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Great post David!! That's just how I see it...
SFS, HP, or JP or ??
- Thread starter Ron Werner
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Ron Werner
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It is all in the delivery, ie how its sold.
You sell it well on your home page.
I'll let you know how she feels about my service after I clean the house, btw 1500sf on 3 floors, 24 stairs, 13 ft sofa sectional. The client that referred me is a 3 time repeat client.
But even a spray and suck busn will get it looking clean. Your website is selling your scrubbing step, which is even in the cleaning standard.
So isn't the difference between a successful busn and a dying busn not whether they clean fast or slow but how well they convey their message to the customer, ie their marketing? Everyone gets it looking clean, from the bait and switch to the budget cleaner to the extreme professional (not referring to myself as such), from the padder to the Big Truck HWE unit. There are very successful cleaners up and down the spectrum.
It also depends on their drive, how hungry they are, how motivated, what they are working for. WIthout the dream, even the best cleaner/busn will head south eventually.
Glad things have turned around for you, what did you change?
What other methods would you suggest to remove the dry particulate?
You sell it well on your home page.
I'll let you know how she feels about my service after I clean the house, btw 1500sf on 3 floors, 24 stairs, 13 ft sofa sectional. The client that referred me is a 3 time repeat client.
But even a spray and suck busn will get it looking clean. Your website is selling your scrubbing step, which is even in the cleaning standard.
So isn't the difference between a successful busn and a dying busn not whether they clean fast or slow but how well they convey their message to the customer, ie their marketing? Everyone gets it looking clean, from the bait and switch to the budget cleaner to the extreme professional (not referring to myself as such), from the padder to the Big Truck HWE unit. There are very successful cleaners up and down the spectrum.
It also depends on their drive, how hungry they are, how motivated, what they are working for. WIthout the dream, even the best cleaner/busn will head south eventually.
Glad things have turned around for you, what did you change?
What other methods would you suggest to remove the dry particulate?
daniel@procarpet
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:roll:
Bob Foster said:
Yes, Bob - by "All" I meant that all those who are over-delivering or under-delivering are likely overcharging. Those who have struck the right balance, by definition, are providing tremendous value.
The changes I have made have had a positive impact on all areas of my business. I came into 2011 with high hopes; and a few times those hopes seemed misplaced. However, I am thankful that I can say right now those hopes seem to have been well-founded. Q4 historically has been my "make or break" quarter, and my October Q4 kick-off is getting off to its strongest start since 2006.
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I think I'm going to go to SFS in March (Il).. I really think It will be great for MY business!
i]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98958txVSrEi]
i]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98958txVSrEi]
Ron Werner
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dday said:
The IICRC Carpet Cleaning Standard has the steps
Groom
Prevac
Prespray
Groom
Rinse
Groom
No matter what the method, the first 2 were the same for all. Few do both if even one. Most jump right to the prespray. Each time I think about listening to the advice here to scrap the prevac I get into a house where I would have left a mess of particulate. If I didn't get anything I wouldn't bother.
Why do you bother to scrub with a CRB when you "could" get away with using a stronger solution or a little more dwell time and achieve the same resultant appearance? Doesn't it take extra time and effort that you really don't need to make it look clean?
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I vacuum houses that have pet hair issues, other then that all fine particulate gets flushed into my waste tank(Why wouldn't it?)..
Bob Foster
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My perspective and for those of you who don't know I'm in the same area as Ron and I have worked side by side with Ron helping each other out on many occasions. So I know his market and him very well.
Areas circled in red in Ron's service area.
Area in the black rectangle is my service area.
We really don't compete with each other. Ron's area is oriented more to the south as he lives in Sooke. I live in Sidney and I have deliberately chosen to concentrate and focus within the black rectangle. I do not market outside of that area.
So here it goes Ron...
Your website is horrible for the following reasons.
Its ugly
The flash hides you from better ranking
The site is out of register with at least Firefox and Chrome
It doesn't navigate correctly
Its 180 degrees off target in its consumer message
There is no call to action
In short, its a total loss. No ifs, ands or buts.
Here is what has turned you inside out both in your own frustration and in the eyes of customers. Your are obsessed with justifying your price. Regardless of how much the customer might have paid in the end you leave the job you feel a lot better than I think most of your customers are really feeling. They recognize that you take great pride in your work but for the most part are being kind to you by not really expressing what I think too many are honestly feeling.
The unreasonable period of time you spend in a customers home obsessing with your vacuum getting the extra 20% of dry particulate out of a carpet (of which 75% of what is left will be picked up by the flush and suck of your TM anyway) takes all the additional profit you could make because you spend all the unnecessary time working on the carpet and inconveniencing your customer at the same time. At the least, if you insist on this you need to use a helper to reduce the time and maybe more effectively up sell.
Refrain from getting too personal with a customer, their home or their possessions. It may not seem like it to you but many are very spooked by this. Try and be brief but not abrupt, pleasant, concerned for their satisfaction, thank them and leave.
Back to your website. Nobody but another carpet cleaner wants to see all that geeky wanding and vacuuming crap. It would be like Burger King spending 50 seconds of a 60 second commercial talking about their grill instead of smiling customers, plates of mouth watering food and helpful staff. You should be selling fresh smelling home, safety of kids and pets, and pride of appearance. Another example. Your site is 90% about working with tools. It would be like a landscaper showing 90% of the website about digging and raking instead of showing a family enjoying a beautiful yard that was constructed in a quick clean efficient manner.
Now to the telephone. Telling people if they are looking for a low price you would be glad to refer them to a budget cleaner that might more fit their needs would be like a Mercedes salesman telling a person who when into their showroom that I'm not even going to try and convince you I think you should go to a Kia lot. Customers call you because they have dirty carpets and you should have the wits to tell them lots of things (BENEFITS NOT PROCEDURES) to convince them with including flexibility in scheduling, range of services and saving them money by making their carpets look almost new or new.
Funny how you think they are all about price and yet YOU are all about price. You should be all about NET.
If you charged 20 to 25% less AND spend 25% less time in a customer's home you would have three times as much business. If you turned your website around to be customer friendly and customer benefit oriented you would have 3 times as many phone calls from it. If you changed your response on the phone you would get double the bookings. I think you might even want to try a two month experiment with Full Circle answering your phone.
There is one very simple question you need to ask yourself and be brutally honest with. If you are such a good cleaner as you think you are in the eyes of your customers why is it that your referrals from existing customers are not dramatically growing? It's not the economy.
Let go Ron. You are too committed to doing a good job to not deserve being rewarded for your perseverance.
If you did what I suggest you would double your net profit in the next 18 months. All though this could be up for some debate, you seriously should consider re-branding your company. If it was me I most definitely would.
Areas circled in red in Ron's service area.
Area in the black rectangle is my service area.
We really don't compete with each other. Ron's area is oriented more to the south as he lives in Sooke. I live in Sidney and I have deliberately chosen to concentrate and focus within the black rectangle. I do not market outside of that area.
So here it goes Ron...
Your website is horrible for the following reasons.
Its ugly
The flash hides you from better ranking
The site is out of register with at least Firefox and Chrome
It doesn't navigate correctly
Its 180 degrees off target in its consumer message
There is no call to action
In short, its a total loss. No ifs, ands or buts.
Here is what has turned you inside out both in your own frustration and in the eyes of customers. Your are obsessed with justifying your price. Regardless of how much the customer might have paid in the end you leave the job you feel a lot better than I think most of your customers are really feeling. They recognize that you take great pride in your work but for the most part are being kind to you by not really expressing what I think too many are honestly feeling.
The unreasonable period of time you spend in a customers home obsessing with your vacuum getting the extra 20% of dry particulate out of a carpet (of which 75% of what is left will be picked up by the flush and suck of your TM anyway) takes all the additional profit you could make because you spend all the unnecessary time working on the carpet and inconveniencing your customer at the same time. At the least, if you insist on this you need to use a helper to reduce the time and maybe more effectively up sell.
Refrain from getting too personal with a customer, their home or their possessions. It may not seem like it to you but many are very spooked by this. Try and be brief but not abrupt, pleasant, concerned for their satisfaction, thank them and leave.
Back to your website. Nobody but another carpet cleaner wants to see all that geeky wanding and vacuuming crap. It would be like Burger King spending 50 seconds of a 60 second commercial talking about their grill instead of smiling customers, plates of mouth watering food and helpful staff. You should be selling fresh smelling home, safety of kids and pets, and pride of appearance. Another example. Your site is 90% about working with tools. It would be like a landscaper showing 90% of the website about digging and raking instead of showing a family enjoying a beautiful yard that was constructed in a quick clean efficient manner.
Now to the telephone. Telling people if they are looking for a low price you would be glad to refer them to a budget cleaner that might more fit their needs would be like a Mercedes salesman telling a person who when into their showroom that I'm not even going to try and convince you I think you should go to a Kia lot. Customers call you because they have dirty carpets and you should have the wits to tell them lots of things (BENEFITS NOT PROCEDURES) to convince them with including flexibility in scheduling, range of services and saving them money by making their carpets look almost new or new.
Funny how you think they are all about price and yet YOU are all about price. You should be all about NET.
If you charged 20 to 25% less AND spend 25% less time in a customer's home you would have three times as much business. If you turned your website around to be customer friendly and customer benefit oriented you would have 3 times as many phone calls from it. If you changed your response on the phone you would get double the bookings. I think you might even want to try a two month experiment with Full Circle answering your phone.
There is one very simple question you need to ask yourself and be brutally honest with. If you are such a good cleaner as you think you are in the eyes of your customers why is it that your referrals from existing customers are not dramatically growing? It's not the economy.
Let go Ron. You are too committed to doing a good job to not deserve being rewarded for your perseverance.
If you did what I suggest you would double your net profit in the next 18 months. All though this could be up for some debate, you seriously should consider re-branding your company. If it was me I most definitely would.
Mikey P
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Nicely said Bob.
Ron Werner
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I'd like to hear how you do it Mike.
You've posted some humungous numbers.
How are you selling your customers?
You've posted some humungous numbers.
How are you selling your customers?
Steve Toburen
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Ouch, Ron. Bob's entire post is "Tough Love" and quite well written. You have received some good advice in this thread.Bob Foster said:
For what it is worth I often quote my personal definition of "perfection in business":
"Sufficient for it's intended purpose."
Gotta go catch a plane to Chicago for our last SFS of the year!
Steve Toburen
http://www.SFS.JonDon.com
PS Two more Steve Toburen quotes (I'm full of them):
1. "All things being equal, it is better to have money than not have money."
2. "There is no virtue in poverty."
It sounds like you are going through an introspective analysis of your business and life, Ron. My guess is (with the at times roughshod help of this board) you will emerge at the "sweet spot" in life where you a) love waking up in the morning and b) feel good about your company AND business practices plus c) become wealthy. (There is a huge difference between wealth versus "making a good living".)
I really love this industry and the freedom that it can bring each one of us. So let me leave you with just one more quote:
"Never let anyone else decide what your personal definition of success is."
Best wishes in your personal quest!
Ron Werner said:
First, in my opinion, the standard is flawed and based on a false assumption that makes an old-fashioned vacuum cleaner the only way to remove hair, dirt, grit, and grime.
Second, the reason I "bother" to scrub at all is simple - like you, I want to do the best job I can, including the removal of all the dirt and debris you are obssessed with removing. You do it by spending an hour or more vacuuming. I do it by using the dwell time period after pre-spraying to scrub the carpet. The CRB is extremely effective at pulling hair, lint, dust, grit, grime, sand, ect and so to the surface, all of which is flushed and vacuumed during the extraction process.
I am not cleaning for appearance alone. You are not the only cleaner in your market, on this board, or in this world who really takes pride in his work and do the best he can do. The problem is that you seem sincerely to think that you are.
You need to come down off of your high horse and consider for a moment or two that you are mistaken in your assumptions. After all, if the premises are wrong, so too, by necessity, will be the conclusions. So much of what you say and do about this business in general and your business in particular is based upon false or mistaken assumptions.
Good Luck
Ken Snow
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"Never let anyone else decide what your personal definition of success is."
Quote of the month~ thanks for the reminder Steve.
Quote of the month~ thanks for the reminder Steve.
Brian R
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Damn Bob.....that was "spot on" as I've heard them say.
"Remember, time is money"
-Ben Franklin
I agree with what Ken just quoted as well. But we are just trying to help. I hate to see anyone piss away their life or money....or both.
"Remember, time is money"
-Ben Franklin
I agree with what Ken just quoted as well. But we are just trying to help. I hate to see anyone piss away their life or money....or both.
LisaWagnerCRS
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Ron Werner said:
Ron, this is a great question, because it has a flawed premise that anyone's "system" is going to create success.
It's like fitness and health - there are a BAZILLION books, programs, gyms, trainers... and no one is the "best" - all have success stories.
So the question is not what is POSSIBLE with your choices here, but what is PROBABLE. What are YOU most likely to take action on, and create success with? Because every one of these choices can be successful, or unsuccessful, with the only determining factor being you and your actions.
Joe Polish told me to go take the Strategies course years ago. That was when Jon-Don and Piranha worked a bit more closely together, they recommended Piranha for marketing, and SFS for the business basics. It is a good program. You get a huge binder of materials, which I've never actually implemented into my own company (I have my own systems for rugs) BUT the value came from the conversations and the thinking exercises, especially Chuck Violands numbers part - it truly gave me a new outlook on my company at that time. Toburen as well, I enjoyed the taking "E-Myth" and making it cleaning niche specific. Joe and Steve did an interview together that still gets great reviews on the topic of customer service.
That said... if your marketing is fine, if you are getting the quality clients you want, and are looking more on how to build your business to a point of making it better to delegate, or sell, then take the time to go to SFS. Just getting away from your business a week to focus, and see how others are doing it, will be valuable to you.
Howard build his company by buying 3 (one being a Piranha Member) and merging them. That is not "building" up a company from the trunk of a car. But I'm sure he has some good stuff here and there to share, though he's surrounded by all of the MLM pitchers these days, so if going to a Joe Polish event and not liking having anything "sold" to you makes you uncomfortable, you will feel truly shaken upside down by the ankles at a Howard event. Mostly because he needs the money more than Joe does. =)
However, you can get lots of marketing training for free at www.ilovemarketing.com - and in particular, I'd suggest watching Dean Jackson's video on focusing. Go to the site and type "focus" in the search bar and you will find it. The I Love Marketing event was last week in AZ, we had a packed house... and again that event is like anything here, if you sit in the audience with your arms crossed thinking "where's my magic bullet" then you have already laid out your own plan of failure. There are no magic pills, there are no magic programs that make millions with no work... you need to choose one thing, and get it fully done, and repeat it until you can hand it off for someone else to do. Most business owners are too lazy to do it right, and so they are always looking for that "secret" that does not exist.
The real seed to success is simply that successful people do the things that unsuccessful ones are unwilling to do.
And if you are going to take advice from anyone... make sure it's from people who are actually making more money than you are. Everyone has advice to give, it's just that from most people, it's worthless. You don't take marriage advice from someone divorced 3 times... and you don't take money advice from BD's.
Lisa
P.S. If you want to grow your rug business, and want technical training and marketing and operations systems - then send me an email. In December I'm choosing another 20 companies for my program with Jim Pemberton, but be warned... we are not picking people who buy "make me successful" program and just let them collect dust on the shelf. Our program is active work, and we are looking for people who want trade school specialist training and not magic pills and potions. The only reason I mention that is because I know you Ron, and you are not lazy, and it's time to ramp what you've built up to a new level and have a lot more fun doing what you are doing.
Shane Deubell
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The fact is, nobody can give you a custom made business plan for $1k or whatever. more like $10k or even $30k.
So for that amount of money you will receive templates, ideas only
Now some of us are very independent and like the template but others want more, need more.
You have to decide what level you want: franchise,territory, seminar, etc
Each charges different rates based on the amount of work they put in and money they invest.
Think lisa is on the right track, start off with SFS to learn the basics and then think about how much you want to invest time/money.
So for that amount of money you will receive templates, ideas only
Now some of us are very independent and like the template but others want more, need more.
You have to decide what level you want: franchise,territory, seminar, etc
Each charges different rates based on the amount of work they put in and money they invest.
Think lisa is on the right track, start off with SFS to learn the basics and then think about how much you want to invest time/money.
Jim Martin
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simple version........
your are not going to get anywhere..sitting at a round table starring at each other or swimming with bottom feeders..
...you got what it takes..your just taking it in the wrong direction...
time is money...the more time you spend in a home the more money you just lost....
I don't market myself...the only thing I have done as of late was have Brian do the google thing for me and so far...it has not got me nothing...but google excuses
I don't play with web sites...or any of that type of garbage that waste my time and focus on what I want....
this is not as hard as everyone wants to make it out to be....
all they want is a good quality cleaning at a fair price...give them that and build relationships and you will be where you want to be....get in ..do your best and get the hell back out..
watch your times...lets say you make $100 an hour...and you got a job for 100 bucks...if you spent 1 hours just vacuuming..you already lost money..find ways to be efficient as possible...a good rotary will flush out 99% of all that crap you vacuum out in a 1/8 of the time...
personally...you start getting mixed up with all this other crap out there you start spreading yourself to thin and loose your since of direction....
sorry...there is just not a silver bullet out there..it has to come for you..
your are not going to get anywhere..sitting at a round table starring at each other or swimming with bottom feeders..
...you got what it takes..your just taking it in the wrong direction...
time is money...the more time you spend in a home the more money you just lost....
I don't market myself...the only thing I have done as of late was have Brian do the google thing for me and so far...it has not got me nothing...but google excuses
I don't play with web sites...or any of that type of garbage that waste my time and focus on what I want....
this is not as hard as everyone wants to make it out to be....
all they want is a good quality cleaning at a fair price...give them that and build relationships and you will be where you want to be....get in ..do your best and get the hell back out..
watch your times...lets say you make $100 an hour...and you got a job for 100 bucks...if you spent 1 hours just vacuuming..you already lost money..find ways to be efficient as possible...a good rotary will flush out 99% of all that crap you vacuum out in a 1/8 of the time...
personally...you start getting mixed up with all this other crap out there you start spreading yourself to thin and loose your since of direction....
sorry...there is just not a silver bullet out there..it has to come for you..
hogjowl
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Hey Bob ... if we had a TMF "like" button on this forum, I would have pressed it on that post of yours.
joe harper
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Marty said:
Just use this ButtoN..................." blowme "....!!!!!
NO dIffEraNcE........
prestige cleaner
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staring at their tits,scaring children and kittens with logos....awesome.Mikey P said:
Ron Werner
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typical board BS tooprestige cleaner said:
Ron Werner
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there are a lot of good critiques on here, thank you, wasn't asking for them but thank you. I've some work to do.
There are also, as I pointed out above, some BS statements. Like why the F would you think I'm staring at women's tits and scaring their children. Grow up! Kids laugh at that old logo and my busn has grown every year with it, wasn't scaring anyone except other "marketers", even so, its being changed. Its just not the "professional-look" which was part of the look I wanted.
There's also some comments that are not applicable, like when I tell someone I'll refer them to a good budget cleaner its usually someone that I've prequalified enough to know they are not "my client", they are usually price shoppers, moving out and looking for the cheapest price, OR they are unreasonable in their expectations.
As for the cleaning process and the vacuuming, if you don't want to do it, STFU and quit whining about it when I point out that you may not be getting things as clean as you think. Just about every one of the websites I visit talk about "getting the carpet CLEAN" and/or "doing the best job possible", well then, I'm just pointing out another step that will help you in the process. I know it will take more time, but for ME, I'm willing to put that time in. If you're not willing, then quit trying to pull me down. I vacuum as much as I NEED to, if it takes an hour, it gets an hour. And YES, I do let my clients know and EVERY TIME they say, That makes sense. If someone is going to take a client it will be because of price, NOT because they don't think I can get it clean.
ANd even with that, I'm listening and I'm offering 2nd and 3rd best ways of cleaning, to meet their budget.
And yes, I am price conscious. WHY? Because I charge 55 cents a sf, not the highest in town, but up there. I know a padder that charges 65. I know its a concern so I touch on it with potential clients to prequalify so I'm not wasting their time or mine. But if I drop my price by 25%, I need to work 25% harder to make the same money, rather than do some marketing to find the 10% that want the service I provide. I can drop my service as well which is what I explained above, so I spend 25% less time. And if the phone isn't ringing, I simply need to market to get it ringing and I close well over 50% simply by explaining what and why I do it.
So I've a lot to consider, and I have to weed through all the critigues of my busn to find the answer to my original question to compare JP, HP, and SFS. I was asking more for a friend to pass him the info and for others that may be considering taking some training.
This has been....interesting. Thanks again.
There are also, as I pointed out above, some BS statements. Like why the F would you think I'm staring at women's tits and scaring their children. Grow up! Kids laugh at that old logo and my busn has grown every year with it, wasn't scaring anyone except other "marketers", even so, its being changed. Its just not the "professional-look" which was part of the look I wanted.
There's also some comments that are not applicable, like when I tell someone I'll refer them to a good budget cleaner its usually someone that I've prequalified enough to know they are not "my client", they are usually price shoppers, moving out and looking for the cheapest price, OR they are unreasonable in their expectations.
As for the cleaning process and the vacuuming, if you don't want to do it, STFU and quit whining about it when I point out that you may not be getting things as clean as you think. Just about every one of the websites I visit talk about "getting the carpet CLEAN" and/or "doing the best job possible", well then, I'm just pointing out another step that will help you in the process. I know it will take more time, but for ME, I'm willing to put that time in. If you're not willing, then quit trying to pull me down. I vacuum as much as I NEED to, if it takes an hour, it gets an hour. And YES, I do let my clients know and EVERY TIME they say, That makes sense. If someone is going to take a client it will be because of price, NOT because they don't think I can get it clean.
ANd even with that, I'm listening and I'm offering 2nd and 3rd best ways of cleaning, to meet their budget.
And yes, I am price conscious. WHY? Because I charge 55 cents a sf, not the highest in town, but up there. I know a padder that charges 65. I know its a concern so I touch on it with potential clients to prequalify so I'm not wasting their time or mine. But if I drop my price by 25%, I need to work 25% harder to make the same money, rather than do some marketing to find the 10% that want the service I provide. I can drop my service as well which is what I explained above, so I spend 25% less time. And if the phone isn't ringing, I simply need to market to get it ringing and I close well over 50% simply by explaining what and why I do it.
So I've a lot to consider, and I have to weed through all the critigues of my busn to find the answer to my original question to compare JP, HP, and SFS. I was asking more for a friend to pass him the info and for others that may be considering taking some training.
This has been....interesting. Thanks again.
Bob Foster
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I have the solution for you Ron. You just need to drop off a half a dozen these things at your customers the night before.
x]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1_Ha2Z6f0sx]
x]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1_Ha2Z6f0sx]
Steve Toburen
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Like I've said before, Ron, this group is all about tough (some would say "brutal") love. And as ya admit there have been some good points made.Ron Werner said:
Steve Toburen
http://www.SFS.JonDon.com
PS Ron, re: your point on people being concerned with price it is my contention that the Great Recession has made "haggling" fashionable. So at SFS we've adapted our approach a bit. If the Board Police will let me get away with it you might want to download my "How to Win Over the Value Added Shopper" (While not losing your shirt) Special Report.
http://sfs.jondon.com/8478/resources/sp ... ue-shopper
It is free and if you are absolutely allergic to registering then just email me at steve.toburen@gmail.com and I'll send you the pdf and I will never bother you.
Ron Werner
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I have a toy from my youth that would go around a table like that.
Actually, my father had a toy from his youth that would do that too!
Actually, my father had a toy from his youth that would do that too!
ruff
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- 11,010
- Name
- Ofer Kolton
Interesting.
From a simple question: "SFS,HP or JP or??"
It became an all out assault on Ron's business!
Message to hyenas: Get off the wagon. From the one with the zeal of the new convert of what he considers to be 'true value' to 'Commercial Stevie'.
Some, however, did respond to the actual question- Bless your heart.
From a simple question: "SFS,HP or JP or??"
It became an all out assault on Ron's business!
Message to hyenas: Get off the wagon. From the one with the zeal of the new convert of what he considers to be 'true value' to 'Commercial Stevie'.
Some, however, did respond to the actual question- Bless your heart.
T Monahan
Supportive Member
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2012
- Messages
- 1,673
- Name
- Tom Monahan
I found elements of this thread and especially this quote humorous.
Mikey P
Administrator
- Joined
- Oct 6, 2006
- Messages
- 116,777
wow, this was a great thread.
as far as I know Ron has not changed his business model at all since he asked for advice.
His choice to spend his money going to ICE to look at old toys and a few crappy seminars that wont do him squat, instead of M10F where he could learn from real movers and shakers in this industry proves that.
is what it is.
as far as I know Ron has not changed his business model at all since he asked for advice.
His choice to spend his money going to ICE to look at old toys and a few crappy seminars that wont do him squat, instead of M10F where he could learn from real movers and shakers in this industry proves that.
is what it is.
Shane Deubell
Supportive Member
- Joined
- Jun 30, 2011
- Messages
- 4,052
