry Cobb

Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2006
Messages
5,795
Location
Dallas, Texas USA
Name
Larry Cobb
The problem with that statement Larry is that your assuming all dyes will react equally with your dye transfer inhibitor. How many different dyes have you tested on to make such a statement? And how will rugs with urine issues, pH shifts from improper cleaning or damaged mordants react with your dye transfer inhibitor? Our industry has seen many attempts at dye bleed prevention products but a vast majority only work on a narrow band of the dyes out there. Not to mention it begs the question how will your product react with other commonly used cleaning agents in the wash process?

Our product works by binding to Dyes released in the wash and
keeps them in solution to prevent Dye Color transfer to undyed fiber :
1. Positive charge attraction to Anionic Dyes (acid - most common)
2. Hydrogen Bonding to Direct Dyes (2nd most common)
3. Anti-Redeposition prevents soil in the bath from attaching to fiber
It does slightly prevent dye bleeding.

It is not affected by anionic or nonionic cleaning agents.
 
Last edited:

cleanking

Member
Joined
Feb 27, 2013
Messages
473
Location
Indianapolis, IN
Name
Jordan King


Even on this demo video of Dye Loc, you can see how these products can work, however upon agitating the water it looks like at least 50% of the dye still is able to mix with the water. I would assume a demo like this is a best case scenario, so factor in washing techniques with this product and it may only be able to keep a small percentage of dye truly suspended. This dye managing technology just isn't quite there yet IMO and isn't worth leaving time tested methods of managing color run for most washing operations at this time.
 

T Monahan

Supportive Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2012
Messages
1,673
Location
Ann Arbor, MI
Name
Tom Monahan
At the risk of redundancy, that is precisely why we came to market for wash tub users our product. This is our claim for 8 years:

"Prevents Cross Contamination Of Dyes In The Tub
Secret Sauce is a highly effective dye management additive that has a strong attraction for anionic dyes common to rugs and other textiles that come loose in solution. That’s why it is so important to include this product every time you utilize the Centrum Star Wash Tub with multiple rugs. The gentle action of the paddle wheel provides even distribution throughout the tub to insure the protection you need.

Simply put, Secret Sauce takes a lot of the fear out of washing many rugs together.

Secret Sauce is best used with our micelle infused rug washing soap, Knock-out. Secret Sauce targets all anionic dyes, which bleed out of rugs during the tub washing process.

Inhibits migration of loose dyes
Secret Sauce manages loose dyes found in the water between rugs and limits it's ability to re-deposit on rugs during the wash process. Secret Sauce is your best deterrent against dreaded fugitive dyes!"

Note: When I give demos for the wash tub in my shop, I make sure bleeders are seen by observers going into the swim together with other rugs, followed by being taken out of the tub for examination, rinsed and spun in centrifuge, then inspected.

Summary: The pit washer's realization of time being saved, along with his fear being minimized by this method processing, is expressed by joy on his face. It is a huge relief.

I would hesitate to strip wash in the wash tub any one rug, much less multiple, for fear of not visually discerning the degree of action going on. However, I can see if one was doing so commercially for re-purposing a rug to over-dye later. This and other reasons may be a cause to investigate stripping in the tub further. The paddle wheel tub surely is an effective tool to get a rug completely saturated with water or anything the water is carrying.

See video:
 

Tom Forsythe

Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2006
Messages
486
Jordan, thanks for showing the video of the Dye Loc demonstration and potential dilemma in a pit wash situation. This is why I have advocated extraction as a method to limit bleeding risks. Quick drying also limits the extent of bleeding. Urine soaked rugs are the exception as the urine needs to be removed. Using tools like the rug sucker and centrifuge accelerate drying after a pit wash. In the last class I was involved in teaching, we pit washed a heavy bleeder which took alot of time to correct while it dried. I am convinced if I used the extraction method, the rug would not had any bleeding issues, but it also would not have been as clean. The old adage is to preserve the condition of the rug recognizing that it may not be as clean. Some have alluded to the fact that manufacturers should disclose their proprietary information for the benefit of the industry. My point is that makes as much sense from a business perspective as it would be for a rug washer to share your customer list. If someone feels that they need to know the components of a proprietary product, then they should pay $10,000 to a chemical lab to do an analysis to figure out what is included in the formula. Chemical manufacturers pay a lot more than $10,000 to bring a product to the market.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Cleanworks

Larry Cobb

Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2006
Messages
5,795
Location
Dallas, Texas USA
Name
Larry Cobb
David S.- "How many different dyes have you tested on to make such a statement?"

Here is some technical testing of the ColorLock after washing.
Red Dye Transfer was reduced in the wash to 9% of the control bleeding on white fiber.
DTICL.jpg
 
Last edited:

Larry Cobb

Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2006
Messages
5,795
Location
Dallas, Texas USA
Name
Larry Cobb
Just so we don't get sidetracked, the ReduceAll is our primary remover of dye bleeding.

At less concentration, it also brightens the underlying wool, which in turn brightens the dyed colors.

Enzymes are the newest component for a wash combined with the ReduceAll and ColorLock dye transfer inhibitor.

I'm sending two of these today to Tom to test with his DTI.
 
  • Like
Reactions: T Monahan

Larry Cobb

Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2006
Messages
5,795
Location
Dallas, Texas USA
Name
Larry Cobb
How dyes react to reducers and oxidizers varies from one dye type, or formulation, to another. Acid dyes react quickly to strippers but since their formulations are generally blends of primary colors, each of which can react at a different rate to a reducer, they often 'change' color as they are stripped. Natural dyes don't generally 'strip', though some brighten with the application of a stripper. If anyone thinks natural dyes don't run, think again. Dye bleed in natural dye rugs is common; it usually happens in production washes, but can also occur during regular cleaning as well. Most natural dye color run can not be treated with reducers. To learn to strip rugs on a daily basis the first thing to do is to start working on your rug id skills, then start reading about dyes and how they work.

There has been a lot said about how stripper (sodium hydrosulfite) damages or 'yellows' wool. A popular authority in the rug washing field regularly states that strippers should be avoided because they 'damage wool'. This may be true in inappropriately high concentrations or faulty applications, but is not so when the chemicals are used correctly. It is common practice when dying wool with acid dyes to 'correct' your mistakes by boiling skeins of wool that came out the 'wrong' color in a bath of stripper to remove all dye from the fiber so it can be dyed again in a different shade.

Speaking of boiling wool yarns its worth noting that nearly every piece of yarn in every wool or silk rug we wash has been boiled or simmered in a water bath while it was being dyed. Most rugs we clean have been treated with powerful solutions of oxidizers, reducers, and acids during the production washes that nearly every manufacturer uses to make their rugs look like what consumers want to buy.

I am not suggesting that cleaners can be careless or use inappropriate chemicals and procedures. I do question blanket statements made regularly over the years by experts with agendas. Contentions that oxidizers can't be used on rugs, that warm water is dangerous, and a collection of other do and don't prohibitions, are not necessarily true. The rug producing industry has myriad procedures that run counter to the prevailing wisdom in the rug cleaning business. Rug producers don't like to talk about such things for fear of alarming the buying public, and they usually keep their procedures and formulations 'proprietary'. Learning more about how rugs are made and finished will help any rug cleaner understand the reactions that take place every day on the wash floor.

I agree with your statement on the importance of "Dye determination". Natural dyes can be many different types of dyes. Most common IMO, are "acid dyes" and then "disperse dyes".
As you stated "acid types" react very well to strippers, while "disperse dyes" react well to oxidizers (and UV acceleration).
Overall, I think Reducers cause less damage to the wool fiber, and that is why I think they should be used more often in the rug washing industry.
 

T Monahan

Supportive Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2012
Messages
1,673
Location
Ann Arbor, MI
Name
Tom Monahan
Just so we don't get sidetracked, the ReduceAll is our primary remover of dye bleeding.

At less concentration, it also brightens the underlying wool, which in turn brightens the dyed colors.

Enzymes are the newest component for a wash combined with the ReduceAll and ColorLock dye transfer inhibitor.

I'm sending two of these today to Tom to test with his DTI.

I got the box yesterday afternoon. If okay with you Larry, I will photograph and describe what I am doing with each specimen in the wash tub and thereafter photograph and describe the results with each rug.

Must I do one at a time or would multiple be okay?
 

Latest posts

Back
Top Bottom