Judson C4 Fuel savings.

[Dolly Llama]

Things get so hot I have to take my shirt off. We don't need a video of that.

no vid, but i believe Bob has pics :shock:

the HX vs fuel debate is stupid and endless
The simple fact is, there are advantages and disadvantages to both... :roll:


..L.T.A.

 

[NobleCarpetCleaners]

The only thing I got out of that was that you're paying $1.89 per gallon for propane. So you have a time machine?

 

[BLewis]

So Les, how's the C-4 w/hx test coming along?

 

[Leslie Judson Jones]

I would love to have a debate on this board about heat exchangers vs fuel fired machines. I’ve tried my best, but nobody wants to play. It might be because I’m so heavily armored and have a lot of ammo in my arsenal. The only person I see that wants to play is Art Kelly, so art I have something for you here and I know you’re going to enjoy it.

Let’s say you go and purchase a heat exchange unit that will have close to the same heating ability as the C-4. You will have to buy the largest horsepower heat exchange unit on the market; something like a 68 hp water-cooled engine. Now let’s say that this engine lasts 10,000 hours and the average job is 2 hours. So you had to preheat the engine on 5,000 jobs at 15 minutes per job. That is 1250 hours of preheating. To me, this is unacceptable because the engine only had 10,000 hours to begin with. So you are putting almost 1250 hours on the engine and it is not even cleaning carpets.

Now, let’s go buy the gas for the preheating period and let’s say gas is $3.00 per gallon. That is 1250 hours times 2 gallons per hour fuel consumption at $3.00 per gallon of gas times 2. That comes to $6 per hour. 1250 times 6 equals $7,500 just to bring the engine up to operating temperature; that is if you want the unit to run at optimum temperature.

So let’s summarize what I just said. You bought a heat exchanger thinking that you were getting free heat, but in reality it costs a considerable amount of money just to not go buy some propane. Not to mention that the unit is a complicated piece of equipment that your average Joe can not repair.

Now let’s take this scenario one step further. Let’s say that those 1250 hours were actually used to clean carpet instead of just preheating the unit. The average income for cleaning carpet is $100 per hour. That is $12,500 of lost revenue. If this preheat time had been used to clean carpet instead of preheating, you would have had $12,500 more dollars in your bank account. So in the 10,000 hour life expectancy of the heat exchange engine, it cost you $20,000 to have free heat. Now you have to go buy a new engine? What’s that going to cost?

Now, by the time Barak Obama is done with his second term, gas will be at least $10 per gallon if the economy hasn’t totally collapsed by then. That same heat exchanger that you thought had free heat is now going to cost you $200,000 more than if you had bought a C-4. All this money spent, and it still will not maintain 240 degrees on a high flow wand under commercial carpet cleaning conditions. Just think how many C-4’s you could have bought for $200,000.

.

 

[Burtz]

there is well known buttler ower that claims like .5 gallons an hour
cant remember his name

 

[Leslie Judson Jones]

So Les, how's the C-4 w/hx test coming along?

Billy, thanks for asking about the C-4 heat exchanger. The unit will maintain 210 – 220 on a standard flow wand. It has a very large exhaust-only heat exchanger on it made by John in Florida. This thing is massive. It is about 4 feet long and 5 inches in diameter. The unit does come to temperature fairly fast because it is an exhaust system only, connected to a 35 hp engine.

What really takes time on other heat exchangers is that they actually have two different heating systems that must be heated. One is the exhaust heat exchanger and the other which requires some time to preheat is your preheated water. This is the water that is in your water box and is usually circulating through the blower heat exchanger. Both of these must be brought up to optimum temperature to sustain temperature while cleaning under commercial carpet cleaning conditions.

I will see if I can get Dick, my brother in Florida to post some photographs of it. The system is very simple. It has no exhaust diverters, sensors, relays, or custom-made apparatuses, mechanisms, or devices. The only control on this system is a Murphy switch. For about $60 you can afford to have an extra one. As I mentioned before it is a 210 – 220 standard-flow system that should be more reliable due to simplicity.

 

[GeneMiller]

the problem with the numbers is they aren't real world numbers. I burn 1.2 gals an hour on dual and maintain 240 at the machine easily. the machine will hit 9000 hrs shortly and i never preheat. never have never will. just the facts not a bunch of fake numbers. i can clean with just cold water if i have to, I know because i used to have a burner and it would break or i would run out of fuel. never stopped me from cleaning. customers never complained and carpets sure looked clean. have had both and both are fine but a hx has saved ME money and time.

gene

 

[Leslie Judson Jones]

the problem with the numbers is they aren't real world numbers. I burn 1.2 gals an hour on dual and maintain 240 at the machine easily. the machine will hit 9000 hrs shortly and i never preheat. never have never will. just the facts not a bunch of fake numbers. i can clean with just cold water if i have to, I know because i used to have a burner and it would break or i would run out of fuel. never stopped me from cleaning. customers never complained and carpets sure looked clean. have had both and both are fine but a hx has saved ME money and time.

gene

Gene,

I’m more than sure your unit is heating adequately enough to make your customers happy, but when you are cleaning with a high flow system, you must have BTU’s. Even a 68 HP engine will not maintain 240 degrees on a high flow wand under commercial carpet cleaning conditions.

The C-4 will maintain 240 under commercial carpet cleaning conditions with a high flow wand. My numbers are not fake. If you were going to take a heat exchanger and expect it to maintain temperature you must preheat it under commercial carpet cleaning conditions, especially if you are trying to run a high flow wand.

I know the numbers seem fake because this cost that I have put up is a gradual cost that accumulates over time. I agree with you Jean about lower temperatures. When I teach carpet cleaning I always teach to pre spray and mechanically scrub the carpet. If you do this, super high temperature is really not required, but most guys don’t want to pre-scrub. They want to pre spray and hit it with a wand.

P.S.

What kind of burner system did you run that broke down all the time?

 

[sam miller]

Ya in hot areas like So Cal once the machine is hot it stays hot all day. I have a 405 low flow wand I can run 2 #4 wands and the machine will sit over 230 still ATW is a completly different story and one high flow wand at 12 it drops quick to around 200 depends on the amount of dry strokes.

I do like the all propane machine I'm just wondering if you used to low flow wand's say a total of 8 would you have enough Vacuum like on vacants and such or large areas and both wands carry 240 degree's?

I would think it would work fine with 2 AW29 or to prochem quads?

 

[Mike Draper]

there is a big difference between at the truck and at the wand temps, as well as living in Florida vs. cleaning here in the winter when it 0 degrees.

 

[Art Kelley]

Again, Les, I must reiterate, at least for me, preheating is not a factor. I don't use a slide-in HX system. Mine is a direct drive: when I arrive at a job the water is at 205 degrees, and can clean anything in my path. Within ten minutes the blower exhust HX has brought that up to 240.
The only complicated HX systems I've seen are on slide-in machines, which I would never want to use. As for life span of the units, a direct drive unit should go at least 50000 hours, as there is no heat cooking the machine all day. My 87 WM Pro 1200 has 20000 hours and looks, well, middle-aged. My daily use 03 Pro1200 has 8000 hrs and looks like a pretty young girl.
In real world use, on the jobs I do all day long, using an 18 flow ti wand, there is all the heat I need to clean the residential jobs I do, and the commercial ones, as I don't hold the trigger open the entire time I'm wanding. And not one minute was spent getting propane or keorsene, which is a time factor that fuel fired machine users must take into consideration. Time is money also.

I would love to have a debate on this board about heat exchangers vs fuel fired machines. I’ve tried my best, but nobody wants to play. It might be because I’m so heavily armored and have a lot of ammo in my arsenal. The only person I see that wants to play is Art Kelly, so art I have something for you here and I know you’re going to enjoy it.

Let’s say you go and purchase a heat exchange unit that will have close to the same heating ability as the C-4. You will have to buy the largest horsepower heat exchange unit on the market; something like a 68 hp water-cooled engine. Now let’s say that this engine lasts 10,000 hours and the average job is 2 hours. So you had to preheat the engine on 5,000 jobs at 15 minutes per job. That is 1250 hours of preheating. To me, this is unacceptable because the engine only had 10,000 hours to begin with. So you are putting almost 1250 hours on the engine and it is not even cleaning carpets.

Now, let’s go buy the gas for the preheating period and let’s say gas is $3.00 per gallon. That is 1250 hours times 2 gallons per hour fuel consumption at $3.00 per gallon of gas times 2. That comes to $6 per hour. 1250 times 6 equals $7,500 just to bring the engine up to operating temperature; that is if you want the unit to run at optimum temperature.

So let’s summarize what I just said. You bought a heat exchanger thinking that you were getting free heat, but in reality it costs a considerable amount of money just to not go buy some propane. Not to mention that the unit is a complicated piece of equipment that your average Joe can not repair.

Now let’s take this scenario one step further. Let’s say that those 1250 hours were actually used to clean carpet instead of just preheating the unit. The average income for cleaning carpet is $100 per hour. That is $12,500 of lost revenue. If this preheat time had been used to clean carpet instead of preheating, you would have had $12,500 more dollars in your bank account. So in the 10,000 hour life expectancy of the heat exchange engine, it cost you $20,000 to have free heat. Now you have to go buy a new engine? What’s that going to cost?

Now, by the time Barak Obama is done with his second term, gas will be at least $10 per gallon if the economy hasn’t totally collapsed by then. That same heat exchanger that you thought had free heat is now going to cost you $200,000 more than if you had bought a C-4. All this money spent, and it still will not maintain 240 degrees on a high flow wand under commercial carpet cleaning conditions. Just think how many C-4’s you could have bought for $200,000.

.

 

[floorguy]

ohhh i know that 10 or 15 minutes is such a toughy :roll: :roll: :roll:

now granted if you dont have it around easy to get to then i get it....

shoot mine is about 25 miles away, but i have jobs or errands out that way, so I am sure to get it on the days i am out there....If i do forget, then there are places usually about 5-10 miles away

 

[Bjorn]

2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FgvNr6lb2s2]

 

[Brian R]

Things get so hot I have to take my shirt off. We don't need a video of that.

no vid, but i believe Bob has pics :shock:

the HX vs fuel debate is stupid and endless
The simple fact is, there are advantages and disadvantages to both... :roll:


..L.T.A.

Someone had to post them

Check out Bob trying to get his camera going ASAP before Art gets a shirt from Jimbo. That was funnier than hell.

 

[bob vawter]

JEEBUS...i STILL woulda hid in the ice maker machine room........
till someone came along! :shock:

art STILL won't talk to me.!

 

[Lee Stockwell]

I've never had "warmup time".


....'cept for ME

 

[floorguy]

I've never had "warmup time".


....'cept for ME

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

uhhhhhhh Ivebeensold Ivebeensold Ivebeensold Ivebeensold Ivebeensold Ivebeensold

 

[Brian R]

I've never had "warmup time".


....'cept for ME

:shock:
Dude

 

[Lee Stockwell]

All these dirty minds.

My "warmup time" is trying to work with a cup of coffee in one hand.

 

[Leslie Judson Jones]

there is all the heat I need to clean the residential jobs I do, and the commercial ones, as I don't hold the trigger open the entire time I'm wanding. And not one minute was spent getting propane or keorsene, which is a time factor that fuel fired machine users must take into consideration. Time is money also.

Art,

I agree that you have all the heat you need to do jobs. I’ve always said that if you pre-spray and mechanically scrub a carpet, high heat is not as much of a factor. I understand that you haven’t spent any time buying propane but you have spent time buying gasoline. I don’t think you guys quite understand the total propane approach that we are taking with the industry. With a 100% propane system, you don’t ever have to go to another gas station to buy fuel again. Your van fuel and unit fuel is conveniently located at your facility. It’s like having your own personal gas station at your facility. When buying propane in bulk like this, it’s a lot lower priced and it’s very convenient being able to fuel your vehicle back at the office.

There are a lot of advantages to running a vehicle on propane. One of the biggest advantages is that it extends the life of the engine. Plus, if you’re claiming to be a “green” company this is a big market advantage you would have. I would like to go over some fuel costs associated with running a V8 engine to clean carpets. I know you mentioned that your unit uses 2 gallons of gas an hour. I don’t agree that it is 2 gallons. I think it is more, but let’s go with your figure of 2 gallons per hour. For every 10,000 hours you put on your unit cleaning carpets with the price of gas today being about $4 per gallon you would have spent $80,000 in fuel.

Now if you were doing the same job with a C-4 as Mike Draper mentioned and you throttle the C-4 engine back and turn the heater down to match the performance of your direct drive, it will burn right at 1 gallon an hour. Mike Draper is paying $1.89 for a gallon of propane. At 10,000 hours your total fuel bill would have been $18,900. This would be a savings of $61,100 for every 10,000 hours you’re cleaning. Remember, when you have your own fill bottle at your location, the price of propane is a lot less. You are also extending the life of the truckmount and the van. I will include some pictures of the new factory Chevrolet propane van and a photograph of one of my customers who has his own fill bottle at his location.

 

[GeneMiller]

Les don't get me wrong. I completely disagree with your numbers but i like propane. i had a little giant 4ht if i got the ht right. it had periods where it wouldn't stay lit and i had problems with the ring getting clogged. If it was convenient i would probably run propane for everything. it burns clean and increases engine life. for me it isn't the miracle juice or rather gas.

my vanguard used twice the gas plus propane as my current unit. no savings their. my county or maybe my state (unsure ) requires that the tank being filled is inside the gated area.. only two places around like that, neither very convient. it's cheaper than gas but not worth the hassle. for me, gas is the way to go.

this machine produces more heat then i can use running 16 flow ( not 18 I think i posted before ).
we actually made some changes to bring the temp down because the wand would scream when the trigger was pulled.

diesel engine, add at least a 5m blower and i'll add my diesel burner. one fuel, available every where.

gene