Judson C4 Fuel savings.

[Mike Draper]

I love my C4. Let me give you an idea on fuel savings. I live right next to the mountain water storage tank. The water that goes into my fresh tank is between 39-43 degrees depending on the time of the year, so my little giant is working hard. I run a 12 flow TI wand at 2 gallons per minute. over the last 120 hours I've put on my C4 I have calculated my propane usage at exactly 1.9-2.0 gallons per hour total usage. I run the c4 at high rpm's and highest heat always. I'm paying $1.89 gallon for propane. To get the performance I have at a fuel cost of close to $1.89 an hour is awesome. This means I've only spent $226.00 on fuel to run my C4 since my purchase. Awesome :!:

 

[Art Kelley]

I love my C4. Let me give you an idea on fuel savings. I live right next to the mountain water storage tank. The water that goes into my fresh tank is between 39-43 degrees depending on the time of the year, so my little giant is working hard. I run a 12 flow TI wand at 2 gallons per minute. over the last 120 hours I've put on my C4 I have calculated my propane usage at exactly 1.9-2.0 gallons per hour total usage. I run the c4 at high rpm's and highest heat always. I'm paying $1.89 gallon for propane. To get the performance I have at a fuel cost of close to $1.89 an hour is awesome. This means I've only spent $226.00 on fuel to run my C4 since my purchase. Awesome :!:

That's great Mike, except you used 2 gal/hr not 1, so the cost was $453.

 

[joeynbgky]

My #3 lg uses .5 gallon an hour if that. 2 is high

Sent from my g2 using tapatalk. Whofat

 

[Mike Draper]

120 hours x 2.0 gph at $1.89 per gallon =?

 

[Nate The Great]

Sweet savings Mike...

Propane here is more then gas in most places... I do refill my tanks at the NEX... My gf is in the Army... It has its benefits... shiteatinggrin

 

[Leslie Judson Jones]

My #3 lg uses .5 gallon an hour if that. 2 is high

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Joey,

Mike Draper is running a 25 HP Propane Engine and also using a #4 Little Giant High Pressure Heater. Mike's fuel consumption is his total fuel consumption. There are a lot of advantages when running a Propane Engine. The biggest one that I like is the extended life on the engine, due to the oil not being contaminated with carbon. I noticed that you are running a #3 Little Giant Heater. When Judson
re-engineered the Little Giant heater's in the early 80's, we moved the thermostat from the bottom to the top. This caused the heater to shut off almost immediately when releasing the trigger. This increased the efficiency of the heater by 20%.

Les

 

[Leslie Judson Jones]

I love my C4. Let me give you an idea on fuel savings. I live right next to the mountain water storage tank. The water that goes into my fresh tank is between 39-43 degrees depending on the time of the year, so my little giant is working hard. I run a 12 flow TI wand at 2 gallons per minute. over the last 120 hours I've put on my C4 I have calculated my propane usage at exactly 1.9-2.0 gallons per hour total usage. I run the c4 at high rpm's and highest heat always. I'm paying $1.89 gallon for propane. To get the performance I have at a fuel cost of close to $1.89 an hour is awesome. This means I've only spent $226.00 on fuel to run my C4 since my purchase. Awesome :!:

I wonder what the operating cost comparison would be to a complicated heat exchange tm with proprietary parts that you can't find locally?

What heat exchanger truckmount would you have to buy to match the performance of the Judson C-4? The unit would have to maintain 240 Degree's with a Highflow wand under commercial operating condition's. In other words, after cleaning for 6 hours the temperature gauge is still at 240 degree's. What HP would this unit have to have, and what would be the gallons per hour of fuel consumption?

Also, with a heat exchanger truckmount you must preheat the unit. Especially if it's going to be used in commercial applications. At the end of the 10,000 hour life expectancy of the engine, how many hours were spent during this time preheating?

Les

 

[Art Kelley]

[quote="Mike Draper":22zrnc0y]I love my C4. Let me give you an idea on fuel savings. I live right next to the mountain water storage tank. The water that goes into my fresh tank is between 39-43 degrees depending on the time of the year, so my little giant is working hard. I run a 12 flow TI wand at 2 gallons per minute. over the last 120 hours I've put on my C4 I have calculated my propane usage at exactly 1.9-2.0 gallons per hour total usage. I run the c4 at high rpm's and highest heat always. I'm paying $1.89 gallon for propane. To get the performance I have at a fuel cost of close to $1.89 an hour is awesome. This means I've only spent $226.00 on fuel to run my C4 since my purchase. Awesome :!:

I wonder what the operating cost comparison would be to a complicated heat exchange tm with proprietary parts that you can't find locally?

What heat exchanger truckmount would you have to buy to match the performance of the Judson C-4? The unit would have to maintain 240 Degree's with a Highflow wand under commercial operating condition's. In other words, after cleaning for 6 hours the temperature gauge is still at 240 degree's. What HP would this unit have to have, and what would be the gallons per hour of fuel consumption?

Also, with a heat exchanger truckmount you must preheat the unit. Especially if it's going to be used in commercial applications. At the end of the 10,000 hour life expectancy of the engine, how many hours were spent during this time preheating?

Les[/quote:22zrnc0y]


I would think that Mike's fuel usage on his Butler with it's "complicated" HX's was 2 gal/hr as it is on my WM Pro1200. Except the HX's aren't complicated on a direct drive unit, just a radiator HX and a blower exhaust HX. So, about the same fuel usage. But at $1.89 for his state subsidized propane (vs a national average cost of $3/gal), he's getting a sweet deal compared to gas cost of $4/gal. That's an extra $2110 per year on a 1000 hours usage for putting up with the hassle of a separate water heater vs the simplicity of his old HX Butler. About $175/month or $44/week $8/day on a 5.5 day week.

 

[Art Kelley]

120 hours x 2.0 gph at $1.89 per gallon =?

Is this a trick question? My calculator shows $453. If you only spent $226 then you only ran the machine 60 hrs. Check to see if your hour meter is working properly.

 

[Mike Draper]

Our propane and cng is not subsidized by anyone, its just not taxed to hell to pay for entitlement programs. My butler ran 2.5 gph. However, that was running on high always, and as I stated above, the performance I'm getting in the judson c4 is not even in the same ball park as a butler. Much of my fuel in the butler went to warming up the engine since 6 months out of the year its cold here. So runtme on my butler was 2.5 gph, and the you have add in warm up fuel which increses your fuel cost more, and the cleaning power was not as efficient.

 

[Mike Draper]

[quote="Mike Draper":nrf4zszx]120 hours x 2.0 gph at $1.89 per gallon =?

Is this a trick question? My calculator shows $453. If you only spent $226 then you only ran the machine 60 hrs. Check to see if your hour meter is working properly.[/quote:nrf4zszx]

Yes, it is a trick question. I wanted to see if anyone would catch my error. shiteatinggrin

 

[joeynbgky]

Sorry Les. I didnt know he was running everything on propane! And his water coming in is cold! That is an awesome 2 gall an hour then..

And LEs thank you for redoign the lg #3 its awsome!

 

[Bob Foster]

I can say I have a similar experience with my TNT and #4 Little Giant. My cost over the last 2.5 days was $28 with a 18HP Briggs converted to propane and #4 Little Giant. Most of the time on these 2.5 days I had the heat turned down off full. I figure the slide in and heater were only running about 10 hours.

My fuel cost is 80 cents a litre. That works out to about 10 gallons for 10 hours. 1 gallon an hour costing 2.80 an hour.

1 us gallon = 3.78 liters

 

[GeneMiller]

Bob how is that Vanguard muffler holding up. I had that same muffler and never got more then 250 hrs before the welds would break. Hopefully they fixed that problem. I finally went to a muffler shop and had them fab one for me.

gene

 

[Bob Foster]

Mine is getting re-welded on Monday when they raise my rear bumper. 8)

Its broken right where the exhaust tip leaves the muffler.

 

[GeneMiller]

normal welding won't work on that thing for some reason. i had the first one welded but it broke in the same spot. I bought a new one thinking it was a fluke but it broke. i finally gave up and had one made. it lasted until i got rid of the machine.

gene

 

[Becker]

Propane in these here parts is at least twice that!

Good heat huh..

 

[Mike Draper]

Bob, you need to put that regulator as close to the propane tank as possible. It really should be outside.

 

[Becker]

Bob, do you have pics of your van all the way around?

 

[Bob Foster]

Bob, you need to put that regulator as close to the propane tank as possible. It really should be outside.

Thanks Mike. I was warned by several people about it. That picture is an older one. The regulator is now outside of the box down near tank.

 

[Bob Foster]

Bob, do you have pics of your van all the way around?

Was going to do one sometime. But I have done a couple of youtubes of it.

 

[floorguy]

Bob, do you have pics of your van all the way around?

Was going to do one sometime. But I have done a couple of youtubes of it.

where the F are they then????

cant read your mind

 

[Walt]

Warm up savings -

HX machine warm up - Let's assume 3 jobs per day - w/ ten minutes of warm up time per job. - 30 minutes per day. 30 minutes per day X 200 days = 100 hours of warm up time per year. I think this is a conservative number.


Over All fuel usage based on national average of gas and propane. I think the numbers are pretty conservative.


Gas powered HX machine = 1000 hours x 1.2 gph = 1200 gallons. 1200 gallons x $4 = $4800 (a very efficient HX machine)

Gas powered HX machine = 1000 hours x 1.5 gph = 1500 gallons. 1500 gallons x $4 = $6000

Gas powered HX machine = 1000 hours x 2 gph = 2000 gallons. 2000 gallons x $4 = $8000 (an average HX machine?)

Gas powered HX machine = 1000 hours x 2.5 gph = 2500 gallons. 2500 gallons x $4 = $10000

Propane TNT = 900 hours x 1.7 gph = 1530 gallons. 1530 x 2.8 = 4284 = $4284


There are few HX machines that can maintain 240 on commercial work and only burn 1.2 gallons of fuel per hour. Most of us would turn the RPMs up to get the additional heat. Further the TNT is likely to burn less fuel on residential jobs because the boiler isn't running as frequently.

The TNT is almost half the cost of an "average" HX machine per year.

 

[Art Kelley]

Warm up savings -

HX machine warm up - Let's assume 3 jobs per day - w/ ten minutes of warm up time per job. - 30 minutes per day. 30 minutes per day X 200 days = 100 hours of warm up time per year. I think this is a conservative number.


.

Do you clean carpets Walt? I can see a manufacturer of machines talking about "warm up times" or some such nonsense. When was the last time you arrived at a job and had to have 240 degree water at the wand within the first few minutes of greeting the customer? I've never seen it. For me, there is at least a 1/2 hour time that involves moving furniture out, vacuuming, cleaning under things etc, before I need the most super hot water to clean a black traffic lane. But like you say, it's there within ten minutes on a HX TM. It's a ridiculous argument against HXs.

 

[Mike Draper]

I dont need 240deg water when I greet my custy. Just when I start cleaning. This winter why dont you make a video for us with you White Magic. Get your van to running temp (at least 20 min) and then start filming you get the machine going. It will take at least 15 minutes of cleaning to start pulling 200 at the wand, that is, if you can even pull 200 atw in the winter and sustain it, I highly doubt it. My buddies AT takes at least 15 minutes of cleaning to reach those temps and his HX is much better than the White magic is. A blower hx takes a while to create friction and substantial heat. on the flip side, a blower hx can only get so hot.

 

[Mike Draper]

BTW Art, you dont clean empty apmt's? There is no talking or moving furniture in those empty apmt's. you pull hoses out and start cleaning immediately. In and out.

 

[Walt]

Warm up savings -

HX machine warm up - Let's assume 3 jobs per day - w/ ten minutes of warm up time per job. - 30 minutes per day. 30 minutes per day X 200 days = 100 hours of warm up time per year. I think this is a conservative number.


.

Do you clean carpets Walt? I can see a manufacturer of machines talking about "warm up times" or some such nonsense. When was the last time you arrived at a job and had to have 240 degree water at the wand within the first few minutes of greeting the customer? I've never seen it. For me, there is at least a 1/2 hour time that involves moving furniture out, vacuuming, cleaning under things etc, before I need the most super hot water to clean a black traffic lane. But like you say, it's there within ten minutes on a HX TM. It's a ridiculous argument against HXs.

Yes I clean carpets. I own a HX machine.

I was only trying to compare the various types of fuel and potential savings of running propane. Ten minutes to warm the machine to operating temperatures has been expressed by others and my personal experience has been the same. I don't doubt that your experience has been different then mine.

Not accounting for any warm up time the numbers are as follows -


Gas powered HX machine = 1000 hours x 1.2 gph = 1200 gallons. 1200 gallons x $4 = $4800 (a very efficient HX machine)

Gas powered HX machine = 1000 hours x 1.5 gph = 1500 gallons. 1500 gallons x $4 = $6000

Gas powered HX machine = 1000 hours x 2 gph = 2000 gallons. 2000 gallons x $4 = $8000 (an average HX machine?)

Gas powered HX machine = 1000 hours x 2.5 gph = 2500 gallons. 2500 gallons x $4 = $10000

Propane TNT = 1000 hours x 1.7 gph = 1700 gallons. 1700 x 2.8 = $4770

Not assuming any warm up time the Propane machine with a fuel fired heater is only slightly less expensive to run than the most efficient HX machine. The propane machine is made of stainless steel, has 130 gallon recovery tank, can maintain 240 under any real world conditions, and cost less than 14k brand new.

 

[Art Kelley]

BTW Art, you dont clean empty apmt's? There is no talking or moving furniture in those empty apmt's. you pull hoses out and start cleaning immediately. In and out.

When I clean a rat hole apartment it still takes me ten minutes to bring in all the hoses, prespray with the hydroforce, and buzz around quickly with the 175. Sometimes it takes eleven minutes for all that before I start wanding. All the while the vacuum it getting hotter and hotter. And that's going full speed. You do prespray don't you Mike? Even renters need some love.

 

[Art Kelley]

I dont need 240deg water when I greet my custy. Just when I start cleaning. This winter why dont you make a video for us with you White Magic. Get your van to running temp (at least 20 min) and then start filming you get the machine going. .

Things get so hot I have to take my shirt off. We don't need a video of that.

 

[Walt]

[quote="Mike Draper":39v1pmxt]BTW Art, you dont clean empty apmt's? There is no talking or moving furniture in those empty apmt's. you pull hoses out and start cleaning immediately. In and out.

When I clean a rat hole apartment it still takes me ten minutes to bring in all the hoses, prespray with the hydroforce, and buzz around quickly with the 175. Sometimes it takes eleven minutes for all that before I start wanding. All the while the vacuum it getting hotter and hotter. And that's going full speed. You do prespray don't you Mike? Even renters need some love.[/quote:39v1pmxt]

So you do let the tm "warm up" while you prep? I thought you didn't. And that's why you didn't like my warm up times factored into the actual cost of fuel.