Fon Johnson
Member
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2006
- Messages
- 1,066
It looks as if there has to be a progressive color shift on the roll.. Was it manufactured when Fenstermaker was still working at the yarn barn? LOL
What do you see ?
- Thread starter harryhides
- Start date
Great Post Tony,
A lot of great comments and observations.
While I would love to see a very clear Macro Shot of the seam right over the top and I would love to see it clearly with a lot of direct light right over the top as well and I would like to be able to measure the pile height on each side of the seam, based on what it shows, I would have to think in terms of Texture Variation. This is said with the understanding that the same side stays dark no matter which side of the seam it is viewed from?
Just my thoughts based on what the definition of the pattern appears to be from the photos.
I too will wait anxiously for the rest of your information to share with us. Again, great post Tony.
SA
A lot of great comments and observations.
While I would love to see a very clear Macro Shot of the seam right over the top and I would love to see it clearly with a lot of direct light right over the top as well and I would like to be able to measure the pile height on each side of the seam, based on what it shows, I would have to think in terms of Texture Variation. This is said with the understanding that the same side stays dark no matter which side of the seam it is viewed from?
Just my thoughts based on what the definition of the pattern appears to be from the photos.
I too will wait anxiously for the rest of your information to share with us. Again, great post Tony.
SA
Ron Werner
Member
when you place the tape across the seam our eye loses the immediate colour change.
The difference is still there but now the eye sees one carpet, then the tape, then the other carpet.
Just an optical illusion.
The difference is still there but now the eye sees one carpet, then the tape, then the other carpet.
Just an optical illusion.
harryhides
Member
BINGO !!
At least that's what I think but if there are any other theories out there I'd love to hear them.
Well there is a couple that Steve and Sweendog alluded to.
At least that's what I think but if there are any other theories out there I'd love to hear them.
Well there is a couple that Steve and Sweendog alluded to.
Based upon what was said about being New Carpet and same roll and so forth, I do not believe the term 'color change' would be correct.,(unless the term is being used very loosely). When you get somewhat of an overview, especially in the downstairs fill piece (? I think that was what was shown), the color on both sides appear very close. While there can be a lot of color drifting to the edge, many side match problems occur due to 'Texture Variation', which can be due to tension and or shearing effects. This will make a carpet with the same color appear to be two completely different colors all due to the light reflection. This is what I see here, from the photos. Flood that carpet with light and look straight down onto the seams and I would tend to think one could not tell one bit of difference in 'color'. The fact that the same side stays dark regardless of which side it is viewed from also helps to point this direction, IMO.
Of course being there and seeing it in photos is quite different.
Texture Variation is simply the difference of pile height or tension, in most circumstances. A slight difference of pile height will make the pattern look different and make the color appear different, all due to tension and pile height. When you look at the carpet downstairs, you can see the depth of the pattern is quite different and more defined on one side, it has more depth to it where the other side seems to 'lose' some of the pattern, since it is not so defined. This is classic to what is referred to as 'Texture Variation'. This condition makes the color appear different due to the light and how it is reflected off the face yarns. It is a form of an optical illusion.
Just my two cents worth.
SA
Of course being there and seeing it in photos is quite different.
Texture Variation is simply the difference of pile height or tension, in most circumstances. A slight difference of pile height will make the pattern look different and make the color appear different, all due to tension and pile height. When you look at the carpet downstairs, you can see the depth of the pattern is quite different and more defined on one side, it has more depth to it where the other side seems to 'lose' some of the pattern, since it is not so defined. This is classic to what is referred to as 'Texture Variation'. This condition makes the color appear different due to the light and how it is reflected off the face yarns. It is a form of an optical illusion.
Just my two cents worth.
SA
harryhides
Member
Steve is correct - when viewed from directly above the differences did largely but not completely disappear.
Since texture variation was my first guess I did a field test for "texture variation" which although not super accurate showed no variation.
With a low light I could see a few higher spots ( another indicator of texture change ) on one side and trimming them down a smidgen did help. The other thing that Steve was alluding to was another factor in this one. Although at first glance it appears to be a random pattern, it is not.
On close examination the installer here did not cut each side according to the pattern. I will see if I can find a pic that illustrates this.
On a more obvious pattern like one with lines or squares this error would have jumped out immediately.
It appears to be a combination of things to have produced this result.
What interested me the most was how much the eye can be fooled.
"Side match" is the single most misdiagnosed defect according to every claims manager I've ever listened to.
btw I use the word to include the end result not the cause. ie, installer error, dye or color drift, mismatched rolls, texture variation, lighting conditions ( like a beam, lol ) etc.
Since texture variation was my first guess I did a field test for "texture variation" which although not super accurate showed no variation.
With a low light I could see a few higher spots ( another indicator of texture change ) on one side and trimming them down a smidgen did help. The other thing that Steve was alluding to was another factor in this one. Although at first glance it appears to be a random pattern, it is not.
On close examination the installer here did not cut each side according to the pattern. I will see if I can find a pic that illustrates this.
On a more obvious pattern like one with lines or squares this error would have jumped out immediately.
It appears to be a combination of things to have produced this result.
What interested me the most was how much the eye can be fooled.
"Side match" is the single most misdiagnosed defect according to every claims manager I've ever listened to.
btw I use the word to include the end result not the cause. ie, installer error, dye or color drift, mismatched rolls, texture variation, lighting conditions ( like a beam, lol ) etc.
I, have to agree with John and Mark. It looks like the iron ran too hot and caused color loss along the width of the seam iron. Also, heat and moisture being trapped by an object( tool box, marble slab) it simulates a heat transfer effect. And you walked end to end on the seam with no color flip flop on breadths of carpet? So no side match problem. I like to see the lay-out of the room. What's the minor detail on the seam?
Deron
Deron
harryhides
Member
Thank you Sam, but it is really just an example of the collective wisdom to be found in this place.
I'll see what I can dig out for you in the next few weeks.
I'm glad that this thread was moved here by someone ( they beat me to it ) because imo this topic belongs here esp when it comes to doing repairs.
I'll see what I can dig out for you in the next few weeks.
I'm glad that this thread was moved here by someone ( they beat me to it ) because imo this topic belongs here esp when it comes to doing repairs.
Tony,
While I may agree in principle with this post being here, look at how many views and posts were made to it in the clean room. I think that would be the place to start this type of thread and then have it moved here. Maybe more people would become supporting members if they knew what type of information is in this room???
I think we should do this type of stuff in the clean room, let people have some help with understanding there is a lot more to carpet and things they may see, let it run for a few days, like you did, and then move it in here for the final answers, you may be able to build this room into a really great place.
Just my thoughts. It is obvious this will help people think about on line training and things related to this. What are your thoughts?
SA
While I may agree in principle with this post being here, look at how many views and posts were made to it in the clean room. I think that would be the place to start this type of thread and then have it moved here. Maybe more people would become supporting members if they knew what type of information is in this room???
I think we should do this type of stuff in the clean room, let people have some help with understanding there is a lot more to carpet and things they may see, let it run for a few days, like you did, and then move it in here for the final answers, you may be able to build this room into a really great place.
Just my thoughts. It is obvious this will help people think about on line training and things related to this. What are your thoughts?
SA
harryhides
Member
Precisely why I started the thread in the Clean Room.
I was amazed at the numbers of votes cast, if not a record it was right up there.
I agree with your sentiments re this Room and these types of "whodunit" Threads.
ps, this Room is already a "really great place" thanks to it's Mods and many of it's contributers.
I was amazed at the numbers of votes cast, if not a record it was right up there.
I agree with your sentiments re this Room and these types of "whodunit" Threads.
ps, this Room is already a "really great place" thanks to it's Mods and many of it's contributers.
Larry B
Member
Thanks for all the time and info on this Tony.
Jack May
That Kiwi
Thanks heaps for this thread Tony and others.
Good idea as it's winding down to shift it here.
So Tony, you 'diagnosed' it as pile texture variation? If so, what does the customer get out of this? Is anything going to be done? What and by whom?
I still maintain, as does Fred, that there appears to be a lighter strip through the middle, potentially pile re alignment from heat and moisture issues when seaming.
John
PS another of these dropped in from time to time is great too... gets our minds going.
Good idea as it's winding down to shift it here.
So Tony, you 'diagnosed' it as pile texture variation? If so, what does the customer get out of this? Is anything going to be done? What and by whom?
I still maintain, as does Fred, that there appears to be a lighter strip through the middle, potentially pile re alignment from heat and moisture issues when seaming.
John
PS another of these dropped in from time to time is great too... gets our minds going.
harryhides
Member
John, in my experience most "sidematch" problems are texture related. They are hardly ever caused by putting in one side backwards or a gapped or overlapped seam. Sometimes they are dye related ie "colour drift," or miss matched rolls.
This one looked like it was texture related because from directly overhead it all matched up fine.
Same for the two basement seams.
However, in addition to the texture issue, I believe it was compounded by the installer's laziness in treating the way he cut each side of the seam as if it was a true "random" pattern.
Even more interesting, for us repair guys ( for whom great attention to these kinds of details are critical ), is when dealing with a multi-level loop or multi-level cut n loop. If one cut is thru a low part of the pattern and the other is thru a high part or yet another low part - it is going to make the seam jump out. When that happens, covering the seam with a tape measure creates an optical illusion which I thought make a fun, thought provoking and interesting thread and piss off a few people at the same time.
Whaddya think ?
This one looked like it was texture related because from directly overhead it all matched up fine.
Same for the two basement seams.
However, in addition to the texture issue, I believe it was compounded by the installer's laziness in treating the way he cut each side of the seam as if it was a true "random" pattern.
Even more interesting, for us repair guys ( for whom great attention to these kinds of details are critical ), is when dealing with a multi-level loop or multi-level cut n loop. If one cut is thru a low part of the pattern and the other is thru a high part or yet another low part - it is going to make the seam jump out. When that happens, covering the seam with a tape measure creates an optical illusion which I thought make a fun, thought provoking and interesting thread and piss off a few people at the same time.
Whaddya think ?
sweendogg
Member
Sheesh I'm away from for a day and missed the grand finale. Tony this was a great post. I look forward to more of these. Having grown up in the carpet and flooring world and learning installation before cleaning, it never ceases to amaze me how many differnt scenarios can occur from retailer to mill to installation to homeowner. Every single step seems to impart a puzzle piece when something goes wrong.
For instance, we just had a claim on one of our newer lines of textured nylon berbors that had a snow white color. One or our senior mechanics completed a perfect seam in a bedroom and a half hour later the seam had yellowed. After contacting claims and tech services for that brand, the suggestion to use a white tape such as the Kool Glide or a seamaster hot melt tape was made. Testing on the resulting seams revealed that in deed heat was having an adverse effect on the seam as well as the glue used. but once the yellowing had occurred in the primary seam, any small imperfection was immeditaly picked up from the eye mainly because the yellowing had trained our eyes to look for a problem in the other seams even if it was nescessarily there.
End result was the Mill replaced it because we were in contact with them about the problem from the start. As long as we are communicating any problems timley most manufactures have no problem replacing a piece of goods to satisfy a customer. However so many installers don't bat an eye at a problem and don't report a defect or issue and that is when Mills wash their hands of the problems.
Again great post!
For instance, we just had a claim on one of our newer lines of textured nylon berbors that had a snow white color. One or our senior mechanics completed a perfect seam in a bedroom and a half hour later the seam had yellowed. After contacting claims and tech services for that brand, the suggestion to use a white tape such as the Kool Glide or a seamaster hot melt tape was made. Testing on the resulting seams revealed that in deed heat was having an adverse effect on the seam as well as the glue used. but once the yellowing had occurred in the primary seam, any small imperfection was immeditaly picked up from the eye mainly because the yellowing had trained our eyes to look for a problem in the other seams even if it was nescessarily there.
End result was the Mill replaced it because we were in contact with them about the problem from the start. As long as we are communicating any problems timley most manufactures have no problem replacing a piece of goods to satisfy a customer. However so many installers don't bat an eye at a problem and don't report a defect or issue and that is when Mills wash their hands of the problems.
Again great post!
M
Mark Imbesi
Guest
Here we go again!sweendogg said:
Sweeney, want to know why us installers dont bat an eye about a defect?
1) It's usually our fault (NOT) and we are left hanging without representation from the retailer we install from.
2) Said retailer and mill doesnt value our time and we loose a days pay to have to pack it up and go home because of a defect. I am THE quality control officer for both you and the mill! And, until you realize this, you should enjoy eating the shit we are forced to eat!
sweendogg
Member
Hey don't get all bent out of shape... I 'm a certified installation mechanic before a cleaning technician. And I work in the trenches not the office. I've worked with with alot of different installers over the years. I've worked with the best in the area and seen the worst as well. Am I at an advantage because the retailer I work stands behind our mechanics (and happens to be my family).. hell yes I am. Do we stand behind all of our mechanics the same way? Yes
A good retailer will stand behind their installers, have a postive relationship between Mills and mill reps in their area so when a problem arises it can be dealt with quickly. A great retailer will reimburse a days wage or work done if a carpet must be replaced because of defects and still pay to have it correctly installed when replacement piece is ready AND take the responcilbity to arrange for a replacement and compensation value.
We are a high end store and moved into high end goods to get away from dealing with the volume of defects on cheaper goods. Yet we still deal with more than we would like to see. We understand it is not resonable to refuse absolutly every defect in a carpet if we want to keep our installers working and our customers' projects completed in a timely manner. However we trust our installers to report discovered defects.
When I refer to installers who do not bat an eye at defects, I also refer to the ones who straight edge every single piece of carpet, knee kick everything in and who think that if they can install a tufted piece of goods well that they can install wovens and axeminsters because they say its all the same (actual quote from an installer during an interview). Now if you are complaining about retailers and mills not backing the installers.. time to find a better retailer to work for.
A good retailer will stand behind their installers, have a postive relationship between Mills and mill reps in their area so when a problem arises it can be dealt with quickly. A great retailer will reimburse a days wage or work done if a carpet must be replaced because of defects and still pay to have it correctly installed when replacement piece is ready AND take the responcilbity to arrange for a replacement and compensation value.
We are a high end store and moved into high end goods to get away from dealing with the volume of defects on cheaper goods. Yet we still deal with more than we would like to see. We understand it is not resonable to refuse absolutly every defect in a carpet if we want to keep our installers working and our customers' projects completed in a timely manner. However we trust our installers to report discovered defects.
When I refer to installers who do not bat an eye at defects, I also refer to the ones who straight edge every single piece of carpet, knee kick everything in and who think that if they can install a tufted piece of goods well that they can install wovens and axeminsters because they say its all the same (actual quote from an installer during an interview). Now if you are complaining about retailers and mills not backing the installers.. time to find a better retailer to work for.
harryhides
Member
David, Marc is one of the good guys BUT he is from South Joisey. I have learned a few things from Marc and hopefully he has learned to have just a little more trust in some Inspectors.
Samuel, I put up some pictures of grey scale use a little later on next week - I have to fly down to Philly to straighten out an Installer. :mrgreen:
Samuel, I put up some pictures of grey scale use a little later on next week - I have to fly down to Philly to straighten out an Installer. :mrgreen:
D Rice
Member
Sheet rock dust on the lighter side that may have not been covered or installed later?
