Is a Butler the biggest rip off on the TM market?

[Mikey P]

For $22,995 you get a 45 blower, a cat pump, a shaft drive "system", chem pump, a heat exchanger, fresh and waste tanks,vac and pressure reels and some shelves.


No power source, no van, nada.


for 23Gs! :shock: :shock: :shock:


They will ding you for another 4 to five grand with some extra shelving packages, a high heat option and a filter box.


Although I bought one in 2001, knowing what I know now I should have gotten a slide in for 15 to 20 grand.


For the close to $58 Gs it would cost to put together a primo AB and C package that still has just average heat and suck I feel there are much better deals to be found.








here comes Superken to the rescue...







and no I would not buy a $100 grand Vortex /AT either.

 

[Becker]

They sure are pretty though..

Much like a BMW, even though a Subaru GT beats the pants off the 325xi for a 3rd less.


BMW is more likely to get ya laid though.


Err I mean... ummm never mind.

 

[Shawn Forsythe]

They are known for good customer service. If you can get the customer to fund it up front, you make your market segment smile.

 

[Mikey P]

Since Jack retired I hear that legendary customer service ain't so hot any more.

 

[joe harper]

You have that much in your Lawn Mower eNginE....."right"... :mrgreen:

 

[Mikey P]

huh?

 

[Becker]

Honestly though.. Is any TM manufacture selling machines at any pace as there were 3 years ago.

I'm sure a lot of manufactures are working on a skeleton crew and customer service is swirling down the bowl.

Much like in a deer herd, The strong will survive.

 

[Mikey P]

Freddy Boyle sits on *** and clicks the Butler banner all night long in hopes that tre will recognize him as an Industry Leader.

 

[Jim Morrison]

$22,995 is chump change. 2 1/2 years ago a Cleanco was over 30. What happened to the "I'd take a used pto over a new slide in any day" guy?

 

[rhyde]

they seem to have a loyal following and i don't hear lots of complaints....that says something.


Mikey are you pissed they won't buy a banner on this shit hole site ..?

 

[Ron Werner]

but why do you need a 100-200hp engine to turn a blower than only needs 30-40 max?

 

[The Great Oz]

That's one of the differences in reliability. A PTO at slightly above idle is making the same HP as a typical slide in running flat out.

 

[Mikey P]

yeah but a new motor on a Slide In costs 2 grand.



How much is a new tranny or fuel pump on a GMC these days?

 

[Art Kelley]

yeah but a new motor on a Slide In costs 2 grand.



How much is a new tranny or fuel pump on a GMC these days?

Since when did you become such a broke dick? Running a lawn mower motor inside your van is just a miserable way to operate with the heat and the smell and the soot. Repairs and replacements of hoses belts and components will be a constant headache if you use your Judson every day, and a rare occurance in a Butler. It's just so much cleaner and more reliable than a slide in. you'll catch up to the Butler cost in 7 years with repairs and job cancellations.

 

[Mikey P]

Listen Kelly, don't rain on my Broke Dick Parade.

Once I mount an Airpath to my van's ceiling it will be cool as a cucumber in there.






and the answer is no in regards to the Butler being the biggest rip off.


The biggest rip off is a VAT bought by a chump who will never dual with it.

 

[randy]

I think Mike is making some valid points here and as typical calling as he sees it. Slide ins have gotten a lot better and really not gone up much (relative to the huge increases in the PTO options). I remember when a Butler was $14,995 and options 123 totalled $995.00. They have continually increased their price to where it isn't the value it once was, regardless of the "quality". You see some chemical makers pulling the same thing. Raising prices even in years where you have zero growth in the market and even mild deflation. That will stop soon or certain manufacturers will have hell to pay in brand erosion. It has happened in other industries and we are not immune, regardless of how great you think your juice is. Right now one "major brand" of juice is losing out to a few Judsons come lately and I don't think they even realize it. Keep jacking up the price sheets to cover your poor management decisions and become a favorite juice of yesterday.

I also see a bunch of crappy truck mount makers FROM TEXAS disappearing over the next few years. Companies like Chemtex can't keep getting over on newbies in the internet age. A back page spread in a magazine almost no one reads won't cut it when every board out there has bad feed back on their equipment from actual rape victims.

Talk to any distributor and they will tell you that guys are buying much smaller units now. The day of a newbie walking in and financing a $50-$100,000 rig through any of a zillion lease companies is over. Many experienced cleaners can't afford / or qualify to replace what they run now, and will run current equipment much longer. The folks with less then stellar credit can forget financing or leasing without huge down payments. The vast majority of small, independent cleaners really don't know their actual cost to clean. Many ,when you really look at their operation aren't even making the cost of capital. That's why the turn in this industry is so huge, normally 25% of carpet cleaning companies disappear every year. Right now you will find that figure to be much higher. Grab last years yellow pages and call a few dozen.

I think Mike made a great decision in getting the Judson and will do very well with it. Bottom line: the guy with the most expensive equipment doesn't necessarily win. The guy that KNOWS his numbers, gross margin, overhead per operational hour (actual cleaning time) in relation to revenue generated, and with relative lower fixed cost will be OK regardless of whether he runs a $109,000 big truck or a $2,100 M-5 in the back of a ten year old Astro van.

 

[Ken Snow]

I agree Randy and would only add that Butlers do make sense to us for so many reasons some of which Art mentioned and others. They also have an incredible resale value of almost 60% after 6 years so that 60,000$ unit (rounded up) bought today will bring back about $36,000 after 5 years and 1.25 million or more in revenue generation.

Ken

 

[Ed]

Butler is a great unit. I feel they've gotten a little pricey over the past couple of years, but I don't run their company so I don't know what they need to sell them for. The $23,000 DOES NOT include the fresh water tank, reels, or shelving, that's another $3,000, so it's more like $26,000 for the base unit. It still represents a FAR beter value than a Vortex for $110,000. I don't care HOW many wands you run, that there's STUPIT! And what I've found, after buying a used Vortex is that I'm quite convinced that the V is just too much technology for the average carpet cleaner. Guys who are used to operating and maintaining a gasoline van, just don't do well with the diesel engine. It's more expensive and very different. I can see why so many broke dicks blow their life savings/credit buying one of these beasts new, only to find that the only difference before and after buying a vortex is that they now have a whole lot less money in their bank account each month and they don't have the money to maintain or fix the damn thing. So they let it go until it(and they) just gets too broke and they sell it to an a-hole like me, so I can spend MY money fixing the POS! But it is one hell of a squirter/sucker.

 

[Steve Lawrence]

If you mostly run one wand the Butler has plenty of heat and suck. You probably do have to be a little better technician than a V or AT owner to get similar results, though.

Plus it fits in my garage and isn't noisier than a freight train.

 

[ronald pantelas]

The Butler truckmount is like a Honda or a Toyota. Once you buy one/ or have one you see the value in the truck/service they provide. I can only say I have been treated great! I can not turn a wrench very well. So for me it is a blessing. The very thought of this thread is sickening to the industry. What a bunch of mis information. The poster must just want action on the board. Like a good newspaper man. Sells copy I guess! Here is the thing, if you buy a butler truckmount. Of course you pay more, but guess what they will be there to help you in the future. Yes you need to follow their rules, buy their replacement parts, etc. Send in their warranty books yearly. So what, thats what they do, and pretty good I might add. The warranty and maintenance books they provide help me keeping the mount perfect. I have a little under a thousand hours on my mount, which I bought in 2007. People who buy a butler truckmount with all the bells(high heat,larger vac) are a pretty satisfied group I can tell you. Can you imagine another maker with more mounts on the road. So you pay more, yes you could be right! Do we not pay more for certain chemicals, certain glides, certain wands, tools, etc. I have a Butler truckmount, I use prochem chemicals, use a greenhorn wand, use a greenglide. I Like the very best and willing to pay to get it. Most suppliers love me for that! (ha,ha) Ron

 

[Lyman]

I got mine 6 months ago. I don't think the price is out of line. 56k out the door. A new van(5 year-100000 mile waranty), 240-250 heat all day, 2.5 real (live or not), 3 speeds-you choose, 120 gallon fresh and grey water tanks, shelves, proffesional installation, 150 foot of both hoses, 25 water supply hose, crappy wand free, dry times in the 1-3 hour range. In five years I get 50% on trade in. Unlimited miles and hours.

 

[ruff]

Any honest distributor will tell you that all the power take off manufacturer's like butler or Hydramaster CDs has a much much better margin of profit.
There is a lot less machine that they are actually building.

I wonder if the distributors are also getting a higher commission as the margin of profit are so much higher.

These machines though are very dependable and work very well with employees.

 

[Mikey P]

that I'm quite convinced that the V is just too much technology for the average carpet cleaner

Marty is living proof of that wise statement.


btw, I had one of those bargain 15G's Butler.


another 8k for the exact same technology and materials is ludicrous.

 

[Hoody]

Oh yeah... I use one of those 8k steam genies that bobby v builds, and it ran for 20 years or better and in and out of 3 vans!

 

[Guest]

http://cgi.ebay.com/STOP-Before-You-Buy ... 439b1ca6c6

 

[Numero Uno]

well it aint 1979 anymore they cost 9800,with van about same...

But as in anything.All manufacturer's raised there prices when Vortex came out,it was a given they saw that one could charge more why not all...

But Jack is doin fine saw him last week...

 

[Wandslinger]

I think MP is bringing up this topic because be continues to be impressed with his Lunchpail and realizes that you only need Heat, Suck and Reliability. That Lunchpail is having an impact.

 

[SRI Cleaning]

Lars from metallica is teaching people how to clean carpets now!!!???

 

[Mark Saiger]

We have had a number of Butlers and they have gone a long time and been very profitable for us. We also do like the performance especially with the new 2.5 hose and reel as well as the high heat.

I do have to say that we do have a 1993 Butler in a GMC that has over 240,000 miles and over 11,000 hours that one of my friends has been using as a start up machine for himself. It is on the original drive train and is still not taking oil or leaking. Now the body is another issue. Just keep patching it up and making it look clean.

We service our Butlers very religiously. Have changed the oil every 1000 miles for the most part and after about 50,000 miles, we switch over to Rotela T 15w-40. I know it is the same as diesel motors are to use, but it works great for us and has great lubricating properties. You don't want to switch over too early though so all the your motor seals properly set. Anyway, never had a Vortex and I am sure I would enjoy running one. It just won't work for me in the fridgid temps of Northern Minnesota.

Mark Saiger

 

[TimP]

In all fairness butler makes things super easy to work on with all the quick connect fittings and diagrams all in the machine. You're paying for that too.


However after running a PTO machine for a few years I can say I'm not interested in buying another. A butler may be better than a CDS I can't say because I don't own a butler. But the performance isn't very impressive to me. If the machine was powered by something that could transfer more power than an AC clutch and operate the machine at max capacity it would make more sense.

Then there is the fact that you're wearing out your engine in your van running the machine. I know they last a long time like this but the heat works on components that you have to replace often. O2 sensors being one of the problems, I've been lucky that I haven't replaced one yet but I've had the check engine light on a few times. I've had to replace a starter. Plus the engine starts to over heat during the summer heat and it's near impossible to cool the van off after a job w/o over heating the engine.

I want something that I can keep for a long while. Move to another van later on and that will last for years. I believe a Judson fits the bill for what I want in longevity. However I want a dual wand machine for 2-3 months of the year and a few jobs in between. And I also don't want to buy propane. So there isn't a machine out there right now that fits all my wants and needs.