Saffire Scientific TM's

[Bill Bruders]

I'd be thinking that when I look at some of the "big name" machines out there that try to fool cleaners into believeing they are offering new technology

Bill, what makes the Sapphires "technologically new"?

Thanks

..L.T.A.

The heat exchange system is quite a bit different than what Prochem, Hydra or BLUEline is using as well as the simple way the heat is controlled and the results are much better as well. We expect that we will recieve a patent on the heat exchange system based on it's unique design. Also there are far less parts involved in this heat exchanger that can go bad. I'd suggest when you get a chance to look at one do so or come to Mikefest and I will make sure you get a chance to experience the difference.
It's worth reminding people that Mike Roden who is pretty well know for being the engineer behind Prochems Catalytic heat exchange system as well as the perosn who designed the current heater core type designs used today by most manufacturers designed this heat exchanger. So while we might be a new brand we have over 30 years of truckmount design and manufacturing experience

 

[Mikey P]

Did Roden optimize the units for 06 flow?


Or higher, hopefully...

 

[Bill Bruders]

The heat exchanger design allows for optimized efficiency in heat exchange and vacuum. When you refer to flow I understand that to be capability to maintain heat at high flow rates. The factor that most impacts that is available BTU's X efficiency. One way to measure this is to compare the water temperature coming out of the heat exchanger to the exhuast temperature of the gases exiting the heqat exchanger the closer these to measurements are the more efficiant the heat exchange method.

 

[Lee Stockwell]

One area that most systems overlook is the ability to accumulate and modulate heat in the fresh water tank. Of course this mandates a heat-tolerant pump.

more...

 

[hogjowl]

Bill:

Was that a yes, or a no?

 

[Guest]

Pretty sure he's saying 'no, but don't worry about it, my flow is sufficient for you.'

 

[Bill Bruders]

What I'm saying is that any manufacturer who states that they optimize for flow is feeding marketing hype. Flow is a result of pump capacity. So if thats the criteria with a 1500 PSI pump at 5 gallons can clearly provide flow above the .06 level.

 

[sweendogg]

No Bill,

What they want to know is when running high flow wands at say a 09 to 15 flow, will the HX be able to maintain good heat or will the heat fall off as the flow increases? There are truckmounts already in our industry that can support the high heat these cleaners desire with increased flow. Now presuming you built the TMs to handle the high flow of a Stryker wand, then you should be able to confidently say yes that at higher flow rates you will still have great heat.

 

[Shawn Forsythe]

What users need to do is ask manufacturers to state BTU output of their equipment. On fuel fired units, LPG and diesel/kero, input specifications are given, which is at least a start. However, if outputs are stated, then across the board you should be able to compare the abilities of any piece of equipment. Indeed, you should be able to determine the approximate continuous temperature capability at any flow rate, albeit the figure would not be real world since nobody cleans with continuous flow. But they do often exceed the desirable rise in temp for a chosen flow. With BTU output known, you could know at what flow rate performance would drop lower than your desired/need level. And, at least it would give a means to have relative information on differing equipment.

 

[sweendogg]

What users need to do is ask manufacturers to state BTU output of their equipment. On fuel fired units, LPG and diesel/kero, input specifications are given, which is at least a start. However, if outputs are stated, then across the board you should be able to compare the abilities of any piece of equipment. Indeed, you should be able to determine the approximate continuous temperature capability at any flow rate, albeit the figure would not be real world since nobody cleans with continuous flow. But they do often exceed the desirable rise in temp for a chosen flow. With BTU output known, you could know at what flow rate performance would drop lower than your desired/need level. And, at least it would give a means to have relative information on differing equipment.

Yeah exactly what he said.

 

[Bill Bruders]

Folks I understand the question Mike posted, my comments have been driven by what I consider to be a bit of "marketing science" rather than the real world stuff. Lets start with the term Optimized, heres what dictionary.com has to say about the word itself.
op?ti?mize??–verb (used with object)
1. to make as effective, perfect, or useful as possible.
2. to make the best of.

So I could answer the question yes the heat exchanger has been optiimized for high flow but I feel that is misleading. Thats why I don't agree with Shawn that the statement can be made about a Vortex. As you increase flow, heat will go down we all know that, since size of the jets control flow, solution pressure control flow, time in the heat exchanger (controlled by flow) impacts heat. Available BTU's times efficiency of the heat exchange system being used (oil and propane burners included) equals heat. The laws of Thermal Dynamics dictate a big part of the answer to this question.

As for the approximate jetting of our wand..... the Stryker provides 1 gallon per minute continous flow which is equal to a 6 jet ot 4 1.5's or ...... which by the way became the standard becasue of the IICRC requirement of 1 gallon per minute if my memory is not failing me.

So here's my answer, we are getting the very best transfer of available BTU's (125,000 per US gallon before use to run the engine). Our testing shows we are 10% better in regards to this transfer than our competitors. Now before someone with a 150,000 BTU burner stands up and shoots I can make hotter water please remember that if you have more BTU's available of course you have the potential for more heat. All that being said as the flow goes up the temp will go down, on every machine we build Vortex included. So far we haven't been able to create more heat than a gallon of gas (or diesel) can provide. If that day comes I will collect the millions of dollars we will get from the oil industry and retire never to bother the cleaning industry again.

Have I confused everyone or am I the only one with a headache..

 

[hogjowl]

You've just about talked me out of buying one.

 

[Jim Pemberton]

That's a relief...........

 

[hogjowl]

No T-shirt for YOU!

 

[Jim Pemberton]

I think for this favor Legends will give me a full set of apparel.

I'll send my clothing and shoe sizes in a PM to Bill Bruders later tonight.

 

[FB7777]

having seen Marty post for the last decade, one thing is glaringly obvious

NOONE IN THEIR RIGHT MIND WOULD WANT HIM FOR A CUSTOMER


he initially owned a weinie-mount, spent a couple years on the boards asking questions about virtually every machine in existance and then decided on purchasing ...



another weinie-mount


Now he owns a V and is looking once again?


If it wasn't just a plea for attention you would have purchased a Butler years ago and been done with it


Fred

PS you wanna be my roomie in Tennesee?

 

[hogjowl]

If you think I am going to put Junior in a V, then you are out of your mind!

He can barely drive his pick-up!

 

[Bill Bruders]

Shawn
Your post proves my point people in this industry have been sold marketing hype rather than the facts. When someone tries to explain whats really taking place the marketers use the terrible "engineer" word as if its the goal of engineers to confuse people with science. I will try this one more time then I say No Mas!
We designed our machines to produce the hottest water we could given the available energy from a 16 horse power motor a 20 horse power motor and now a 35 horse power motor. When designing a truckmount you start by capturing all the available heat you can get not by what the flow of the wand is going to be I hope you will agree. (thats why a Vortex heats water between the jobs am I correct?) So nobody optimizes for the wand jetting, they may provide under jetted wands to hide the lack of heat. Hm......

Finally in regards to this comment

The Vortex produces more BTU's of cleaning water than is contained in one gallon of diesel fuel during the cleaning process. But in all fairness it does it because it collects the majority of it while driving between jobs. If the Vortex were to rely solely on the BTU's created while the machine was running it could never do it though. But None the less - The V DOES produce more BTU's than the gallon of diesel it uses while the machine is turning the blower.

You are a true marketer and salesman my friend.

 

[TimP]

The simple question is what will the temp gauge read when continuously running 1.5 gallons of water per minute through the machine.

I'd be amazed with a 190-200 degree result. Because given a duty cycle there is a time for the machine to catch up. Which means real world #'s would be better.

Anyways it would be nice to get a # so that we would know that the machine should produce.

 

[ruff]

Bill,
As you may have already found out, there are generally two types of cleaners here:
Group 1: The shall we call them, performance fanatics, push the envelope types and or 'Gee I confuse my ego with the power of my machine."

Group 1 is the loudest and if you do not satisfy them, you may be ridiculed, abused and or become a persona non grata. You have been forewarned, proceed at your own risk.

Though group two does care about heat we also care greatly about dependability and ease of maintenance. Group two, though considerably less noisy and combatant, represents I suspect the majority of your potential clients.

We already know that you machines will take less space. That's great and much needed. What other good reasons are there for us to buy your machine?

Will the machine produce high heat (approximately what temp) at the wand at a reasonable flow?
Is it built to last? (Hardy, durable and dependable machine?) Please explain why.
Is it made from quality parts? Which?
Is it easy to maintain by a non mechanically inclined person? Is it hard to reach due to reduced foot print?
Were there compromises made to achieve reduced foot print like choking blower. reduced plumbing size, sharp turns in the vacuum path that compromise/reduce airflow?
If things go wrong, cost and availability of replacement parts?
Are the parts proprietary or readily available?
What length of hose can you run yet maintain good suction and heat for a single wand?
Is it quiet?
Are there going to be plenty of places to service it?
Gas consumption?

Thanks and good luck
Ofer

 

[Shawn Forsythe]

This whole thread is becoming a dance.

Any self respecting R&D department will run output tests to determine the efficiency of various tested heating systems at the prototype stage. Those figures are easily calculated to BTU output for comparison purposes. Only with a "Vortex type" heat storage system do things get a little more complicated. For all others, it is the epitome of simplicty to state BTU output to put every question in this thread to rest.

Let's take a Little Giant #3 heater. Rated input is 120,000 BTU's/hr. For our purposes here this figure is useless to judge output performance, because all it tells us is how much fuel is being burned.

Little Giant DOES however publish output measurements. Something no HX TM OEM in this industry has ever done, that I am aware. Their(little Giant's) tested output is 150 Gallons per hour water flow with a 60° Rise Fahrenheit or 75 Gallons per hour water flow with a 120°Rise Fahrenheit. Knowing that water weighs 8.33 pounds per gallon, these figures translate into an output of 74970 BTU's per hour for the Little Giant #3 heater.

150 Gallons x 8.33 = 1249.5 lbs x 60 degree rise = 74970 BTU's/hr output
Where 1 BTU is defined as 1 pound water heated 1 degree F.

If we have a wand using a specified pressure and wand jet opening pushing out 1.5 GPM, then by calculation...
1.5 gpm equals 749.7 lbs per hour = 100 degree rise (input 70, output 170)
Continuous wide open output would be 170 degrees F. if the input temp is 70 degrees F.

Moreover....
If we have a wand using a specified pressure and wand jet opening pushing out 1.0 GPM, then by calculation...
1 gpm equals 499.8 lbs per hour = 150 degree rise (input 70, output 220)
Continuous wide open output would be 220 degrees F. if the input temp is 70 degrees F.

Sure, these figures won't translate to actual real world outputs, for one reason alone... We don't operate our wands on a 100% duty cycle. Instead, users cycle their wands with cleaning strokes and dry strokes, taking occasional breaks to move furniture, take a breath, etc.

But, and this is the big point. Any user can determine a "worst case scenario" and answer the question, "will my jet arrangement produce satisfactory results?", even if the user is heavy/wide open on the trigger. But of even greater value is the knowledge of the actual output capacity of the equipment for comparison purposes. If you know the BTU output of a machine you can compare in fair relative terms the capability of others you are also considering.


By no means am I endorsing a Little Giant by this example.. I only use them because they are an easy example of the solution to the question at hand. That question being... "How can we compare the relative heat capability of TM equipment in a simple manner so as to determine whether with the flow capability of my particular wand will it potentially produce adequate cleaning temps?"

 

[Jimbo]

Hey Shawn...It's ok to wear pink...in case you have not heard while living in the banana republic!


Here is the car I get to drive:

 

[Bob Foster]

Lots of people running hiflow on heat exchange TMs - even some of the new premium ones cannot maintain their heat single wanding at the real world temperature requirements of today's carpet cleaner.

The ability to run 220 with high flow with 5 jet or up to something like the Studebaker wand without running down the water temperature is a major deal maker or breaker.

So people can say and explain all they want.

When the machines roll out at MikeFest the very first thing 9 out of 10 cleaners are going to do is jack the heat up and squeeze the trigger of a high flow wand and hold it open with a lie detector. Truth or consequences... no talk needed.

 

[cu]

thats a nice car jimbo....but what you think of the ss tm,s

 

[Mikey P]

I belong to group 1 and two on Ofer's list.
How can that be?








Second question for Bill..


How much to replace the HX on the 457 (which I predict will be your best seller for a while)?

 

[sweendogg]

I belong to one and two. And love reading the technical jargon. So far I see I clean off at MF6 as well as a truckmount suck off to see who heats and sucks for the best buck!

 

[Bill Bruders]

Second question for Bill..


How much to replace the HX on the 457 (which I predict will be your best seller for a while)?[/quote]

Just because I have to the the new machine is called the 454 Big Block (some car nuts may see the corRelation between the number and the name.

As for the cost of the heat exchanger we don't offer it for sale as a complete unit because you never have to buy it that way!!! Actually its modular in design, but better yet its 100% stainless steel and welded or bolted together so if you sprang a leak it can simply be welded to repair it. There are no burner rings, nozzles, custom $400 heater cores, special solenoid valves etc. to replace. This machine is so simple in design that when people get a chance to really check it out the question they keep asking is why hasn't that been done before.

 

[Mikey P]

How about you have one in pieces at M6F that we can put back together?



Now that would be a hit and a huge education for many here.



HUGE!

 

[Bill Bruders]

We can do that, actually we had our first service tech training class this past Monday in Prescott and as part of the training (which is just one day) included building a compete heat exchanger

 

[Mikey P]

I think we should pick two of the more wrench savvy members here to build a 454 up over the two day period.

if it actually runs by Saturday night they win a neatO gift.