Is a Butler the biggest rip off on the TM market?

[davegillfishing]

having owned and run several different machines i will never own anything other than a butler. i get all the heat and suck i need..
ease of use and maint for employees is huge, reliability is huge and looks are awesome.
yep i get lots of customers that are impressed with the looks and layout of the rig.
i love it and as said in the past..give me any other rig and i will sell it and buy another butler..

 

[Greg Cole]

Butler is the mercedes of truckmounts. Sure - a toyota will get you there but it is not a mercedes. If you can afford one- get one. You won't regret it and you won't want anything else..

 

[John Buxton]

The units are over priced, always have been. But most of us dont have the ability to build our own, except Bob.

 

[Mikey P]

Greg Cole.


Have you ever used or owned a Butler?



I did and would never buy another.

 

[randy]

I agree Randy and would only add that Butlers do make sense to us for so many reasons some of which Art mentioned and others. They also have an incredible resale value of almost 60% after 6 years so that 60,000$ unit (rounded up) bought today will bring back about $36,000 after 5 years and 1.25 million or more in revenue generation.

Ken

Resale value of a Butler is a definite plus, but I don't see it continuing. I think the days of a 5 year old Butler with 4-5,000 hours or more selling for $36,000 has passed. Right now there is a 2007 Butler with only 2100 hours/53,000 on TMF right now for $34,000 and they are now taking offers. Perhaps the used truck mount market will bounce back but I believe it will take a few years (3-5 in my opinion).

For a large operation with a low per hour operating/overhead cost (as compared to a owner operator with a relatively high per hour operating cost) resale value probably isn't as much of a factor.

 

[Jose Smith]

I love my Butler. I can't imagine ever wanting to buy anything different in the future.

Jose Smith

 

[Ken Snow]

I hear that Randy, though I am not talking about 2 year old units as the one on TMF is. I sell 3-8 a year and every year I have sold them before they were ready to be delivered. I am fortunate that we have solid repeat buyers and they are completely reconditioned inside and out and repainted back to factory white or any color a buyer wants if sold before painting. I anticipate the price continuing to go up as the years go by.

 

[hogjowl]

I realize this is a Butler thread, but I have to respond to the Vortex statements here. In my opinion, everyone who said that the Vortex is a waste of money if you are a single wand cleaner is correct. I mostly single wand and feel the same way. I would never have know that if I had not experienced it for myself. However, on those occasions where I DO dual wand, the Vortex is absolutely amazing.

 

[Ken Snow]

Cool Marty- we can dual with our butlers no prob too, esp when doing carpet and upholstery at the same home. For commercial when dual is desired we usually send two butlers so they can access from 2 points, rather than dualing off of one.

 

[hogjowl]

Are you flexing in the mirror right now?

 

[Ken Snow]

LOL

 

[joe harper]

The Butler IS a dual wand system....

Here is a SET-UP...to maximize that feature...

1. Connect a 2.5" vac hose directly to the tank...(only 2' in length)
2. Attach a 2.5" stainless "Y"...to the 2ft "jumper" hose....
3. Then attach two 25' lengths of 2.5"...vac hoses...
4. Then reduce to the standard 2" hose....
5. Adjust the "High idle"....air control under the hood...untill it runs in the RED.."MACH TWO"
6. Crank you pump pressure UP to 600 to 700 PSI....

NOTE: you must have the 5.8 blower.."actually 4007 md"..

CAUTION..!!!!! At least 50ft of vac hoses..MUST...be set-up..PRIOR to starting the system !!


If the blower does NOT have some back-pressure on it...It WILL over-REV...the system... :!:
The higher RPM will also maintain some of the heat loss...

 

[Mikey P]

I would never have know that if I had not experienced it for myself.

JHC Marty you dumb apple


how many times have I said that over the years?



you really are prime TMF material.

 

[Greenie]

I can clearly see the "definition" of dual wand is vastly different in this thread.

I'll throw out a common request that i get from my customers seeking a dual wand machine.

Ability to run 200' per man with respectable vacuum, most likely utilizing a 2.5" connection and at least One length of 2.5" hose, they would require 200 degrees with 2 full size wands (uph. tools would be omitted), and these days those wands would have a minimum flow of 09-10. No more 04 and 06 flow wands. That is a Lot of BTUs to heat 3gpm.

You would also need tank capacities and possibly APO to support that on a 4 hour job.

 

[hogjowl]

I can see there really is a difference in what different folks consider a dual wand system, as Green Bean says. When you can have two 200 foot hose runs out and accidentally leave the dump valve open, and not notice the loss in vacuum, then THAT is a dual wand system.

Mikey:
I get thanked for my posts all the time over there.

 

[Mikey P]

I'm sure your bald spot will be filled in in no time at all by participating there.



btw, Jimmy kicked you out of his room.

 

[Greenie]

I can see there really is a difference in what different folks consider a dual wand system, as Green Bean says. When you can have two 200 foot hose runs out and accidentally leave the dump valve open, and not notice the loss in vacuum, then THAT is a dual wand system

That is a good example of Mechanical advantage, same kind of deal with 2.5" hose, it'll help a half-retarded tech do better work, as will some high heat, and some high flow...and a glide...and a really well designed wand and on and on and on.

Now the tech point (you knew this was coming)

I think it's only fair to point out in Marty's example, you would encounter that excess vacuum scenario while running 2" hose for each man off of a #6 blower running at 2/3 speed and making 550-600 cfm. The dump hose and 1.5" choke point would be nominal, it just serves as the vacuum relief at that point since 2 x 2" hoses is extremly under rated for the performance of said blower.

It's what I call Air to Spare.

If you had 2 x 2.5" hoses and an open dump it would be a different animal, since you can actually use every last cfm you are generating, you no longer have Air to Spare, and a dump valve being open would show that quickly. It's so much more noticeable, Operator A can actually tell (maybe for the first time since converting to 2.5) when operator B raises his wand or leaves a wand down for a min.

 

[Jim Martin]

the only time that any type of dual wanding would come in is you are doing anything over 1100 to 1200 sqft..............aside from that most homes are just not worth dragging in 2 separate hoses and tripping all over each other.....I put someone on my truck for a month to try this out and really..... all it did was save me enough time to add one more job a day to my schedule....and when the busy time hits and I am doing 5 a day..I really have no desire to to 6.....this is not enough time to justify paying someone to be in my way.........Now ...when I did my dealer ships and I had the CDS..one of them would take me 11.5 hours to do....when I did it with the Vortex and dual wand the place it was cut down to some where around 8 hours....so when you get into situations like that then it is well worth the time and the effort....

the best time that was saved when I had someone with me was the pre vac while I set up the truck......I would spray the first room and after they were done vacuuming then they would take the sprayer and do the ones ahead of me and then go back and groom as I was finished.....and that was a lot faster then dragging in 2 wands and all the hoses everywhere......

 

[Ken Snow]

$12.00 a day is only $0.50 an hour or $.00833 a minute

or $4380.00 a year

 

[Greenie]

So....Ken, are you saying for .50 more an hour you could double your profit margin on commercial jobs and big resi jobs?

Looking at Marty's V it appears a 5 yr. old Vortex sells for 50% of new as well.

 

[Ken Snow]

Good point, though we do have about 33 purple rolling billboards, a 4 of which are 14-15 foot box trucks and the rest vans & 3 PT Cruisers and Chevy HHRs. For sure the Vortex box truck is larger.

 

[randy]

I hear that Randy, though I am not talking about 2 year old units as the one on TMF is. I sell 3-8 a year and every year I have sold them before they were ready to be delivered. I am fortunate that we have solid repeat buyers and they are completely reconditioned inside and out and repainted back to factory white or any color a buyer wants if sold before painting. I anticipate the price continuing to go up as the years go by.

Buyers probably see a outfit like yours as having a much better maintenance program in place, which makes since. I have seen owner operator rigs that are 3 years old and look like they went through a natural disaster. Once a cleaner told me he changes his oil once a year because he runs Amsoil. I don't think I would want that truckmount.

How are the HHRs holding up, do you like them overall ?

 

[Ken Snow]

I would have to seriously think about that, but I'm pretty sure the answer would be no. Also we are talking about the incremnetal value assuming there is a slight additional benefit if having the larger billboard. There would also be great additional cost in storing units that size not to mention the increased maintennce costs for unit and vehicle. Lastly I am not sure but I believe they are put into "forgien" vehicles, which I would not be able to do.

 

[Chris A]

I would have to seriously think about that, but I'm pretty sure the answer would be no. Also we are talking about the incremnetal value assuming there is a slight additional benefit if having the larger billboard. There would also be great additional cost in storing units that size not to mention the increased maintennce costs for unit and vehicle. Lastly I am not sure but I believe they are put into "forgien" vehicles, which I would not be able to do.

Isuzu NPR=GMC w4500, same truck... different badges. Forgien, LMAO!

 

[randy]

I would have to seriously think about that, but I'm pretty sure the answer would be no. Also we are talking about the incremental value assuming there is a slight additional benefit if having the larger billboard. There would also be great additional cost in storing units that size not to mention the increased maintenance costs for unit and vehicle. Lastly I am not sure but I believe they are put into "foreign" vehicles, which I would not be able to do.

Ken I think you would really "standout" among your compeatitors in DETROIT driving around in foreign van. Isn't that what all our industry marketing experts say, " standout among your competition" . LOL

 

[Mikey P]

I spent a week in the Detroit area a few years back


I saw one Toyota and two Hondas the whole time I was there.

 

[Jimbo]

Butler tm's are really nice to send employees out with...none better!

















"everyone who said that the Vortex is a waste of money if you are a single wand cleaner is correct."







Marty. i guarantee you will be let down with your next tm...after cleaning with the V...

 

[Ron Werner]

Running a lawn mower motor inside your van is just a miserable way to operate with the heat and the smell and the soot. Repairs and replacements of hoses belts and components will be a constant headache if you use your Judson every day, and a rare occurance in a Butler. It's just so much cleaner and more reliable than a slide in. you'll catch up to the Butler cost in 7 years with repairs and job cancellations.

Mine runs on propane, no smell, no soot.
Use it almost every day, 600+hrs and no belt changes, only part replaced was a bushing, 5 minutes.
I don't care what else the motor is used for, it drives the blower and pump efficiently.

Nate mentioned the big blocks idle speed is the same as the small block at full rpm.
BUT PTO's run at 2000rpm, not idle. Need that big engine to generate the heat.

 

[Mikey P]

No smell or soot here either.


and a roof fan is on it's way to address the heat issue.


Greenie cleaned with it all day Saturday and thought I was nuts fro even bring up the noise issue.
He is right by all intent and purposes, the Lunchpail is not what you'd call a loud truckmount.

 

[Ken Snow]

HHR is much nicer than the PT Cruisers. Holding up real well.