New Triple 3-Stage Portable w/500 PSI Pump

[Bjorn]

Ken harris is the worlds up most expert there is

 

[John LaBarbera]

ok Ryan Ken harris is the world up most expert there is

so just end all your tire kicking and buy one from him

Come on, Terje, be nice. We're just having a friendly conversation.

 

[Bjorn]

you can talk cfm lift E=mc2 string theory and then Kens theory which will over ride all laws of nature and physics

 

[Ryan]

ok Ryan Ken harris is the world up most expert there is

so just end all your tire kicking and buy one from him

Just trying to understand things here and I'm sure this thread will be helpful to lots of others.

Why don't you point out the good/bad about this machine instead of just mocking it?

I appreciate the professionalism of John, there is a reason some companys run by men like him are sucessful.

 

[Bjorn]

simple

two cords all that stuff to run most residential homes are not going to have enough to supply the power needs of that portable

how is that?

the big deal is I use what I manufacture every day not just a couple hours in a shop test run and sell it.

 

[roro]

If Kenny were really a genius he'd had figured out how to have three "stacks" in the tank, all I could manage was two big ones.[/b]
]

Don't understand the requirement for genius - Soteco, who are perhaps one of the largest manufacturers in the world, have been doing it for over 20 years.

roro

 

[rotovacguy]

Ok so ken tells me that you can buy em with all three vacs parallel? Would this be a better configuration?

I'm also wondering why all that heat couldn't be put to use heating the water? Something like the perfect heat system powerflite uses? Or would that be breaking patent laws?

"Perfect Heat" isn't really perfect. It's very difficult to heat water with hot air and those vac motors don't produce enough to heat water. Mytee makes a little air manifold to cool the motors with outside air. If Larry wants to try them I could send him a couple.

The reason the hose is going inside the vac motor is to lower the airflow and thus the amp draw, I think. Correct me if I'm wrong. (it won't be the first time)

What I don't understand about that is how do you get a sealed vacuum doing that? Wouldn't it be better to just run it OVER the exhaust port and seal with a hose clamp to ensure no leakage?


Either way, I just don't like the looks of the way they shoehorned stuff in there.

 

[Greenie]

If Kenny were really a genius he'd had figured out how to have three "stacks" in the tank, all I could manage was two big ones.[/b]
]

Don't understand the requirement for genius - Soteco, who are perhaps one of the largest manufacturers in the world, have been doing it for over 20 years.

roro

Soteco, has THREE stacks in a portable extractor? With three high level float shut offs?

I've never seen it?

Have you used it?

It must be a pretty good sized waste tank?

 

[Mikey P]

I'm amazed Ed Valentine and Bob Savage have yet to comment on this.



Larry, did Ken design this, you? or both of you?

Was it tested in a normally wired home for a few hours to see if it's safe?


While Greenie, and Terje are jumping all over this, they do make some very important points about fire safety that I feel you should be addressing.

 

[rick imby]

There are some SERIOUS tight bends in that vac plumbing.
Question for those who build portys:

WHY are vac motors always mounted to the floor of the unit? Why can't they be mounted to the inner walls as well to more efficiently use space and relieve overcrowding/overheating/tight bends? I'm sure there must be a good reason....what is it?

take care,
Lisa

From my perspective there are a couple of reasons.

#1 The waste tank needs to be quite strong to hold the vacuum pressure, that is why they are always ribbed and usually round. The supply tank has no vacuum pressure on it so they are designed to be molded around the waste tank.

#2 The placement of the bottom of the waste tank needs to be above the rim--toilet rim that is-- for gravity dumping into a toilet or 5 gallon bucket.

#3 The vac motors need to be accessible for replacement and in one compartment helps.

You have three compartments--fresh water--waste water--engine compartment. You are locked into the location and size of waste tank as high and round. This leaves a space behind or in front of the tank and there has to be a compartment below the waste tank.

If you put the motors above the waste tank then your weight is very high and tippy when empty. Carrying a load with two big empty tanks and all the weight high is unbalanced. When you go to more vac motors and a heavier pump this increases the tippyness. I believe US Products builds extractors this way.

Another problem with the motors under is you have to suck from the top. So they run a pipe up the inside of the waste tank. This is to make it look sleeker but takes volume out of the waste tank. Ed V runs his hose on the outside I believe.

Greenie mentioned he could not get three pipes from the motors to the top of the waste tank, if he did he would end up with a much smaller waste tank and three penetrations( I love that word) of the bottom of the waste tank to seal and three shutoffs to try and place on top of those pipes.

I don't know why greenie didn't put a manifold on the bottom of the tank and a 2.5" or 3" single pipe up???

These machines are normally designed to handle two motors and a pump and a heater in the motor compartment. The building of a new mold is expensive so most people trying to hotrod a porty are using an available box. The Mytee Breeze has one of the largest motor compartments and the unit is inexpensive.


In a non mobile unit you would mount the motors over the tank which is the best place---less hose (less power loss) and less waste tank volume loss.

We are also limited by overall size and some of the quirks of rotomold design. I dnon't know much about that but Mr Mytee does.

****
But the easiest way to hotrod a porty is add a booster or two.

Greenie and Mr Mytee i would love feedback on my thoughts.

Rick


***Side note***
My thoughts as to why the vac motors last better in an upright position is because when (not if) water gets sucked into the motors the residual water drains away from the bearings. If it were a dry vac I believe the motor orientation makes very little difference---This is just one of my theories.

 

[rick imby]

I'm amazed Ed Valentine and Bob Savage have yet to comment on this.



Larry, did Ken design this, you? or both of you?

Was it tested in a normally wired home for a few hours to see if it's safe?


While Greenie, and Terje are jumping all over this, they do make some very important points about fire safety that I feel you should be addressing.

Mikey the whole thing about circuit breakers is they pop so the home electrical system doesn't.

Fire Safety tell me most of the portys with heaters in the motor box won't get as hot or hotter than this motor box. They also mounted a small motor box fan which should cool things better than most.

 

[Bjorn]

OK some of us were a little unfair and having some fun lets wait for it to be tested in more than one residential atmosphere

thats a ton of stuff to run off so few cords and see how it does

 

[dgardner]

Safety is not really an issue. I could put ten vac motors on one cord and it would be safe. Stupid, but still safe. The breaker would trip as soon as I turned it on. That's what the electrical codes and standards do for us, ensure that breakers remove power before wiring overheats.

I see three possible issues that may come up. Finding a 20A circuit (not a problem here, possibly in certain older neighborhoods), running around the house turning off lamps, TV's etc. (because just two 60 watt bulbs added on to 19 amps will trip the breaker), and nuisance breaker trips.

Even though the thermal trip mechanism in breakers are supposed to allow right up to the rated amps, as you push the limit the thermal element could, after many minutes, eventually get hot enough to trip. This gets worse as the breaker ages. Not unsafe, but definitely irritating.

Now, all this could be moot - if some DIY'er put in the wrong size wire when he added that outlet or did something equally stupid/illegal. You run that risk no matter what you plug in. Once you decide to use the custy's electrical, you are assuming some liability if something goes wrong.

 

[Bob Savage]

I'm amazed Ed Valentine and Bob Savage have yet to comment on this.

More power to them, and it will take a whole lot more power ....lol

Builders of truckmounts and portys ALL seem to strive for more and more vacuum, to overcome distance.

I would have to say that a lot of truckmounts have way more vacuum than they can possibly use, but still the cleaners think they need BIG blowers, or 3-4 electric vacuum motors, in order to clean properly.

These days, the porty builders are trying to compete with truckmount vacuum systems so the porty can operate from the van. Some of these portys will probably run 200' from the van, I reckon. Of course, when you try to move them inside, you have a heave-ho on your hands.

So, for these multiple vacuum motored portables, you'll either need an electrical generator on-board (defeats the purpose of it being electric), or a sea of power cords going into the house.

Then there's the great circuit hunt inside, to power all of this; sometimes up to 4 separate circuits, as in separate circuits on separate legs, or separate circuits on the same leg, dedicated circuits, etc. Or, you can tap into 220V, which personally I would not like to do.

Internally generated heat is the enemy of a portable. That's why we build our electronics on the top of the waste tank on all of our vacuum systems (truckmount and portable), so all of the heat generated will rise into the air. I get amazing vacuum motor life this way. The motors never run hot.

We direct mount the vacuum motor, so there are no hoses, elbows, mounting plates, screws, epoxy, etc., between the vacuum motor and the waste tank. The waste tank itself is extremely compact for maximum vacuum, and ease of transport. You can change our motors out in less than 5 minutes without having to remove any compartments of the machine.

We use a patented electronic motor full tank shutoff that can control multiple motors at the same time, all controlled by a single high quality marine float switch, which has yet to fail in 9 years of field use.

Our APO motors will last for life. I have yet to hear of one motor failing on any of our truckmounts in 9 years of use. The APO can run for weeks with no attention to it at all!

Oh, and we only need 1 (one) -15 amp circuit to run our complete electric truckmount - vacuum, heat, and pressure.

It's kinda' like Mikey's board wanting to eliminate rooms and KISS for board members.

 

[Greenie]

Rick, #1,#2, & #3 are right on.

Another problem with the motors under is you have to suck from the top. So they run a pipe up the inside of the waste tank. This is to make it look sleeker but takes volume out of the waste tank. Ed V runs his hose on the outside I believe.

Yes, regardless how you get there, you need to have vacuums suck from above the "foam line", and you need some air/water separation, that is actually something you never hear about in a 10 gal. porty but it's a HUGE factor in high performance extraction....it's also the reason a guy like me can only do "so much" when hotrodding existing machines.

Greenie mentioned he could not get three pipes from the motors to the top of the waste tank, if he did he would end up with a much smaller waste tank and three penetrations( I love that word) of the bottom of the waste tank to seal and three shutoffs to try and place on top of those pipes.

I don't know why greenie didn't put a manifold on the bottom of the tank and a 2.5" or 3" single pipe up???

It's a good idea, you took the words and thoughts right out of my mind. Problem is, we have to work from the current avail. parts, there aren't any readily avail. 2.5" float shut offs, and I've not yet seen 2.5" wire re-inforced hose and 2.5" custome vacuum manifold motor mounts.....but who knows, John Labarbera is a crafty dude.


In a non mobile unit you would mount the motors over the tank which is the best place---less hose (less power loss) and less waste tank volume loss.

We are also limited by overall size and some of the quirks of rotomold design. I dnon't know much about that but Mr Mytee does.

lol...John will love that one

****
But the easiest way to hotrod a porty is add a booster or two.

True....just match it up, you don't want to overpower it in the tug-o-war.


***Side note***
My thoughts as to why the vac motors last better in an upright position is because when (not if) water gets sucked into the motors the residual water drains away from the bearings. If it were a dry vac I believe the motor orientation makes very little difference---This is just one of my theories.

Excellent theory, and true, therefore it's now a Rick Fact.
Heat and water is what kills vacs, if you changed the brushes annually BEFORE they wore out, and protected from heat and moisture, they would last an incredible time....nobody changes the brushes enough, they wait too long.

 

[John LaBarbera]

Went to your website, Bob. Very nice. I see you have an electric heater there that heats the water before the pump. What temps do you run with that? Is it thermostatically controlled? What the max water temp for the pump? What is the pumps output pressure at an 04 and 06 jets? Thanks.

 

[Larry Cobb]

Larry, did Ken design this, you? or both of you?

Was it tested in a normally wired home for a few hours to see if it's safe?

While Greenie, and Terje are jumping all over this, they do make some very important points about fire safety that I feel you should be addressing.

Mikey;

The concept of this machine was most powerful machine operating on a 15 and 20 amp circuit.

This is, like all high performance portables we offer, our design.

The prototype has been tested with new Extech clamp-on ammeters extensively.

No functioning 20 Amp circuit breaker will trip; running this machine for hours.

Most houses have had 20 Amp circuit breakers for the last 20 years.

Larry

P.S. For the record, we pioneered the 1st 3-vac portable many years ago.
It ran on two 15 amp circuits.

 

[Ryan]

Larry, did Ken design this, you? or both of you?

Avoiding the question larry?

 

[Larry Cobb]

Ryan;

The concept of this machine was most powerful machine operating on a 15 and 20 amp circuit.

This is, like all high performance portables we offer, our design.

Larry

Many customers are interested in high performance portables with new technology wands.

 

[roro]

If Kenny were really a genius he'd had figured out how to have three "stacks" in the tank, all I could manage was two big ones.[/b]
]

Don't understand the requirement for genius - Soteco, who are perhaps one of the largest manufacturers in the world, have been doing it for over 20 years.

roro

Soteco, has THREE stacks in a portable extractor? With three high level float shut offs?

I've never seen it?

Have you used it?

It must be a pretty good sized waste tank?

They have three motors in parallel which go to a base. That base has a single vac inlet which has the float shut off.
These were the second type of machines we ever bought. Some are about 20+ years old and they are still in daily use for upholstery and spot cleaning.
The waste tank is about 45L (usable as opposed to total capacity) from memory.

We call them our Daleks if you know Dr Who :?



We also use the concept of vacs above the recovery tank in our "big ugly"
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=31927


roro

 

[Bob Savage]

Went to your website, Bob. Very nice. I see you have an electric heater there that heats the water before the pump. What temps do you run with that? Is it thermostatically controlled? What the max water temp for the pump? What is the pumps output pressure at an 04 and 06 jets? Thanks.

Thank you, John, for your comment.

The electric heater you saw on our Website is for when the SAVAGE has to go inside, like a portable. The electric heater is AFTER the high pressure pump, not before, and then the pump is fed hot water. The pump has BunaM seals and does well with hot tap water input. Yes, the electric heater has a high limit shut off so it can't overheat while being used. I am not a fan of electric heaters. They are adequate at best.

You are lucky to get 170º, depending on how you key the wand while cleaning.

The Truckmount breaks away with the vacuum module, and the pressure module. The LP stays in the van.

The pump we use is the same as the M5, which is a good high flow setup.

 

[Greenie]

P.S. For the record, we pioneered the 1st 3-vac portable many years ago.
It ran on two 15 amp circuits.

Larry, are you sure?

The Steamway 900 is a pretty old machine, and there might have even been one or two before that that had 3 vacs in series, I'll have to see if Les remembers any?

 

[Mikey P]

Thanks Larry.


Send me two.

 

[Loren Egland]

Steam Way 900 has been around probably over 20+ years.

I have a question. Why don't we see portables like the old Steam Way 400 model? These had a positive displacement blower in them that would run up to 15 on the vac guage. I can even remember collapsing my metal waste tank, probably from wearing thin over the years.

I did have to carry fuses, the time delay kind. It had another cord for the electric heater in the solution tank.

That sucker weighed more than I did though. Had big wheels like a dolly. Usually only ran 25 feet of hose, but sometimes I doubled that if I didn't want to bring the machine upstairs.

 

[John LaBarbera]

I built quad vacs back in the 80's when my Dad and I owned Carpet Jenny.