Hydramaster goes Electric

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It will certainly work.

However the devil is in the details, and this adds lots of details.

Hydraulics are proven in many vehicle applications too, if properly designed with the right components. Prochem didn't get it right.
 
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The Great Oz

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Hydraulics are proven in many vehicle applications too, if properly designed with the right components. Prochem didn't get it right.
Nor did Steamway before them. In each case the hydraulic debacles nearly undid both companies.

The Hydramaster concept probably won't spray hot electricity all over the interior, so may be the better idea.

PS: GM is selling every van they can build, so have stretched the build plans for the current model to 2019. Since we buy GM's, we're OK with the old shaft drive CDS.
 
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rick imby

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Mytee did nearly the same with their generator off the motor etm. I think they were using engine coolant to preheat the water.

As I understand it, there is very little efficiency loss converting the energy of the motor to electricity and then using electric motors for the blower and an electric pump.

Using the old Bane system of running the engine coolant through the fresh tank and adding a heat exchanger from the blower should produce good heat----Not Kero or Diesel but descent heat. And heat freaks could easily go to fuel heat after the system for a couple of thousand more.

As I recall the High out put generator mounted in the Mytee van was about $7,000.

I think Ford had a prototype van with a powerful generator built into the engine compartment.
 
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rick imby

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I am not an expert but as I understand it the Diesel motors put most of their heat out through the exhaust while more of the heat from gas engines goes out from the coolant. Both engines have approximately the same fuel energy efficiency. So 50 horesepower will put out about the same waste heat with either system. It is just there is significantly more energy in a gallon of Diesel than there is in a gallon of gas.
 

rick imby

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Mechanical to generator, electric to motor, motor to (gasp)pulleys and belts that drive components.
Can you get a 20 hp electric motor with 3000 rpm? Direct drive?

Aren't electric pumps about the same price as mechanical? Why hook up another pulley?
 

tcdepot

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I was at the distributor meeting that this was introduced and ran at. If you have specific questions, please feel free to contact me and I'll be happy to answer them. Too hard to follow the different questions here.

I will say that HydraMaster is expecting this unit to have just as good of performance in terms of heat and vacuum as the CDS 4.8 w/ Salsa Booster.
 

dgardner

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As I understand it, there is very little efficiency loss converting the energy of the motor to electricity and then using electric motors for the blower and an electric pump.
Rick, I believe you lose 20-25 percent each time you do a conversion (rotational to electricity in the genny, electric to rotational in the motor ). I would not consider that exceptionally efficient.
 
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rick imby

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Rick, I believe you lose 20-25 percent each time you do a conversion (rotational to electricity in the genny, electric to rotational in the motor ). I would not consider that exceptionally efficient.

Dan,
But I don't think the big Trucks in Mining and train engines and the Toyota Prius could not sustain that 35-45% level of conversion loss and be affordable to run. I believe most trains now are run by a Diesel engine/generator with electric motors. This may eliminate transmissions and the loss there but like I said, I don't know.

I would believe your 20-25% number is even high for round trip number from mechanical to electrical and back to mechanical.
 

rick imby

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Mike, could you take pictures of the pages and upload them so we can read more than just the headlines? Thanks

This is pretty cool...
 
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Kevin B

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if it's not feasible to put drive shafts in the new vans, maybe we will see the rebirth of hydraulic systems. Instead of a generator running off the engine, you have a hydraulic pump. You run the hoses under the van (no holes in cabin) and attach them to fittings leading to the hydraulic motor on the cleaning unit. Still using the vans engine for heat. The problem with the old hydraulic units is often the hydraulic fluid would over heat. Just need a larger reservoir and maybe running a coolant exchange thru the water box.
Why not just pipe it through another HX and capture it that way :)
 

rick imby

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Here is the only thing I have been able to find on mechanical to electric--electric back to Mechanical conversions.
This is from Wikipedia talking about Diesel/electric locomotives

In diesel-electric and gas turbine-electric locomotives, the horsepower rating of the traction motors is usually around 81% that of the prime mover. This assumes that the electrical generator converts 90% of the engine's output into electrical energy and the traction motors convert 90% of this electrical energy back into mechanical energy. Calculation: 90% Ă— 90% = 81%.
Individual traction motor ratings usually range up 1,600 kW (2,144 hp)
 

dgardner

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Using locomotives as an example is a best case scenario. Very large motors purpose-built for an application can be made more efficient, and this specialized industry has been optimizing their setup for many decades. Electric or hybrid vehicles have literally billions of research dollars behind them to maximize efficiency. I can't imagine Hydramaster has the resources or the time to optimize their setup to that extent, and I imagine their main concern would be more towards reliability and longevity anyway.

You won't find a lot of information on conversion efficiency because there are so many variables. Electric motor's efficiency varies hugely with load - a motor loaded to 40% of its nameplate capacity will be very inefficient compared to one loaded to 80%. Power factor plays a part too. Lee's comment about the details is spot on.

My blanket comment was kind of silly now that I think about it, as the true numbers will vary widely depending on many things.
 

rick imby

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Using locomotives as an example is a best case scenario. Very large motors purpose-built for an application can be made more efficient, and this specialized industry has been optimizing their setup for many decades. Electric or hybrid vehicles have literally billions of research dollars behind them to maximize efficiency. I can't imagine Hydramaster has the resources or the time to optimize their setup to that extent, and I imagine their main concern would be more towards reliability and longevity anyway.

You won't find a lot of information on conversion efficiency because there are so many variables. Electric motor's efficiency varies hugely with load - a motor loaded to 40% of its nameplate capacity will be very inefficient compared to one loaded to 80%. Power factor plays a part too. Lee's comment about the details is spot on.

My blanket comment was kind of silly now that I think about it, as the true numbers will vary widely depending on many things.

Yes I looked hard to find any efficiency ratings, this was all I could find.

Yes I knew the locomotive conversion would be top of the efficiency chart. The Hydramaster design will be simpler in that load will be barely variable . The electric motor efficiency should be near the top of the chart.

The gas motor efficiency will not be near the top of the chart. A V8 motor is probably not very efficient when running with only 25-40 horsepower of load.

If the v8 was efficient at 25-40 load the current direct drives would use about the same fuel as the 25 horsepower lawn mower engines instead of 30 to 60% more.

Dan, It would be interesting to know how close to the 81% Toyota has been able to get with their hybrid. I know a lot of the Prius fuel savings is from recycling energy every time you let off the gas or brake lightly and never idling the engine. Toyota even stores engine heat so warm up time is minimal with the engine.

Also every time you let off the gas for maybe 5 seconds when you are below 35 mph the motor shuts off.

I played with one for 3 weeks, amazing technology.
 

Joe wargo

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Im not sure where this 60% more fuel than a 25 hp lawn mower engine thing comes from.. I hear it a lot.. I believe it is based on old cds tech. I can speak factually as to both.. I have a 2010 4.8 cds with salsa. I also owned a boxxer 427 that used a 27hp briggs. It used 1.6 gallons or more per hour. My cds on medium( single wand speed) uses 1.6 gallons per hour. Its reliabilty is off the charts.. I hope they can get this x drive in the same realm of reliability, because after owning 3 slide ins.. Ill never go back
 
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Chris A

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Agreed, and if there is increased fuel usage over a slide in it's minimal compared to the ease of just parking, hitting the switch and cleaning. My truck never shuts off once it leaves my driveway in the morning
 
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BIG WOOD

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One thing I'm having trouble understanding is, why did they choose a CDS to go electric, when it's designed to be hooked up to the van's engine. Why didn't they choose to use a slide in to be designed as electric?

Is the van's engine going at a much lower RPM or is it completely shut off?

I haven't seen any videos or how this is operated.
 

dgardner

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One thing I'm having trouble understanding is, why did they choose a CDS to go electric, when it's designed to be hooked up to the van's engine. Why didn't they choose to use a slide in to be designed as electric?

Is the van's engine going at a much lower RPM or is it completely shut off?

I haven't seen any videos or how this is operated.

Matt, I imagine the main reason would be the CDS already has the van engine coolant heat exchangers, a slide-in would have an exhaust HX plumbed locally for the slide-in engine. The whole HX arrangement would have to be changed. Also the fuel system components would have to be removed. The CDS arrangement is the starting point that requires fewer modifications.

The van engine runs during operation, turning the generator and providing heat via coolant.

Hydramaster has this video out. There aren't any videos of actual operation yet because it hasn't been released yet, and they are keeping a tight lid on until the big reveal.

 
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dgardner

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Is a 4.8 blower the same or similar to a #47 blower ?
Todd, according to the teaser, the xDrive uses the GD 408 Triflow, rated 502 CFM. A 47 (or 4007 Tri-lobe) is rated about 445. Of course the exact flow of the xDrive will depend on the rpm they run the blower at. I don't know if it's being run at full speed.

The 408 is rated to 16" hg, while the 47 is rated to 15". Again, don't know what vac setting the xDrive runs.
 

BIG WOOD

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Matt, I imagine the main reason would be the CDS already has the van engine coolant heat exchangers, a slide-in would have an exhaust HX plumbed locally for the slide-in engine. The whole HX arrangement would have to be changed. Also the fuel system components would have to be removed. The CDS arrangement is the starting point that requires fewer modifications.

The van engine runs during operation, turning the generator and providing heat via coolant.

Hydramaster has this video out. There aren't any videos of actual operation yet because it hasn't been released yet, and they are keeping a tight lid on until the big reveal.


That confuses me more. If the vans engine runs during operation, what's the need for a generator?
Hydramaster has done an awesome job with their engineering and reliability, so im certain there's a good reason for it
 

dgardner

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Im not sure where this 60% more fuel than a 25 hp lawn mower engine thing comes from.. I hear it a lot.. I believe it is based on old cds tech. I can speak factually as to both.. I have a 2010 4.8 cds with salsa. I also owned a boxxer 427 that used a 27hp briggs. It used 1.6 gallons or more per hour. My cds on medium( single wand speed) uses 1.6 gallons per hour. Its reliabilty is off the charts.. I hope they can get this x drive in the same realm of reliability, because after owning 3 slide ins.. Ill never go back
Hi Joe, welcome to MB!
 

dgardner

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That confuses me more. If the vans engine runs during operation, what's the need for a generator?

Matt, generator head. not this:

Honda-Generator-300x244.jpg


This (not the actual model they use, of course):

Voltmaster-AB30-HYDRO-Generator_Heads-1.jpe


Turned by the van's engine.
 

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