Smart Strand "silk"

[Larry Cobb]

However, these soft carpet are being sold, whether we like it or not, in both polyester and nylon, and I think that as professional carpet care experts we need to educate ourselves on the proper care and maintenance requirements of these fibers in order to educate our customers on same and to know how to clean them without causing damage ourselves.

These are expensive carpets purchased by high income people, and should be cleaned often! .... potentially great customers.
. . .
I think it's important that dissatisfied customers of these carpet fibers go back to their local retailers and complain.... so that the retailers stop selling those fiber and style types that are indeed problematic.

Paul is exactly correct . . .

At Experience, the CRI has a full session about these new fine-denier carpets . . .

They had a 70oz and a 100 oz sample of each . . .

They require specials vacuums because they are so dense . . .

Because of the density, Extraction wands REQUIRE a Teflon Glide to even push across the carpets . . .

Customers love the new soft hand, so learn how to deal with them . . .

CRI Slide from presentation . . .

Larry

 

[ruff]

Great discussion and info.

These kind of rugs, wrong fiber choice, improper installation and retailers inability or unwillingness to steer clients to make the right choices, are the very reason I advise all my clients to call me for free advise before they purchase new carpet. Makes for a stronger relationship and enables me to steer them to buy products that will last long and age well.

Unfortunately not all clients take me on that free offer. The ones that do I steer towards the right choices of fiber. construction and advise them about the importance of proper installation.

Luckily for the manufacturer's and retailers, they have the carpet cleaners to blame for issues created by their sub par installations or inability to steer the clients to make the right choice for their specific circumstances. Short sited and self sabotaging comes to mind. However, they seem to think that they will get the client no matter what, as they sell almost all floor covering. Somehow long term relationship and pride in what they do does not seem to be high on their priority list.

 

[hogjowl]

In the end, it IS the mills fault. They, after all, are the only entity with the power to change this situation. From fiber selection and construction all the way to the final installation, they are the only entity in the mix with the power to influence all parties involved.

 

[Ron K]

http://www.mohawkflooring.com/flooring-care-maintenance/vacuumingsoftcarpet/

They make it sound like the only reason to use a recommended vacuum is so that they are easy to push. They don't mention that some vacuums can cause tip blooming.

Mohawk has compiled vacuum recommendations based on the Carpet and Rug Institute Seal of Approval, thorough internal testing and feedback from our customers. For specific information pertaining to vacuum models, please contact the manufacturer directly.

So who tested the Vacuums they recommend and How?

 

[Joel D]

What's smartstrand made out of? I thought it was polyester.

I see tons of poly and many times it has worn traffic lanes within a year of installation. I just cleaned one like that and i have/had a good relationship with the store, so it was very awkward explaining the situation. Stores are in a tough spot cause when they quote a price for good carpet people walk. Especially lately.

I had another embarrasing situation where i installed the carpet myself thru a store and came back to clean it the next year. It was shot. Granted it was very cheap and he had dogs and didnt vacuum much but that was awkward.

Also i can see low weight pad being a problem but what does installation have to do with worn traffic lanes? Unless its loose or wrinkled absolutely nothing.

 

[Joel D]

It would help if the one store i deal with at least sold continuous filament. When i was done installing those non cf polys and went to vacuum after often it would fill up the vac after one room.

 

[Mikey P]

Milk jugs and corn

 

[Buck1955]

And we continue to lose market share to hard surfaces...

 

[hogjowl]

That's my concern. In my opinion, our industry is focused on maintaining low price point to the point of undermining our future.

 

[Ron K]

So are the Vacuuming and cleaning intervals shortened because of the fibers limitations?

 

[Willy P]

The best use for polyester was in the 70's........


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leisure_suit

 

[Paul Demers]

So are the Vacuuming and cleaning intervals shortened because of the fibers limitations?

http://www.mohawkflooring.com/flooring/carpet/smartstrand-silk.aspx

http://caressbyshaw.com/care-warranty/vacuum/1

Over 700 ultra-thin filaments make up each yarn. yarns are very susceptible to texture damage and distortion from an aggressive vacuum, use of high water pressure and non-glided wands when cleaning.

I am not really an expert on cleaning this stuff.... but IMO.... very frequent vacuuming should be performed to prevent fine particulate soil, dead skin cells and alike, from ever becoming deeply embedded in these fibers. As far as cleaning, I think the ability of HWE to flush dirt that has become deeply embedded in these tight twisted yarns to be limited, and you can't use a rotary extractor...... so it seems to me these carpets should be cleaned very often. I think the warranty still only requires 12 to 18 months professional cleaning, but they suggest professional cleaning at the first signs of soiling. I think these carpets would be very difficult to clean if neglected, as aggressive cleaning and scrubbing is not really an option.

 

[glenboy]

These carpets suck...worst soiling problems In the shortest period of time I have ever seen

 

[The Great Oz]

This is just an attempt to bring back the high-level fine denier nylon plush of the eighties. Had all of the same problems, just didn't grab the wand quite as much when cleaning. Just like the previous generation, if it gets trashed nothing short of pulling it up to clean it in a rug shop will get it deep clean. Otherwise you really don't have to do anything special.

That being said, the carpet manufacturers, and especially the carpet retailers, know exactly what kind of problems customers will develop with this carpet. They say they can't get customers to pay extra for nylon, and if they didn't sell poly, they'd go out of business. Unfortunately, Marty is corrrect. Carpet buyers will never admit their own cheapness is why the carpet looks bad so quickly. They'll blame all carpet, just like they did the last time carpet mills tried selling polyester and acrylic fiber carpet.

 

[ruff]

That is putting the blame solely on the consumer, which I disagree with. Yes, we all want to save money, however when things are explained clearly we usually opt for the better more durable product.

I very much doubt that the manufacturers or dealers ever explain to the clients with clear unambiguous language that they are buying an inferior product that will not last long or perform well.

It is the manufacturer and seller's job to make it clear to the consumer, exactly what they are getting for their money. Otherwise they are actively practicing deceit.

 

[Ron K]

Can someone tell me how a 20 year old Nylon Carpet that stills cleans up well and is in good shape is not a great Value and actually is more "Green" than a landfill full of 3 year Polyester!

 

[Zee]

I agree with Ofer but the main question remains: how do we now make it clear to a customer that "no we can not make this like new, even if its only a year old". And I mean how do you explain this 3 page thread in less than 20 seconds...while, the average home owner will have the attention? I noticed the glazed eyes and the complete numbness when I tried explaining the issue. It comes across almost as an excuse. And I had been asked if I think Stanley steemer would be able to clean it??
And that told me that the person didn't understand the word about THEIR problem. To them it sounded like WE don't know what we're doing. And that pisses me off..to be honest.

And the fact that inspectors come out and claim that there is NO problem with the carpet and he got the carpet clean with tap water only..

 

[The Great Oz]

Easy answer to customers? Poly carpet fiber is very soft (they know that) so tiny particles of sand and grit easily put micro scratches in the fiber's surface. this makes the traffic areas look soiled, but when the actual soil is removed the scratches that dull the fiber remain.

Further (if the overall raggedy look is a concern) the fiber lays down and stays down, so even if we groom it to look good now, as soon as you start to walk on it again the previous appearance will return.

"Why did the mill/retailer sell me this crap?" Because the number one reason consumers said they weren't buying carpet was a lack of stain resistance. You have to admit it's hard to stain this stuff.

I very much doubt that the manufacturers or dealers ever explain to the clients with clear unambiguous language that they are buying an inferior product that will not last long or perform well.

Several retailers I met at Surfaces absolutely hated the stuff and were comparing notes on the releases their customers were required to sign if they insisted on "the rhino carpet." Nylon (tied to the price of oil) had gone up so much in price at that time that similar carpet cost twice as much in nylon as poly.

Some retailers liked that price increase, as they were using it to upsell to wool.

 

[hogjowl]

One time I had a customer come into my shop and pick out a 48 oz. poly. I THOROUGHLY explained the disadvantages of the fiber and showed her a 28 oz nylon and I told her she could get for the same price, but it would last over two times longer. Of course, she took the double thick poly. 6 weeks later, she called complaining because her vacuum cleaning marks wouldn't come out of the fiber. I had specifically gone over that with her before she bough the crap.

I called the mill, submitted a claim and the inspector disallowed it. Said it was a characteristic of the fiber. She, of course, went around town telling everybody I had sold her crap goods and the mill wouldn't honor their warranty.

So, after that job, I decided to never offer a polyester carpet again.

My sales went down accordingly.

 

[NobleCarpetCleaners]

Oh hell, I clean yards of this sh... stuff. And its true there are some interesting issues with vacuum cleaners out there as I have even been asked by my local store to "trouble shoot" one for them. Manufacture got involved and everything. Everybody acting like amateurs with a whole bunch of dumb drama.

Here's some reality about this stuff. Cleaned 13 or 14 of these now. Some hammered with country dirt and a couple just lightly soiled. They clean like every other tuffted carpet that ever come off those god forsaken mills when YOU USE YOUR REGULAR cleaning procedures. On my 2nd really hammered job I went along with what the customer who had been completely misinformed just like so many others I have found, that you clean with hot-water-only. I'm gonna say that again for you slooooooooow listeninnnnnnng folks. Some how a bunch of misinformation has been spewed out into the universe concerning the BS fiber marketed as SmartStrand, that you must clean with hooooot water only.

On that job some really hammered traffic lanes were NOT coming clean and mind you I gots 240 coming out the machine. "Are you happy with this", I asked the custy. She replied, "oh hell no, I'm getting my carpet store on the horn. I shut the machine down so we could have fun with this. Big store up in Sacto hums and haws on speaker phone. I said why don't you come down here and I'll let you play with my toys and you show me and the custy how to clean this with hot water. She's laughing like heck, he's getting pissed and gets Shaw on his other line. Mine you he won't bring Shaw on the line with us he's only relaying the Q&A. I tear everyone a new one and Shaw comes back with we never said anything about maintenance cleaning with hot water only, we were/are talking about spot cleaning and to go ahead and clean with your "normal" hwe methods.

After 25 min of that stupidity I fire up my machine, hose down the remaining traffic lanes with my favorite slop, turn on my injection and away we go. Even though I only charged $210 it looked like a million. And oh my the way, cleaned that same custy 2 months ago, freeking hammered when I got there and cleaned up like new. I got one dozen brown eggs and some dear jerky as a tip.....something neither of which Mikey can eat! ha

So, as said above well over a dozen since the first stupid field experience and they all clean like regular nylon carpet and I've yet to find in the warranty any word or clause that says you CAN'T use detergent. Yes there a couple pile heights and densities that really bog down your vacuum brush bar. Even my Proteam has chewed hard on a couple of them. I certainly hope as more and more get cleaned that the urban bs about this hyped up carpet are left in the ditch. Meantime, get on with cleaning them and don't listen to bad information. I've even heard our industry talking heads talking out their ass about this product.

 

[Mikey P]

Send me the eggs.

 

[NobleCarpetCleaners]

ohhhhh, not quite the puritan vegan......=)

 

[Mark Saiger]

Oh hell, I clean yards of this sh... stuff. And its true there are some interesting issues with vacuum cleaners out there as I have even been asked by my local store to "trouble shoot" one for them. Manufacture got involved and everything. Everybody acting like amateurs with a whole bunch of dumb drama.

Here's some reality about this stuff. Cleaned 13 or 14 of these now. Some hammered with country dirt and a couple just lightly soiled. They clean like every other tuffted carpet that ever come off those god forsaken mills when YOU USE YOUR REGULAR cleaning procedures. On my 2nd really hammered job I went along with what the customer who had been completely misinformed just like so many others I have found, that you clean with hot-water-only. I'm gonna say that again for you slooooooooow listeninnnnnnng folks. Some how a bunch of misinformation has been spewed out into the universe concerning the BS fiber marketed as SmartStrand, that you must clean with hooooot water only.

On that job some really hammered traffic lanes were NOT coming clean and mind you I gots 240 coming out the machine. "Are you happy with this", I asked the custy. She replied, "oh hell no, I'm getting my carpet store on the horn. I shut the machine down so we could have fun with this. Big store up in Sacto hums and haws on speaker phone. I said why don't you come down here and I'll let you play with my toys and you show me and the custy how to clean this with hot water. She's laughing like heck, he's getting pissed and gets Shaw on his other line. Mine you he won't bring Shaw on the line with us he's only relaying the Q&A. I tear everyone a new one and Shaw comes back with we never said anything about maintenance cleaning with hot water only, we were/are talking about spot cleaning and to go ahead and clean with your "normal" hwe methods.

After 25 min of that stupidity I fire up my machine, hose down the remaining traffic lanes with my favorite slop, turn on my injection and away we go. Even though I only charged $210 it looked like a million. And oh my the way, cleaned that same custy 2 months ago, freeking hammered when I got there and cleaned up like new. I got one dozen brown eggs and some dear jerky as a tip.....something neither of which Mikey can eat! ha

So, as said above well over a dozen since the first stupid field experience and they all clean like regular nylon carpet and I've yet to find in the warranty any word or clause that says you CAN'T use detergent. Yes there a couple pile heights and densities that really bog down your vacuum brush bar. Even my Proteam has chewed hard on a couple of them. I certainly hope as more and more get cleaned that the urban bs about this hyped up carpet are left in the ditch. Meantime, get on with cleaning them and don't listen to bad information. I've even heard our industry talking heads talking out their ass about this product.

 

[hogjowl]

I have a couple of issues with your position.

First, this thread was originally started with a discussion about smart strand SILK, which behaves quite a bit differently than regular smart strand. Silk is the softer of the two and is much denser. It can be more difficult to thoroughly clean than wool.

The second issue I have with your general assessment is related as much to wear as it is to soiling. I have not come upon a smart strand carpet yet that didn't have some form if premature wear in it. (Premature when compared to a comparable nylon.) As this soft fiber wears, soil not only gets imbedded into the micro-occlusions, but it gets trapped in the micro- fiber bundle. (As discussed above.) I'm amazed that, even though you've only cleaned 13 or 14 of these, you haven't noticed how poorly they clean in worn areas.

My first job today was cleaning a house full of a medium grade smart strand (high cut looped pile) that was installed in a small 1400 sf home inhabited by only one male and his dog. This guy is a regular who cleans every 6 to 8 months and applies protector each time. The carpet is 3 years old and has noticeable wear at the kitchen door, in front of the sofa, at the pivot point turning into the MBR, and at the M/Bath doorway. The kitchen doorway and in front of the sofa was terribly soiled. I couldn't prescrub this carpet, so I had to clean it a couple of times to get it as clean as possible.

It still LOOKED soiled when I was through. I raked it into a position where the wear deflection was negated, but it will look bad as soon as he walks on it.

This young guy is really anal about his things. He buys the best of everything and keeps everything in tip top condition. He's upset that he paid as much as he did for a carpet that's not as bullet proof as the salesman said it would be.

By the way, I looked and could find no evidence that suggested he had ever had a rhinoceros living there.

 

[ruff]

I love the Gung Ho attitude.
NOT!

Inferior fabrics do not perform as well as better fabric. It's simple. It's true. We all see it every day.

A cheap olefin and a soft polyester will not perform as well as a good quality nylon, no matter what's the cleaning temperature is and or the imaginary 'can do no matter what' attitude. You may persuade the local spinsters, but we see the difference every day between good quality and low quality carpet.

The bad ones may be clean when you're done, but they never look great once they sustained premature wear damage. Saying they all look great afterwards may fall under bravado, delusion or may just require a trip to the optometrist- pronto.

 

[glenboy]

Those **** sticks at mohawk verbally manipulated my customers claim..declined my calls...all in an effort to prove that well what the hell...all carpets look like shit in 18 months....I have cleaned miles of good carpet,shit carpet,and shittier carpet...in low income trailers...apts and homes,and commercial....that SMART STRAND Is not worth owning or cleaning...I feel bad for my customer and their wasted investment

 

[NobleCarpetCleaners]

"...I have with your general assessment is related as much to wear as it is to soiling. I have not come upon a smart strand carpet yet that didn't have some form if premature wear in it."

Marty, I have noticed what I think is some fairly rapid pile distortion in the traffic lanes, on several of them. But I've seen a mess of this on nylon and poly prop carpet as well, and I really mean that. I say "rapid" rather then pre-mature because who can really define "pre-mature"? I clean nylon carpet that was milled 35 years ago who's traffic lanes wear like iron and turn around with a 1.5 year old that has a trail even a tenderfoot boy scout couldn't miss. So when I see a newly formulated fiber out there that seems to have some visual distortion even after 1 year it doesn't phase me.

Consumers abuse their carpet in ways we never actually see. Bringing in massive amounts of grit and oily soil on boots, shoes and even bare feet. Over and over and let's not forget the pets like fairly heavy dogs. Who the hell is truly studying the effects of traffic abuse on the carpets milled in recent years under seriously real conditions?; nobody. And a frigging Rino pissing and shitting on a scrap of carpet at the factory which we and the consumer never see especially doesn't count.

So, yes I've seen what you were talking about. But it doesn't persuade me to think it's premature, not when we can't quantify the abuse/neglect that takes place after they are installed. Stain and wear and any other warranty issues are between the consume and the mills. I spoke above about my findings on cleaning only.

 

[hogjowl]

It's premature when it happens faster than I think it ought to.

Idiot.

 

[KevinD]

It's premature when it happens faster than I think it ought to.

Idiot.

Sounds like a personal problem right there.

 

[hogjowl]

It's only personal when I don't share it with you.