Ripples in carpet

[Gordy]

Hi Everyone

I was called to a house on Friday after a cat knocked over a Galileo thermometer which broke, spilling an oily substance on the carpet. I flushed the area out with prochem power solvent, rinsed the carpet out with water and gave the area a clean. I couldnt smell/feel any of the oily substance once I had finished.

I had a call from a the customer this morning to say the carpet has rippled. Photos below, I would appreciate ideas on why this might have occurred. It is a wool carpet with a jute backing. Standard domestic installation, tackless strips and stretched into place.

I am returning on Wednesday, once they have cleared the contents of the cabinet, to lift the carpet and inspect the backing. I am hoping that I can rectify this by simply re-stretching the carpet. I don't think the carpet has de-laminated but wont know this for sure until I lift it. The concrete floor over which the carpet is laid is quite uneven, maybe this has something to do with it.

Would appreciate any feedback.

Thanks
Gordon

 

[BIG WOOD]

I've never witnessed this with wool carpet, but I've seen it a few times with synthetic. It should lay back down. I've heard people tell me the cause is the backing being different than the threads, it not being properly stretched, and something else I can't remember.

 

[Mikey P]

Is that the exact spot that the spill occurred?

 

[Nomad74]

Man, this kind of stuff can be stressful. People have unrealistic expectations. Carpet with age stretches and when you put moisture into it, bam! Hopefully it lays down on it's own in a few days. I'm sure sliding that china cabinet around doesn't help much.

 

[Newman]

I am assuming that cabinet is big and heavy. Heavy furniture acts like an anchor not allowing the carpet to move naturally after cleaning.

Not really your fault. The nature of the beast. should be fine with a stretch.

 

[Mikey P]

I knocked over one of those things once, all the oil went into my boot.

My skin was red for a week. Harsh stuff... I'm guessing the carpet delaminated..

 

[FB7777]

It's difficult to tell in the pics but the last one looks like the surrounding area is still wet

May have overwet the area and caused the backing to swell

Remove the cabinet and try to stretch

If it delaminated , it's possible the combination of the oils in the thermometer and or the Prochem solvent caused it



Tough spot, either way you have to make it right

At least if you attempt a stretch you can blame it on the thermometer

Good luck!

 

[Brian H]

I have seen something similar that happen a few times. It was probably a substance similar to Odorless Mineral Spirits in the thermometer and that is causing the carpet backing in that area to swell. If you have dealt with OMS in the past, you know it takes a while to dry, especially in the backing of the carpet. Your cleaning did not cause the problem.

I would stick an air mover on that spot and leave it for a few days, maybe even a week or more. It would be better if you can get that air flow under the carpet, but placing on top works, it just takes longer. Explain to the customer that the "oil" caused the issue and because it got into the backing it will take a bit of time to evaporate out. That really should be all that you have to do.

Do not re-stretch the carpet until you have tried something like what I described.

Oh and tell them not to use any candles or open flame in that room or area while the air mover is running. It looks like a living area, so they shouldn't have a gas stove or gas clothes dryer, but those also should not be used in that area. The evaporating OMS will combine with the oxygen to give the room or stove or dryer (and the clothes in it) a burnt kerosene odor.

 

[FB7777]

If I was the homeowner, my response to that would be " bullshit, why didn't it swell before you cleaned it ?"

I'd also be annoyed that someone was deflecting the issue by giving me advice on how not to burn my house down

 

[Brian H]

If I was the homeowner, my response to that would be " bullshit, why didn't it swell before you cleaned it ?"

I'd also be annoyed that someone was deflecting the issue by giving me advice on how not to burn my house down

Fred, We really don't know the timeline between the spill and the cleaning, so I can't really address that response. If the cleaning happened a few days after the spill, I would still suggest waiting several days with an air mover blowing over the area. As long as I have agreed to restretch the carpet if it doesn't go down, what does the homeowner have to lose by waiting an extra week or so. The alternative is to restretch the carpet ASAP (in the above example it does have a pattern to it) and hope when it eventually does shrink back it does't cause other visual issues.

We also see carpet swell after regular cleaning. Waiting a few days is not going to hurt anything.

I apologize if I wasn't clear about the potential for an odor in the home. The odor would only be caused by the presence of OMS being evaporated into the air and mixing with an open flame. There is no concern with any type of increased fire hazard, only the smell of "burnt kerosene" as the oily product evaporates from the carpet. No OMS, no odor!! The customer is already annoyed, so it's better to let them know in advance what might happen.

I have been in the business long enough to have had issues over the years using both cleaning products and protectors that use Odorless Mineral Spirits as part of their chemistry. Over the years I have managed the work of cleaning crews on probably more than a million jobs, so yeah I have seen my share of problems. Heck, I remember a crew kicking over a bucket of OMS many years ago and spilling at least a gallon on a customer's carpet. Even after extracting and cleaning there was a area that looked exactly like the picture above. It was next to a wall and we were able to disengage the carpet from the tackless and get an air mover blowing. It turned out fine and all we had to do was wait a week and reattach the carpet.

 

[SamIam]

Hi Everyone

I was called to a house on Friday after a cat knocked over a Galileo thermometer which broke, spilling an oily substance on the carpet. I flushed the area out with prochem power solvent, rinsed the carpet out with water and gave the area a clean. I couldnt smell/feel any of the oily substance once I had finished.

I had a call from a the customer this morning to say the carpet has rippled. Photos below, I would appreciate ideas on why this might have occurred. It is a wool carpet with a jute backing. Standard domestic installation, tackless strips and stretched into place.

I am returning on Wednesday, once they have cleared the contents of the cabinet, to lift the carpet and inspect the backing. I am hoping that I can rectify this by simply re-stretching the carpet. I don't think the carpet has de-laminated but wont know this for sure until I lift it. The concrete floor over which the carpet is laid is quite uneven, maybe this has something to do with it.

Would appreciate any feedback.

Thanks
Gordon


View attachment 76279 View attachment 76279 View attachment 76280

Did you
Pull up a corner and check the backing?

Is something g they’re telling you?

It will probably flatten out in a day or two

If not weights and a carpet syringe with some latex glue

 

[Gordy]

Thank everyone for taking the time to respond, I appreciate it. I agree it is important to let the carpet dry before attempting a re-stretch. I will let you know how it goes

 

[SamIam]

From the looks of the pictures, I can see a slight ring around the bump.

What they spilled combined with your heroic efforts, probably caused the swelling, you probably know but jute left to wet will brown out bad.

Also if you look at the backing it would be a reddish brown color if it’s jute.

I’ve come across a few jute backed carpet recently they were real old.

Hope it’s polypropelene and settles on it’s own.

If it does you may need to do a light mist and towel on and water ring.

 

[The Great Oz]

You know the backing is jute. The next question is; the secondary or the primary or both?

The carpet looks like a contemporary style, so it may have a jute secondary over a polypropylene primary, which would make it act just like every synthetic you've seen. Even woven wool carpet can have synthetics in the backing and will grow with moisture.

Delamination is a concern, which could be due to the original oil or your solvent. If you do what Mr. Hanna suggests and the carpet still has ripples, you may have to work some new latex into the backing before doing a re-stretch. Otherwise the delaminated carpet will come apart when you put stress on it.

I'll keep my fingers crossed, since you would have to do quite a bit more work to keep the pattern straight. The pattern will skew if you restretch that area only.

 

[Gordy]

View attachment 76327

 

[Gordy]

I went back to the house today, lifted the carpet and inspected the backing. Photos below.

The carpet is still damp as was the underlay. I have cut the underlay out, folded the carpet back and left an airmover to dry it out.

There is no obvious sign of delamination. It does look to me
like the backing of the carpet has swollen or distorted, causing this rippling effect.

For two reasons I suspect the rippling was caused by the liquid in the thermometer rather than the power solvent that I used:
1) There is an area with a slight orange colour in the centre of the wet area. This area smells like the liquid in the thermometer and also happens to be where the worst of the rippling is located
2) I have used power solvent before to flush out oil spills, on similar types of carpet and not had problems with rippling.

I will go back early next week to reassess. Hopefully it is dry and the ripples have gone. If not I may have to make a call on when to re-stretch it. However this would be a last resort, it would be difficult not to distort the pattern to some degree.

For future reference does anyone have suggestions on how to remove oily substances from a carpet without using solvents?

Many Thanks

 

[BIG WOOD]

I think this one situation is where both sides of the carpet needed attention. It's not like urine where you can flood it with your product from the top side only. If you flooded the area with delimonene, it'd never rinse out properly.

If I were you, I'd suggest knee kicking the carpet back to place after it dried, and if it needed power stretching, then they'll have to fork out hiring that job out, or if you power stretch, I feel they are partly to blame and should pay you part of your fees to cover cost to come out and time. If they're not understanding about who's fault this is, then I'd do as they wish and fire them as a customer .

 

[Mikey P]

Is the round light spot in the middle where you used the gel?

@Jim Pemberton what do you think he should do?

 

[Jim Pemberton]

You know the backing is jute. The next question is; the secondary or the primary or both?
The carpet looks like a contemporary style, so it may have a jute secondary over a polypropylene primary, which would make it act just like every synthetic you've seen. Even woven wool carpet can have synthetics in the backing and will grow with moisture.
Delamination is a concern, which could be due to the original oil or your solvent. If you do what Mr. Hanna suggests and the carpet still has ripples, you may have to work some new latex into the backing before doing a re-stretch. Otherwise the delaminated carpet will come apart when you put stress on it.
I'll keep my fingers crossed, since you would have to do quite a bit more work to keep the pattern straight. The pattern will skew if you restretch that area only.

I have little to add to this advice.

I agree that the problem was more likely caused by the spill than the solvent.

I don't know of a way to remove the oily material without the use of even more dry solvent spotter that will very likely create more damage. This needs to remain the customer's problem, and you need to back carefully away from this issue and not take ownership of the damage in anything you say and do.

 

[Mikey P]

I'd suggest getting it patched.

 

[Jim Pemberton]

I'd suggest getting it patched.

A "bonded insert" sounds much better (and its worth more money)

I spend more of my time throwing bricks than roses at the IICRC, but you got to give them credit for terms that sound like they not just worth more money, but also that don't infer shoddy workmanship that devalues the item.

 

[Nomad74]

Man, some jobs you just wish you never had. I've learned from this thread when involving oil spills always admonish the customer of the possible pre existing damage. Oil is no joke. I once put a stupid Glade-plugin on a dresser. The oil leaked out and removed the finish. It cost me $500 to have that dresser refinished.

Everytime I see one of those Glade things in a house, I curse.

 

[ruff]

One of the issues that he needs to be concerned about is cellulosic browning. The jute has been exposed to moisture for prolonged time.
It will be beneficial to let the wet area dry upside down, so if there is browning it will wick towards the back.

As silly as it may sound, I found out that sometime laying a flat heavy object on the buckled area, helps it dry and stay flat as the tension in the fiber decreases. Just make sure if you do, to leave a large flap at the edge [In other words don't create a crease (pressed down folded area) that will need to be taken out and is not as easy as you'd think.]

P.S. Damon. Aren't you lucky?! In this very board we can teach you to curse in multiple languages. Contact Zee for Hungarian.

Jim,
I'd love to see a "Bonded Patch" that is not very visible on that carpet. It will take someone who's really good at that.

 

[Mikey P]

Just a thought, but what about packing both sides in Host or similar absorbant compound and weighing it down like Ofer suggested

 

[Jim Pemberton]

I'd love to see a "Bonded Patch" that is not very visible on that carpet. It will take someone who's really good at that.

Yes, its not a "hack and plug" job.

I have a friend who used to teach a carpet repair course for us who had students doing "just about" invisible repairs in a day. If they make the cuts without damaging the carpet yarn, and especially if they make in in a rhomboid shape, not a square, you really have a difficult time finding the repair.

Here is the "big but":

Unless the repair is being done in a non trafficked part of the carpet, your donor piece is new, and the surrounding carpet is worn. Even if there isn't much wear, the repair ends up looking like a bad hairpiece. No amount of surgical skill can help there.

 

[Pioneer Floorcare]

Likely the liquid was glycol. I have had good success with it by cutting out the soaked pad, putting a subsurface extraction tool on the backing and flushing from the face with water from my pressure hose, then clean as normal two days later

 

[J Scott W]

Yes, glycol.

I did like Scott Turnkett. Used really hot water. Misted carpet with a diluted citrus sovlent first but not so much as to harm the latex backing.

 

[SamIam]

I went back to the house today, lifted the carpet and inspected the backing. Photos below.

The carpet is still damp as was the underlay. I have cut the underlay out, folded the carpet back and left an airmover to dry it out.

There is no obvious sign of delamination. It does look to me
like the backing of the carpet has swollen or distorted, causing this rippling effect.

For two reasons I suspect the rippling was caused by the liquid in the thermometer rather than the power solvent that I used:
1) There is an area with a slight orange colour in the centre of the wet area. This area smells like the liquid in the thermometer and also happens to be where the worst of the rippling is located
2) I have used power solvent before to flush out oil spills, on similar types of carpet and not had problems with rippling.

I will go back early next week to reassess. Hopefully it is dry and the ripples have gone. If not I may have to make a call on when to re-stretch it. However this would be a last resort, it would be difficult not to distort the pattern to some degree.

For future reference does anyone have suggestions on how to remove oily substances from a carpet without using solvents?

Many Thanks

View attachment 76328 View attachment 76329 View attachment 76330

Your on the right track let dry completely then see what happens if the backing settles.

 

[SamIam]

Your on the right track let dry completely then see what happens if the backing settles.

Here’s a thought did you ask the customer once they spilled did they try to remove it themselves ?

Because that’s really wet for along time!

 

[Gordy]

We were on-site a few hours after the spill occurred so I don't think the customer did anything other than mop up the spill with a towel.

I can't see how a bonded insert would work in this situation. The carpet has had 9 years of wear and has most likely faded so any donor piece would be very obvious.

I have had carpet ripple to a lesser degree before from just a straight clean and that reset itself as it dried. Fingers crossed this example will do the same.