Is pre-spraying overrated

[Lee Stockwell]

Exactly the same thing Chris??

The cleaning agents left behind will help the carpets clean the soles of passing shoes.

 

[Ron Werner]

[quote="Ron Werner":3frjry05]try washing your hair with soapy water and rinsing with the same solution

Not even close to the same thing...[/quote:3frjry05]
Most people will at the very least use a fresh water rinse

 

[Loren Egland]

the guy I bought my business from never used prespray and said it was just a gimmick from the chem manufactures to spend more money. He put something down but it might have been a deodorizer, he said it was resolve. Kept it in plain unmarked jugs.. secret.. deuche bag.

He used a fresh water rinse. No emulsifier although he did give me a half used pail of SteamWay Formula A.

He had plenty of heat with the Powermatic so I don't know if a plain ultra hot water rinse is just as good as using prespay/no emulsifier or no prespary/only emulsifier to clean.

Maybe Daniel is onto something. I use both but I've wondered if maybe the former owner was onto something.

Back in the old days, the one step method was often used by me and others. Look at the last 4 pictures in the bottom row here: http://www.northlandakitas.com/delta/gallery.htm . These were all cleaned with a Powermatic running Steam Way Formula A without any prespray.

I now use a hydroforce to apply prespray, but I still rinse with Formula A on most (not all) jobs. 42 years of use gives me confidence that it doesn't leave a soil attracting type of residue (actually helps attract the prespray and rinse it away), doesn't cause my equipment undue problems, doesn't cause harm to synthetic carpet fibers, and have not had complaints from customers after cleaning with it. Doesn't seem to bother me in any way either.

It also cleans very well. Is the best clean is the most green?

 

[Chris A]

Not when most detergents are designed to break up and vacuum out over time. Has anyone ever seen a recoiling issue caused by a cleaner using detergents that actually did the job right? Like took his time with the wand, did dry strokes, etc. ?

 

[Lee Stockwell]

You believe the chem sales hype? Think about it:

On one hand the product is supposed to be strong enough to blast out stains and dirt with only fractions of a second dwell time.

On the other hand the very same product suddenly becomes benign, no longer removing soil (from shoes, the main source of traffic soil), and as the spiel goes: "resists further soiling".

Forty years ago this was the allure of Blue Lustre and our industry's snakeoil purveyors of so-called "dry foam shampoos".

 

[Chris A]

I don't necessarily believe anything, just base my observations on what I see. I don't use a tm detergent now, I rinse with a soapfree product, but when I did, I never noticed an issue or any backlash from custys

 

[Becker]

[quote:2j5k24aw] Is pre-spraying overrated

[/quote:2j5k24aw]

NO

 

[daniel@procarpet]

So we have concluded that even lightly soiled carpets need prespray.

 

[Lee Stockwell]

Lightly soiled carpet merits a light prespray. Because you are prespraying you can do just that, while hitting other areas more.

The result you wish is a clean carpet without either residual soil...or cleaning agents.

 

[ruff]

Only half as many years in the business as Lee

Yet long enough to observe with certainty including many tests in my home:
No difference whatsoever in re soiling between pre-spray + acid rinse and using in line emulsifier alone.
100% no difference. Actually in line alone fared slightly better.

Ease of cleaning, saving time etc; now these are completely different issues.

The alkaline detergents that some call rinses here, are still in line alkaline detergent. No matter what marketing nickname they are given.

Lee may need to check the kind of shampoo he's getting at Wally's

 

[Lee Stockwell]

...Yet long enough to observe with certainty including many tests in my home:
No difference whatsoever in re soiling between pre-spray + acid rinse and using in line emulsifier alone.
100% no difference. Actually in line alone fared slightly better.

Ease of cleaning, saving time etc; now these are completely different issues.

The alkaline detergents that some call rinses here, are still in line alkaline detergent. No matter what marketing nickname they are given.

Lee may need to check the kind of shampoo he's getting at Wally's

I don't use either of the chemicals you noted you have used as "rinse" agents, thus your testing probably is irrelevant to the way we clean.

Just about any cleaning agent works better pre-applied because of the dwell time advantage and the ability to selectively prespray. In addition you usually need about half as much versus recommended solution line mixes to clean a given area.

However I will admit the boys inline several of their monthly restaurant accounts now to save some time and insure they don't skip a cleaning. When clear-rinsing some accounts would say "let's go another month, it doesn't look bad yet". Jason fixed that.

Thanks,
Lee

 

[juniorc82]

Pre Spray = Shot of TLC + Shot of Citrus + Scoup of OSR ( if I have to get gangsta..)

I let it sit for a some time while i set up...

Then I rinse with Liquid One Clean..2oz/5 gallons
Sometimes I have to use the upholstery tool on a few stains or at the doorways to rooms.

Sofa's..pre spray only cushions and arms..the rest will just rinse off.

Rugs is a different story..
Do you have to scrub using a 100 psi machine? I busted out an old porty the other day that was only 150psi and I was ready to toss it out the window by the time I was done
But I pre spray every time..most things just come right off where in the beginning I would have to formula 90 nuke everything and pray i didnt fry something to get less results than this process.
Iseeru

 

[Studebaker]

Pre spray every job. Normally fresh water rinse but on some a light solution runs through the system.

 

[Mikey P]

yep, every job and ever sq ft


Still playing with rinses after all these years..

 

[ruff]

[quote="Ofer Kolton":2avsam9k]...Yet long enough to observe with certainty including many tests in my home:
No difference whatsoever in re soiling between pre-spray + acid rinse and using in line emulsifier alone.
100% no difference. Actually in line alone fared slightly better.

Ease of cleaning, saving time etc; now these are completely different issues.

The alkaline detergents that some call rinses here, are still in line alkaline detergent. No matter what marketing nickname they are given.

Lee may need to check the kind of shampoo he's getting at Wally's

I don't use either of the chemicals you noted you have used as "rinse" agents, thus your testing probably is irrelevant to the way we clean.

Just about any cleaning agent works better pre-applied because of the dwell time advantage and the ability to selectively prespray. In addition you usually need about half as much versus recommended solution line mixes to clean a given area.

Thanks,
Lee[/quote:2avsam9k]

:?: :?: :?: :?:
I know my advanced age and multiple chemical exposure increased my early dementia, Lee.
So help me out please. Which rinsing agents did I mention?

As far as your analogy, it is not correct. There is no proven proof, I am aware of, that the 1/2 amount you are using as pre spray will actually rinse out better.
Chances are it will not, which is my experience. In addition half as much a pre spray, still constitutes an actual increase (not decrease) in chemical actually being put into the carpet.
Your observation though valuable is far from a proof.

The time/chemical strength/heat/agitation pie is correct but not to the point, as discussed in my post.

 

[Lee Stockwell]

For each 100sqft I use half the chemical.

That mist of cleaning agent works for about 15 minute, versus being extracted as soon as it hits.

It is flushed out with hot chemical-free water. Your test involved adding MORE chemicals at that point*.


Of course I leave less behind.

*(you mentioned both acid rinse and alkaline rinse/detergents)

 

[kingjoelking]

If Dry Slurry works so well as an emulsifier that you dont even have to prespray, Why not use it as a prespray and then rinse with straight water?

 

[tracywalker]

I use to get a product called Clean-it that did a fine job as a one step product. Now I find that any decent prepray applied before I bring in the hoses will clean just fine with clear hot water. I cannot see that rinse only really saved any time.

 

[Willy P]

Um - Let me wade in here-

ARE YOU GUYS FREAKING NUTS?

I'll use 10 to 15 gallons of water to clean the average 2 br condo, say 700 to 800 sf (two 1101.5 jets), usually recovering 80%. So that leaves behind how much "residue"? Just about diddly squat, and being a powder, little to NONE.BUT you still get cleaning action with your extraction, unlike a fresh water rinse that loses effectiveness once the initial burst of prespray rinses.

Take your favourite prespray, soak down a car mat and rinse it with a garden hose. See how long and hard you have to rinse until it stops foaming? It should rinse easier with cool water.....

I'm ancient and remember when "prespray" was traffic lane cleaner- and that's exactly where I use it. My emulsifier does the rest.

 

[Lee Stockwell]

Fortunately my TM is nothing like using a cold water hose. Ten flow 500psi (with the wand keyed) is amazing.

 

[Willy P]

But what about that residue red herring? And try to rinse it with your wand - same thing.

 

[Lee Stockwell]

Willy you didn't say how much water/emulsifier you'd use on that 800sf. You'd leave 20% of that.


If I were using a portable I'd feel prespraying was even MORE important in the TAC(Time) pie.

 

[Ken Snow]

He said 10-15 gallons leaving 20% which I believe is high, probably more like 8-10%

 

[ruff]

For each 100sqft I use half the chemical.

That mist of cleaning agent works for about 15 minute, versus being extracted as soon as it hits.

It is flushed out with hot chemical-free water. Your test involved adding MORE chemicals at that point*.


Of course I leave less behind.

*(you mentioned both acid rinse and alkaline rinse/detergents)

Pay attention Lee.
My many tests were: Cleaning with just a detergent in line like Procyon versus Traffic lane cleaner followed by an acid rinse. (alkaline rinses are still in line cleaner.)
Cleaning with just Procyon in line (or Soap Free or any well formulated alkaline cleaner) re-soiled at the exact same rate as the traffic lane cleaner followed by an acid rinse.
No difference in re-soiling. Actually the pre-spray + rinse re-soiled slightly faster.

Those were my results, may not be universally conclusive.
Did you actually try one versus the other in the same traffic areas (as I did several times in my home) and reach a different conclusion?


As Wily says, in line cleaner leaves hardly any residue and it does not cause any re-soiling.
As a matter of fact in my experience it rinses out better than most traffic lane cleaners and there are less re-appearing stains.

If Dry Slurry works so well as an emulsifier that you dont even have to prespray, Why not use it as a prespray and then rinse with straight water?

I guess that would work. It will slow the process and I guess will accomplish a small reduction in residue which may be negligible. Also, these in line detergents are not formulated as traffic lane cleaners (for long dwell time, penetrating agents etc.).
The question is: How much effort and time is it worth to achieve a very slight reduction in residue?
And if one rinse does better, how about 2 rinses, 3 ......?
It may very well be under the law of diminishing return.

 

[Lee Stockwell]

[quote="Lee Stockwell":3m7f7a40]For each 100sqft I use half the chemical.

That mist of cleaning agent works for about 15 minute, versus being extracted as soon as it hits.

It is flushed out with hot chemical-free water. Your test involved adding MORE chemicals at that point*.


Of course I leave less behind.

*(you mentioned both acid rinse and alkaline rinse/detergents)

Pay attention Lee.
My many tests were: Cleaning with just a detergent in line like Procyon versus Traffic lane cleaner followed by an acid rinse. (alkaline rinses are still in line cleaner.)
Cleaning with just Procyon in line (or Soap Free or any well formulated alkaline cleaner) re-soiled at the exact same rate as the traffic lane cleaner followed by an acid rinse.
No difference in re-soiling. Actually the pre-spray + rinse re-soiled slightly faster.

Those were my results, may not be universally conclusive.
Did you actually try one versus the other in the same traffic areas (as I did several times in my home) and reach a different conclusion?


As Wily says, in line cleaner leaves hardly any residue and it does not cause any re-soiling.
As a matter of fact in my experience it rinses out better than most traffic lane cleaners and there are less re-appearing stains.

If Dry Slurry works so well as an emulsifier that you dont even have to prespray, Why not use it as a prespray and then rinse with straight water?

I guess that would work. It will slow the process and I guess will accomplish a small reduction in residue which may be negligible. Also, these in line detergents are not formulated as traffic lane cleaners (for long dwell time, penetrating agents etc.).
The question is: How much effort and time is it worth to achieve a very slight reduction in residue. It may very well be under the law of diminishing return.[/quote:3m7f7a40]

It seems you are mixed on your results, neither of which reflect our practice.

On the same restaurants (Wendys Applebees Ryans Pizza Hut) from month to month we noted striking differences in resoil rates.

Thanks,
Lee

 

[ruff]

Not conflicted at all.
Just different than yours.
All your examples are restaurants which hardly relates to the normal home.

You should use a pre-spray in restaurants.
And the re-soiling in your restaurants is likely to be related to leaving a lot of cooking oil and protein residue in the carpet (cleaning without enzyme pre-spray will do that to you) and not at all due to detergent residue.
In other words, the carpet was not really clean.

Most homes (at least my clients- thank god) are not left with this kind of soil.
And the areas that are, I pre-spray. The rest does not need it.

 

[Willy P]

I'm taking my camera to work today to show how well cleaning works with just an emulsifier.
Pictures at 11 !gotcha!

 

[Desk Jockey]

I'm taking my camera to work today to show how well cleaning works with just an emulsifier.
Pictures at 11 !gotcha!

Yea but Willy you're using a portable!

Cleaningresent participle of clean (Verb)
Verb:
Make (something or someone) free of dirt, marks, or mess, esp. by washing, wiping, or brushing, portable carpet cleaning NOT to be included in the definition of cleaning. Remove the innards of (fish or poultry) prior to cooking.

 

[Lee Stockwell]

The restaurants I noted resoiled LESS with our normal prespray routine. I agree with you, YES they were cleaner than when using your inline chemical method.

However the boys like them to stay on the more frequent schedule that was agreed.


Different strokes...

 

[ruff]

I'm taking my camera to work today to show how well cleaning works with just an emulsifier.
Pictures at 11 !gotcha!

Yea but Willy you're using a portable!

[quote:3dkpyjyf]Cleaningresent participle of clean (Verb)
Verb:
Make (something or someone) free of dirt, marks, or mess, esp. by washing, wiping, or brushing, portable carpet cleaning NOT to be included in the definition of cleaning. Remove the innards of (fish or poultry) prior to cooking.

[/quote:3dkpyjyf]

Hey Alfalfa...
Have you considered switching to oatmeal or at least orchard grass?

And what do restoration companies know about "clean."
And I am not talking about cleaning pockets