Speed and maxing out a "big truck"

[Jim Martin]

....two different animals.....the heat will maintain at an outside temp once you get it up there.....and your machine is running correct......now take into consideration that in some of the most extreme cold temps she will take a bit longer and some may want to boost it up some how..( not really needed but I use to live in those temps so I can see the point).... but never the less once the oil heats.. this system has no problem setting itself at what ever temp you desire and holding it threw out your cleaning day.......absolute best system in the industry....

As far as the flow and the heat with the jets....it is a personal preference...I think that my cleanings are close to the same if not better running my standard jets than increase my flow... I have to set my temps and vacuum up higher to accommodate for the higher jet flow....For myself it just made no since to me to have to put more strain.... add more heat to the system and empty my fresh tank out faster..

I can run my glided RX in the middle of a hot desert summer and get so much steam from the heat that you can barley see the machine....carpets are coming out perfect and dry time are the best I have ever seen.....why rock the boat.. I am not really gaining one thing....But I did loose a lot..my gas mileage went down because I had to increase the RPM to recover the increase of water.....Normally I could do 5 to 6 jobs in a day ( pending the size) and still have water left in the tank and not worry about the waste tank getting full..with a higher flow..3 to 4 jobs I was out of water and looking for a place to dump and refill.....big waste of time...


as far as a pre heated fresh tank....If there was ever the big reason that I would never buy a newer Vortex is because they have done away with the pre heated tank....( so I was told anyway)....when I was running my CDS in the winter here having to hook up to the outside faucet and pumping the cold water into the system and trying to warm it was a nightmare.....I just do not understand how the guys in a colder climate manage to do this all the time.... with the pre heated tank....when ever it gets really cold here..I may only start out with a 100 degrees but I am pumping warm water threw the system and she will heat up in no time....this is the only way to go.....

as far as the water flowing and getting hotter....I have played with this..and I can not say that I agree.....I can get my water to heat up to the temp I want way faster by letting it pause a little here and there....when holding the RX wide open and cleaning...it take way longer to get it up to temp then if I pause the trigger at the end of each left and right pass....same with the wand....trigger the valve on the back stroke and release on the forward stroke and I will have it popping and releasing steam in no time.....key the valve both directions and it takes much longer to produce....It is a given fact that water that moves slower or stands still will heat much faster then water that is not standing still and moving at a faster flow.....

Just because I have the power does not mean that I have to peak it out.......

 

[Greenie]

Thanks you for that reply Jim.

I have an additional question. Do you turn up your rpms (hence blower speed) because you Need more suck to recover the additional water, or is it just something you feel better about doing cause you are putting down 25% more per stroke?

As for heat, are you saying your unit "can" support more BTU output, but because you single wand, you choose to run it slower and therefore find a wet pass dry pass rhythum best for maintaining the highest heat at that speed?

On High flow, are you saying the truck can't really keep up, so you choose to "balance" your flow and heat and recovery?

What if your were running two moderate flow wands, say 012 flow per (not real high like 018 and 24 flow you hear these days), how hot do you think your truck would hold with a pair of 012s at say 500 psi, and doing a dedicated dry pass for every wet?

I know refilling more often as a result of using more water is a PITA, I accept that, it's actually a HUGE reason more guys don't "jet up" to the next level, and I understand, we all have to find our balance.

 

[Erik]

Every thing on the the truck is working fine. Temps today 19 degrees today,8500 sg.ft. 12 flow 350 gallons 2 man crew. max temp 205. Balls to the walls.

 

[Jim Martin]

One of the time saving features of this set up is that you are not wasting your time doing dry strokes over the carpet to produce great dry times..she has what it takes to recover what you put down if you balance it out correct...more water will mean a increase in the RPM so it stays balanced in able to keep the efficiency of the dry times....That is one of the biggest issues I see out there.....people with a 48 blower using a higher flow or a insane PSI and either working themselves to death trying to recover what they just put down or having to give the client waders instead of shoe cover while they are waiting for there carpets to dry.....even with these big blowers......think about it.....how many people out there are sitting down reading the back of the chemical jug worrying about PH levels..a side from delicate situations (which you should of already learned anyway)..it is not a matter of what you put down..what counts is what you are able to recover....balance out you tools with your equipment and life gets much easier.....

My machine can support any temp that I set it at....I chose to run it at a lower RPM (15) and standard flow because after a month I just could not see any difference in running a higher flow and having to increase everything to balance it out....why peak it more if I don't have to.....better gas mileage..less wear and tear...same cleaning....

with one wand.running at about 450 PSI with the truck set on 260....I am getting about 235 at the wand....IMO that is not really a bad drop taking into consideration that it will keep that 235 threw the entire job and that is running 200 ft of good year eagle hose that we all know looses some of your heat.....running 2 wands at the same standard flow I would probably loose another 40 degrees....But..knowing this I would take that into account and set my temps higher and my vacuum higher to try to balance both wands to the machine.....it would be kinda like running a higher flow.....

really you just got to know what your equipment can handle and where it will peak out and when it is time to stop.....good thing about this equipment...you cant peak it out....you will be looking for trouble trying to.....and there is just know way that whats his butt is going to convince me that his WM can get the same production as the Vortex he use to own.....the only way that this is possible is that the machine intimidated him and he just did not know how to use it to its best ability......did he produce great results with his WM....???..probably...any good cleaner can produce great results with anything that they use....but it is not about just results..you make your money with efficiency and time....

 

[Erik]

All I can say is it's not a Steamway. Wish you may, wish you might, I hope everyone's truck stays cozy tonight!!

 

[Jim Martin]

Every thing on the the truck is working fine. Temps today 19 degrees today,8500 sg.ft. 12 flow 350 gallons 2 man crew. max temp 205. Balls to the walls.

just curious....what did you have the truck temp set at...??

 

[Erik]

300 degrees. In the summer the zen temp. maintains 282, yesterday 248.

 

[Ron Lippold]

cold for here we have been in the low 20s and at a warm of 35 for the last week i run 24 flow single wanding i have to keep the water coming in the tank on every job i can maintian 200 on the machine with the therm set at 295 temp and a oil temp of 230.

 

[Jim Martin]

cold for here we have been in the low 20s and at a warm of 35 for the last week i run 24 flow single wanding i have to keep the water coming in the tank on every job i can maintian 200 on the machine with the therm set at 295 temp and a oil temp of 230.

that kinda makes since for you..I know you are a super high flow fan ......it just like I mentioned with the CDS..having to hook up to a house and feed the machine with cold water in the winter then trying to heat it up and maintain it just kills your heat....

 

[Greenie]

200 deg @ 24 flow is pretty respectable, and donwright HOT at the fiber as you are pit washing it, not steam cleaning.

Jim, I don't know how you didn't notice a change from an 06 flow Ti wand and an 012 flow wand, I've never heard anything less than Wow form new users who switched over. But I'm not there, and i trust your word, it is your business and your experience. Go with what works for ya.

As for the WhiteMagic guy, I'm far from a magic fan, but I do know that system, and with the exception of maybe tank capacity, at the end of the day 16-17"hg, and 400+ cfm is what it is, the vacuum is very impressive on a new Pro1200, you can feel that additional lift, so the #5 blower isn't on leave of absence, and it does get hot. So I Honestly don't think he's taking any additional dry strokes, so I'm not sure where the production time would pick up.

Notice I didn't mention dual wand, because that changes everything.

Where I think the Vortex platform is sweet, is dual 012 flow wands @ 210 deg and 600psi....that is some production.
Of course...runnign 2.5" hose, running a single 2" hose (no 4 to the door) on a V is just plain silly.

 

[Mike Draper]

So I took out my shaft driven cooling fan up front in my Butler and installed an Dual Electric Cooling fan with an adjustable temp dial up on the dash. Last week I cleaned at -5 to -10 deg temps all week. With the cooling fan set to not turn on till 212 degrees, I was getting 190-200 ATW (I have a temp gauge on my wand) going through 200' of live solution line. (goodyear steel braided shit) I have tested the 2 Vortex's in my area in these negative temps. V's were only 2-3 years old. Neither of them held any better temps than my butler now does. This was after the had been out cleaning for 4 hours. The tech's bitched about how it takes 4 hours just to get them warm when it's Negative temps outside. I run all 2.5" hose and those guys run 2" hose with crappy cuffs that takes it down to 1.75" hose. I dont see how they are out cleaning me with their V. Actually, I know their not.

 

[Jim Martin]

So I took out my shaft driven cooling fan up front in my Butler and installed an Dual Electric Cooling fan with an adjustable temp dial up on the dash. Last week I cleaned at -5 to -10 deg temps all week. With the cooling fan set to not turn on till 212 degrees, I was getting 190-200 ATW (I have a temp gauge on my wand) going through 200' of live solution line. (goodyear steel braided shit) I have tested the 2 Vortex's in my area in these negative temps. V's were only 2-3 years old. Neither of them held any better temps than my butler now does. This was after the had been out cleaning for 4 hours. The tech's bitched about how it takes 4 hours just to get them warm when it's Negative temps outside. I run all 2.5" hose and those guys run 2" hose with crappy cuffs that takes it down to 1.75" hose. I dont see how they are out cleaning me with their V. Actually, I know their not.

the thing with the butler is that you just killed all the air flow to the radiator and got you engine real warm and the water started heating faster...

..it is not like they are trying to heat just water..they are heating up oil first then heating the water.... one thing about the UD ..she don't really like cold weather and takes it some time to warm up....never the less it does get to running temps..they could do the same thing and get a front cover for the UD and block some of the air flow so it will run a bit warmer.....or tilt the cab and block off the top 1/3 of the radiator...this is only going to allow the hotter exhaust to heat the oil faster but either way..if they are working like they should...they should heat the oil and water up to temp.........so are you out cleaning them because you can get a few extra degrees out of yours buy restricting the air flow...??..or am I not understanding this correct...??

 

[Mike Draper]

2 reasons, they are running less than half the flow, they don't have as much suck at the end of 150' of hose as i do. And yes, I have also tested this on their machines as well. Please read the V's website. They could easily fix this, they are just to cheap to buy 2.5" hose.

Here is a quote form Vortex website.

Try this experiment: When cleaning with a 6 jetted wand, hold your left hand (If you use your right hand to push the wand) on the tube of the wand and feel how hot the wand tube gets while you pull it towards you on a "wet pass". Then try it with a 12 jetted wand. What you'll find is that although the temperature gauge on your instrument/control panel will show lower temperatures when using a "12 jetted" wand, the wand tube will feel MUCH hotter. This indicates you are applying much more energy to the the textile you are cleaning.

One way to fix the heat problem, or the LACK OF HEAT, would be to take the pos heat exchanger out and do what Aerotech did. A reliable exhaust hx. After my buddy and I cleaned 1 apartment with his Aerotech this week at -8 degrees, we couldn't get the thing to drop below 218 ATW with 12 flow wand. That was with the trigger wide open for over a minute.

Also, I dont need any airflow though the radiator until my engine reaches a proper temp.

 

[Greenie]

Is this an "oil" vs: "water" arguement, or are you saying the HX inside the box vs: outside the box is the difference? Or are you saying the physical construction and engineering of the AT HX is better than the V HX?

 

[Jim Martin]

Is this an "oil" vs: "water" arguement, or are you saying the HX inside the box vs: outside the box is the difference? Or are you saying the physical construction and engineering of the AT HX is better than the V HX?

I am saying that it is better in any temp to heat the oil and use it to heat the water than just trying to heat only water....not sure what you mean by..

.Or are you saying the physical construction and engineering of the AT HX is better than the V

 

[Greenie]

Those were directed at Mike.

 

[Jim Martin]

sorry I thought you was talking to me....

 

[Mike Draper]

All I can say, Is I've used both machines, In -5 to -10 degrees. The At's more simple exhaust HX heated up faster and held the heat better. I understand the argument that a V's oil hx will eventually hold the heat perfectly when the oil is to the proper temp. When it's -10 degrees outside it near impossible to do this. So to me, it seems that a simpler design (AT)is the better solution in ultra cold outside temps.

 

[Carpet Cleaning Fool]

I'm an o/o and picked up a 1999 Vortex a couple months ago.

Before getting the Vortex I was consistantly behind schedule an hour or an hour and a half all day.

Now, I'm only late to my 1st appointment and on-time, or ahead of schedule, the rest of the day.

In my case it certainly is faster! Jobs that used to take 3 hours I do now in under 2.

Its probably a combination of things that make the Vortex faster for me. One pass cleaning, all day fresh/waste water and electric reels. Dry times are faster too.

Almost forgot to mention that I'm charging more money and its fun to drive.

 

[dealtimeman]

i second what goerge said and i also like the aerotech syle hx better than the oil vortex hx. side by side cleaning with a local 700hat my truck got hotter faster and had higher more consistant heat that the 2007 newer truck.

 

[Mikey P]

Vortex threads are so 2005..

 

[Lee Stockwell]

...but the payments are forever.

 

[Jim Martin]

2 reasons, they are running less than half the flow, they don't have as much suck at the end of 150' of hose as i do. And yes, I have also tested this on their machines as well. Please read the V's website. They could easily fix this, they are just to cheap to buy 2.5" hose.

Here is a quote form Vortex website.

Try this experiment: When cleaning with a 6 jetted wand, hold your left hand (If you use your right hand to push the wand) on the tube of the wand and feel how hot the wand tube gets while you pull it towards you on a "wet pass". Then try it with a 12 jetted wand. What you'll find is that although the temperature gauge on your instrument/control panel will show lower temperatures when using a "12 jetted" wand, the wand tube will feel MUCH hotter. This indicates you are applying much more energy to the the textile you are cleaning.

One way to fix the heat problem, or the LACK OF HEAT, would be to take the pos heat exchanger out and do what Aerotech did. A reliable exhaust hx. After my buddy and I cleaned 1 apartment with his Aerotech this week at -8 degrees, we couldn't get the thing to drop below 218 ATW with 12 flow wand. That was with the trigger wide open for over a minute.

Also, I dont need any airflow though the radiator until my engine reaches a proper temp.

I am not in any way saying that what you have seen is not true....but on the same side of the coin there are a lot of factors that come into play that have an effect on how other companies equipment will preform...how they maintain there equipment..were there filters clear at the start of the job...air leaks....clogged lines ....how many hours on the therm oil.....these are just a few.... I can only speak from experience from my own machine and I can tell you that the vacuum at 150 ft does not even get this machine worked up...I have some jobs that take almost every inch of what I carry to get to the furthermost point...and yes...even though I set my vacuum higher to accommodate for the distance I was still not as strong as I would be at 150 to 200 ft...show me a machine that will.....another big factor as of why I went to this type equipment was because I was giving away $900 to $1200 a month because of some of the homes I had I just could not produce the distance....now I put that money toward extra payments or other things....I don't run ..nor do I have the desire to put 2.5 hose on my machine..but I was able to take what I have and figure out how to get every inch of performance that it will give me and to do just as good as the machines that are pulling 2.5..............I have the utmost respect for A/T and Ted.......but at this point in time knowing the in's and out's of a closed loop systems...when it comes to heating raw water...faster is not always better..I don't think that there has ever been a question that the A/T can heat the water faster....but I just don't get all warm and fuzzy about the amount of travel that the water has to go threw to reach the solution lines.... way to many things could go wrong....with the therm oil....the only thing that can hurt you is if you don't take care of it and maintain it like you need to...but when maintained the way it should....she will and can produce what you need......That was a smart move with the fans on your machine to produce more heat.....I think that in those temps that if you used that mechanical ability towards the UD you would of been much happier with it......who knows......

 

[KevinL]

My wm1200 gets up to temp in about 3 minutes, 230 atw in 0 degrees. and holds it all day. plenty of suck, elect. reel. I can carry everything inside including spotters and blower, hoses and wand and can be cleaning in a few minutes. Where does the V save time when NOT dual wanding?

 

[Mike Draper]

My wm1200 gets up to temp in about 3 minutes, 230 atw in 0 degrees. and holds it all day. plenty of suck, elect. reel. I can carry everything inside including spotters and blower, hoses and wand and can be cleaning in a few minutes. Where does the V save time when NOT dual wanding?

Puhleasse! Anybody that knows anything about tm's knows that is impossible. I'll pay you a grand if you can make a video, show the outside temp when its ZERO degrees, then show your engine temp as cold, start a timer then get your water to 230 atw within 3 minutes. You must have cheat gauge on wand. It will never happen with a white magic.

 

[hogjowl]

I remember reading somebody (probably Mikey) say something years ago about it taking a good long time to get the Vortex up to the proper temperature. Seems like the person said it took about the whole first job to get it cooking. I was shocked at that. After purchasing mine, I saw immediately that it didn't take THAT long, but it did take a couple of rooms to get it going good. Then, when Billy Lewis came down to see me, he caused me to have a DUH moment when he showed me how to crank it up and put it under load as you are rolling out the hoses. Now I can have good heat within a few trigger pulls.

 

[Greenie]

It takes a significant amount of energy to heat up 150 lbs worth of metal heat exchangers and two gallons of Xentherm. But once it gets to temp it stays there and doesn't come back down. Yeah, it takes more time to get a V to temp... but your solution hoses will never see 450 degree water. Very small price to pay in my opinion.

If you have a 30 min. drive to your first job, you are good to go with a 5 min. under load pre-heat.

If you roll out yo door 90 sec. to your first stop, with 60 deg. fresh water.....it's an uphill climb. Especially running a second wand.

 

[tracywalker]

I'm an o/o and picked up a 1999 Vortex a couple months ago.

Before getting the Vortex I was consistantly behind schedule an hour or an hour and a half all day.

Now, I'm only late to my 1st appointment and on-time, or ahead of schedule, the rest of the day.

In my case it certainly is faster! Jobs that used to take 3 hours I do now in under 2.

Its probably a combination of things that make the Vortex faster for me. One pass cleaning, all day fresh/waste water and electric reels. Dry times are faster too.

Almost forgot to mention that I'm charging more money and its fun to drive.

What did you run before getting the vortex?

No one answered my intital question about if there are any companies using the VAT for low price production cleaning? Looks like with 2 man crews dual wanding you could fly through a day squriting and sucking just curious.

 

[daniel@procarpet]

I don't get it. It takes the same amount of time to set up hoses and reel them up, talk to customer, vacuum, spot, and push and pull a wand with an Everest as it does with a Vortex. How can you really save that much time? I can see cleaning a hotel but not 4 residential homes.

 

[hogjowl]

I can't say if it's any faster then cleaning with an Everest. I have no idea what an Everest has in the way of it's components. All I can tell you is single wanding with my V is much faster than single wanding with a TCS Warrior.