Powermatic Heating Issue

[Jamesh921]

My Powermatic isn't heating like it should. When I first start it up, the heater runs but the temp won't go over 120 degrees even though the heater continues to run. Once I allow the heater to kick off, it won't come back on immediately. Then, it only kicks on intermittently. Does it just need descaling or could it be deeper issue?

Thanks,
James

 

[Erik]

Sounds like a good place to start. I think we used 1/2 gal. of the 20% muratic acid, to 4 gal. of water.

 

[Dolly Llama]

yep...descale
and descale "thoroughly"

Muratic acid is what i use too.
Buy it at Home Depot in the garden dept.
'bout $12 a gal


USE CAUTION...cause the stuff is wicked .
wear protection... GOOD chem resistant gloves and eye protection

Do you know how to descale a Powermatic?

You need a 5 gal bucket and a short piece of garden hose ('bout 4-5ft long) with male end

Mix your descale solution in the bucket.
unplug the water box line where it connects at the plenum (the brass cluster block)
Put the fitting you use on your fresh water hose on the end of the 4-5ft short hose you made .
Plug that into the plenum in the spot where you disconnected the water box line.
stick the other end in the bucket of descale solution
Plug in your solution line, (or a short piece of sol line)

Turn off the emulsion/detergent/rinse feed.
start up the TM, turn on the pump and let it suck up 3/4 of a bucket of descale solution while the open solution line pumps solution down an "environmentally responsible" drain.
The idea here is to purge the TM plumbing of any detergent solution in the system.
add more descale solution to the 5 gal bucket .
Turn the heater to appx 150, stick the open sol line in the bucket and recirculate the solution til temp reaches 150.

shut it down and let it dwell just a bit.
Use that time to add a cup of alkaline TM detergent directly into the water box and mix well.
(this will neutralize the the strong acid in the system)
Re-connect the water box line.
then connect a fresh water line

start up the TM and flush for 5-10 minutes .
It's likely you'll see a thick GOO run out of the sol line if you haven't descaled in awhile .
if it clogs the sol line, turn the pump to hi-pressure and blow the goo out


be advised, muratic acid is very corrosive to brass fittings, but there is NOTHING I've found that is faster or more thorough for descaling than muratic acid


..L.T.A.

 

[Erik]

Ya that it 8) thanks Larry.

 

[ACE]

When I descaled my PM it blew out a ton of rust for the next week. I flushed but it was so bad it cloged the quick connects. Be ready for cloged filters / jets for the next 5-10 hours of use.

 

[Jeremy]

Clean the points on the ignitor while you're at it...

 

[rwcarpet]

Clean the points on the ignitor while you're at it...

Although Larry is right on with the descaling, which the PM needs on a kinda regular basis, it sounds like a clogged nozzle or mis-aligned ignitor electrodes in the burner. Even check your filter into the burner pump.

Are you using a water softener??

 

[Dolly Llama]

it sounds like a clogged nozzle or mis-aligned ignitor electrodes in the burner. Even check your filter into the burner pump.

Are you using a water softener??

could be RW
but I'm leaning toward a restricted flow condition due to scale build up in combination with the stock POS flow switch causing the intermittent slow to fire or no burner ignition

Descale is easiest place to start ..and it probably needs it anyway


..L.T.A.

 

[rwcarpet]

it sounds like a clogged nozzle or mis-aligned ignitor electrodes in the burner. Even check your filter into the burner pump.

Are you using a water softener??

could be RW
but I'm leaning toward a restricted flow condition due to scale build up in combination with the stock POS flow switch causing the intermittent slow to fire or no burner ignition

Descale is easiest place to start ..and it probably needs it anyway


..L.T.A.

Your right on Larry.....I forgot about that POS water flow switch. If it ain't workin', you ain't heatin' water......

Mine has the upright plastic switch.

 

[everfresh1]

it sounds like a clogged nozzle or mis-aligned ignitor electrodes in the burner. Even check your filter into the burner pump.

Are you using a water softener??

could be RW
but I'm leaning toward a restricted flow condition due to scale build up in combination with the stock POS flow switch causing the intermittent slow to fire or no burner ignition

Descale is easiest place to start ..and it probably needs it anyway


..L.T.A.

Yea I think it's either the flow switch or the igniter is going bad. I was told to take the spring out of the flow switch, And it seems to work better without it. as far as the filter, Mine was clogged before and i had to keep bleeding the system to get fuel to flow for a minute, Then it would stop again so I don't think that is the problem here. Descaling is always good like Larry said but I don't think thats going to fix the problem either.

 

[Jamesh921]

Descaled -- No scale build-up at all. No back pressure in warm up position so the flow is fine. I start working on the ignitor next.

Thanks for your help,
James

 

[Jamesh921]

Hey Guys,
I tore down the ignitor. Lots of build :shock: up so I cleaned and polished it til it looked like new . Put it all back together and fired it up. At first, the burner kicked in and started heating shiteatinggrin , only to quit again about 30 seconds later :x . Then, it wouldn't fire again. I'm running out of ideas. Anybody got any other suggestions?

Thanks,
James

 

[Loren Egland]

Could be the flow switch. Unfasten the two wires and then fasten them to each other. The flow switch should fire without water flow with the heater switch one. If it does, then likely the flow switch is bad because it doesn't always work or turn on and off with the water flow. You can run this way if you crack the warm up valve partway on so it doesn't over heat from lack of water flow.

It could be the transformer going. Usually they just go out, but my last one would work on and off and drive me crazy.

Something that has not gone out on me in years, though I keep one on the truck like I do a transformer, is the fuel solenoid. Disconnect the fuel line to test if it is letting fuel through, but if you smell fuel, likely the problem is elsewhere.

Getting the ingiter prongs placed just right can also effect whether the heater ignites right or not at all. The manuel tells how to place them. I think 1/4 inch out and apart. You can easily remove the whole unit. Don't try adjusting them without taking the whole unit out. It is just simpler to slide it out to make the adjustments.

I suppose a nozzle could be plugged, but less likely from my experience.

Possible fuel pump failure. Disconnect hose to see if flowing fuel when pump and heater switch is on and water flowing while temperature turned up.

I assume the temp control is on point, but that can be adjusted with a allen wrench. Could also be that might be bad as well, but unlikely.

A few suggestions I hope helps.

 

[rwcarpet]

I agree with Loren.......jump the flow switch wires. If it fires continously, then it's the flow switch. Just be carefull....it will over heat real quick.

 

[Jamesh921]

Thanks for replying Loren. When I've had problems twice before I was told to replace the flow switch (by Steamway and by a Steamway Dist. Mechanic). NEITHER time was it the flow switch. However, I may as well try replacing it again just so's I can say I checked it off the list.

Fuel flow is fine. Steady stream coming out of the hose when I bled the line. And when I cleaned the ignitor, fuel was dripping thru the jet.

Ignitor prongs haven't been moved. Still at factory setting (you can tell that the set screw had never been moved).

I'll try checking the flow switch and transformer. Is there a way to check the transformer to see if it's bad?

Appreciate your help,
James

 

[Erik]

I would say the igniter or prong adjustment. How many hrs. on the unit?

 

[Jeremy]

Sounds like it's either the flow switch or you generator isn't making enough juice to arc the ignitor... Plug it into the house and if it makes heat its the generator if not its the flow switch. Larry can you post the # for Express Distributing in Zoarville, OH? He's pretty much the man with Steamways.

 

[Mike Pailliotet]

I had the same problme with my 2100, after Steamway themselves sent me this diagram..

I traded the nightmare in for a nice simple Judson.

 

[BradFenstermaker]

Like said above plug her into a 110 volt outlet. Plug garden hose into plenum with water flowing. Connect open solution hose to pressure line outlet and turn on heater.

She should fire. You can slowly lift the transformer with water pressure turned off and heater switch on. You should here the fan running and box igniting. Look in an if the spark is blue most likely the transformer is good. Any other color replace. Should be about 100 bucks at any wayne burner dealer near you.

Your electrodes may be fried also. You can get a kit where you find a transformer. It will take 2 hrs to put in new electrodes. These are what the spark travels across in front of the burner jet to ignite the kero. Sometimes a simple adjustment will help too.

Good luck, Larry has taught me everything I know about these burner systems.
Holler if I can help.

 

[Dolly Llama]

if you're going to replace the flow switch, DON'T put in the same POS steamway FS

buy an after market FS from Jeff at Steamway Express

3422 New Zoarville Road Northeast
Zoarville, OH 44656-9707
(330) 859-1011

checking the igniter is pretty easy if I recall.
It's the black, rectangle, hinged on one end, box on top of the burner assy
Loosen the bolt that holds it down on the one end and rock it back off the burner .
Turn on the heater and it should it send an arc across the two springs.

I'd check for a broken connection.
Look at the fuel solenoid wiring harness connector.
Unplug it and look ....make sure none of the flat pins have corroded and broke.
That happened to me one...it was an intermittent problem because "sometimes" the corroded pin would make contact and sometimes not


call Jeff at the number above.
He's my "go to" guy and knows more about Steamways than anyone I know


..L.T.A.

 

[Erik]

Hold the ignitor springs in each hand and have someone hit the switch, just kidding. I did that once, I thought it was only going to be a shock from 110 volt (no problem, I've been shocked by plugs before) I don't know what happens to the ignitor, but when it builds up power, it jolts. It felt like at least 240 volts, over and over. I couldn't let go or move, I was literally being electrocuted. The guy that was with me said by the look on my face something wasn't right. He shut the switch off, thank god! :shock:

 

[Dolly Llama]

Hold the ignitor springs in each hand and have someone hit the switch, just kidding. I did that once, I thought it was only going to be a shock from 110 volt (no problem, I've been shocked by plugs before) I don't know what happens to the ignitor, but when it builds up power, it jolts. It felt like at least 240 volts, over and over. I couldn't let go or move, I was literally being electrocuted. The guy that was with me said by the look on my face something wasn't right. He shut the switch off, thank god! :shock:

Jim "Sparky" Martin could tell us how they work, but I "think" you got banged with mega volts.
Kind of like grabbing the coil wire on a car.
50-60,000 volt jolt
low amp, hi volts ..might not electrocute you..but can make you pee your pants...

..L.T.A.

 

[everfresh1]

All you have to do to check the igniter is remove it and hook the two wires up to a car battery or the battery from the unit, put a screw driver close to the two electrodes, See if you have strong fire, you should be able to move the scew driver up four inches or so and the fire should follow with out breaking, If not the igniter is bad. You can buy find them cheaper at a powerwasher supply store. I just bought one and saved $100, It might not be as big, As the oringinal, but it works just as good. they are usally made by Wayne also, The company that makes the burner.

 

[Dolly Llama]

All you have to do to check the igniter is remove it and hook the two wires up to a car battery or the battery from the unit,.

even on a 110vt system, Jamie?
he has a powermatic, not a mastermatic

..l.T.A.

 

[bob vawter]

Hold the ignitor springs in each hand and have someone hit the switch, just kidding. I did that once, I thought it was only going to be a shock from 110 volt (no problem, I've been shocked by plugs before) I don't know what happens to the ignitor, but when it builds up power, it jolts. It felt like at least 240 volts, over and over. I couldn't let go or move, I was literally being electrocuted. The guy that was with me said by the look on my face something wasn't right. He shut the switch off, thank god! :shock:

that explains the nervous tic.....

 

[everfresh1]

All you have to do to check the igniter is remove it and hook the two wires up to a car battery or the battery from the unit,.

even on a 110vt system, Jamie?
he has a powermatic, not a mastermatic

..l.T.A.

Oh yea your right.. Ok hook it up to a electrical out let then.

 

[Jeremy]

Oh yeah & there is a little red pop out reset switch hidden on the side of the heater that keeps you from burning out the fan... That could be it too... LOL

 

[rwcarpet]

Sounds like it's either the flow switch or you generator isn't making enough juice to arc the ignitor... Plug it into the house and if it makes heat its the generator if not its the flow switch. Larry can you post the # for Express Distributing in Zoarville, OH? He's pretty much the man with Steamways.

Jeremy has a point.....do you run this PM with the generator for burner power, or do you plug into power at the job? I've got my generator in the shop right now for brushes. Many cleaners in my area with PM's don't even use the generator anymore. They plug in at the job.

 

[Loren Egland]

While we are on everything that can go wrong, I once had the plastic shaft that turns the fan wear on the end. The flat spot that made it possible to turn the shaft was not so flat anymore and the fan wouldn't spin. I doubt that is the problem though. That happened to me once 30 years ago.

 

[Jamesh921]

I plug the machine into an electrical outlet until I get this heating issue worked out.

Machine only has 967 hours on it. I shouldn't be having this many problems with it.

I've had it in the shop a few times. Once, it cost me over $500.00 to get it fixed for the same problem (not heating properly) and the mechanic couldn't tell me why it wouldn't heat or how he fixed it. But it worked great for quite awhile after that. But, here I am again with the same issues.
I really LOVE this machine when it's working properly. But it's getting really frustrating dealing with the same issue over and over. And to top it off, the nearest "decent" mechanic that I've heard of is in Tulsa, OK - about a hundred miles away from me. And who knows how long his waiting list is. So, other than you guys, I'm pretty much on my own to get this thing fixed.

Thanks again,

James