When and where do you use an Alkaline rinse?

[GeeeAus]

Chelation agents need to be fairly precisely dosed. This is a factor in making ohosphates work well.

Then of course there are the ecological consequences. Phosphates are not very ecologically sound.

 

[Tom Forsythe]

In the United States phosphates are limited to .5% of the formula for laundry detergent and auto dish detergent (one reason why they do not work as well anymore). In my house, we do about 200 loads of laundry and 150 dishwashing loads. Generally, I extraction rinse once a year and quarterly maintain the carpet with encapsulation cleanings. There is no phosphate in the encapsulation and any powdered phosphate rinse is usually diluted 1 to 640 .15% of the ready to use formula. My point is that phosphate usage in our industry isn't even a blip on the phosphate radar. The use of phosphate based fertilizer is a remaining concern by environmentalists.

 

[Mikey P]

All that money into Empowered Water on board generators, mega marketing and yet.... a $99 wand..

watch the header video..

https://www.zerorezphoenix.com/

 

[Onfire_02_01]

All that money into Empowered Water on board generators, mega marketing and yet.... a $99 wand..

watch the header video..

https://www.zerorezphoenix.com/

Priorities Mikey, you have to have those priorities in order.

 

[GeeeAus]

So PROCYON is just a WATER SOFTENER?

So is Masterblend Soap Free and many others.

 

[Mikey P]

Priorities Mikey, you have to have those priorities in order.

or the pricey ones fall apart every 5 months...

 

[Onfire_02_01]

In the United States phosphates are limited to .5% of the formula for laundry detergent and auto dish detergent (one reason why they do not work as well anymore). In my house, we do about 200 loads of laundry and 150 dishwashing loads. Generally, I extraction rinse once a year and quarterly maintain the carpet with encapsulation cleanings. There is no phosphate in the encapsulation and any powdered phosphate rinse is usually diluted 1 to 640 .15% of the ready to use formula. My point is that phosphate usage in our industry isn't even a blip on the phosphate radar. The use of phosphate based fertilizer is a remaining concern by environmentalists.

If we are disposing of our waste water correctly/responsibly, and I grant that is a big IF.
Would you say that we should be using more phosphates in our cleaning agents or are they limited to the .5% that you mentioned with the laundry, auto, and dish detergents?

 

[Tom Forsythe]

Our industry makes concentrated products that can be diluted heavily. One of our best powdered pre-sprays will have 1.5% phophate in the ready to use gallon and our best rinses will have .15% or less phosphate in ready to use gallons. Based on my annual laundry and dishwashing loads estimated at 350 and one annual extraction cleaning, you see that the total amount used in that one cleaning versus 350 loads is not particularly important to consider in the macro perspective. Phosphate is mined from rock with Morocco being the biggest supplier so it comes from nature. Phosphates also work well at high dilutions where other ingredients need to be used at more concentrated dilutions so less resources are being used. In our society we focus on the micro and do not focus on the macro big picture. I had a recent cleaner who used a 100% green product and was reluctant to use a better cleaner for the job which was 98% green in the ready to use version. Why are we focused on a micro difference of 2%? It is like arguing with your teacher to get the 98% A+ changed to a 100% A+. We need to think in broader terms and not to get hung up on minor details.

 

[Nate The Great]

Devil's in the details...

 

[Cleanworks]

In Canada, they banned phosphates in many cleaning agents primarily because of eutrophication in water ways. Properly disposed carpet cleaning effluent goes into the sanitary sewage system where it is treated. Phosphates used in powerwashing, streetside car washing, etc, go straight into the storm drains and into lakes and streams adding excess nutrients (fertilizer) and causing accelerated plant growth. Ironically, since banning the phospates, we have several urban lakes that have been going sterile as far as new plant growth goes. They are now adding phosphate fertilizers to these lake to promote algae and other plant growth. Phosphates in carpet cleaning products can be environmentally friendly.

 

[BIG WOOD]

Devil's in the details...

Hey Nate, could you hook me up with your avatar's digits? Who's the devil now

 

[GeeeAus]

Our industry makes concentrated products that can be diluted heavily. One of our best powdered pre-sprays will have 1.5% phophate in the ready to use gallon and our best rinses will have .15% or less phosphate in ready to use gallons. Based on my annual laundry and dishwashing loads estimated at 350 and one annual extraction cleaning, you see that the total amount used in that one cleaning versus 350 loads is not particularly important to consider in the macro perspective. Phosphate is mined from rock with Morocco being the biggest supplier so it comes from nature. Phosphates also work well at high dilutions where other ingredients need to be used at more concentrated dilutions so less resources are being used. In our society we focus on the micro and do not focus on the macro big picture. I had a recent cleaner who used a 100% green product and was reluctant to use a better cleaner for the job which was 98% green in the ready to use version. Why are we focused on a micro difference of 2%? It is like arguing with your teacher to get the 98% A+ changed to a 100% A+. We need to think in broader terms and not to get hung up on minor details.

Tom Radon is from nature and it causes lung cancer. Come to think of it caner is also from nature.

The devil IS in the details. All Australian laundry soaps are now essentially phosphate free. I honestly think you are looking at the ecological issue backward.

May I ask you Tom how old you consider the Earth to be?

 

[NobleCarpetCleaners]

Mike I get my CBS powder from my local shop, CleanHub. I'll post a picture of my 370 install after I'm out of warranty. This, this Dec.

 

[Tom Forsythe]

It is all about BALANCE. With the exception of fertilizer, I think the phosphate concerns are negligible in the United States. Go tackle another problem. The issue with regulations is they go too far and are NOT adequately enforced, except as an option for political payback. The U.S. is going through a pruning phase hopefully getting back to a proper balance. I do not know what the age of the earth has to do with the topic, but only the creator knows the age of the earth. In my view, carbon dating is statistical extrapolation. I also love it when all the scientific views relating to politics are described as settled science as they reach for your pocketbook. Science is never settled as I spend alot of time looking for the next best thing in cleaning chemistry.

 

[Tom Forsythe]

Sorry I tried to edit line 4 to say that they are NOT adequately enforced. For some reason it did not take.

 

[Cleanworks]

Sorry I tried to edit line 4 to say that they are NOT adequately enforced. For some reason it did not take.

It's like preventing carpet cleaners from dumping in the streets but letting people wash their cars in their driveways.

 

[Loren Egland]

Seems like a good place to bring this up. I have had these products that I have identified as Product Old A, New A, B, C, D. These are the list of ingredients on the labels. All are powders. Any insight as to differences or similarities and their properties? Are some of these terms simply other names for the same thing? Thanks.

Loren


Hot Water Extraction Detergents

Old Product A
Sodium Tripolyphosphate
Sodium Sulfate
Sodium Bicarbonate
Propylene Glycol
Nonionic Ethoxylate
pH 9-9.5
New Product A
Sodium Chloride
Sodium Hexametaphosphate
Sodium Bicarbonate
Sodium Carbonate
Nonionic Ethoxylate
pH 9-9.5
Product B
Sodium Sesquicarbonate
Sodium Sulfate
Sodium Tripolyphosphate
Ethoxylated Alcohol
Sodium Polyacrylate
Product C
Surfactant Blend
Sodium Tripolyphosphate
Sodium Salt
Glycol Ether PM
Sodium Metasilicate
pH 10-10.5 at 1%
Product D
Sodium Tripolyphosphate
Sodium Carbonate
Surfactants
Monosodium Phosphate
pH 9.6
Product E
Sodium Sulphate
Triphosphoric acid – sodium salt
Trisodium Nitrilotriacetate
Ethoxylated Alcohols
Diphosphoric acid – sodium salt
b-Alanine-N-(2-Carboxyethyl)-N-[3-(decyloxy)propyl] monosodium salt
Sodium 2 – Mercaptobenzothiazole
Ready to use pH 9.6

 

[Tom Forsythe]

Loren, call me @ 800-658-5314 ext. 2242 as there is too much to write.

 

[Jimmy L]

Go with " C"

 

[Cleanworks]

Go with " C"

Salt, salt and more salt.

 

[Loren Egland]

Loren, call me @ 800-658-5314 ext. 2242 as there is too much to write.

I will try to call you next week.

Thanks Tom.

 

[SamIam]

A gal of liquid 90 goes about 8 5 gal pre mixs 16 oz per 5 gal jug.

 

[SamIam]

Tom Radon is from nature and it causes lung cancer. Come to think of it caner is also from nature.

The devil IS in the details. All Australian laundry soaps are now essentially phosphate free. I honestly think you are looking at the ecological issue backward.

May I ask you Tom how old you consider the Earth to be?

Liquid 90 is phosphate free

 

[SamIam]

It also dilutes 1-920 very concentrated and super heavy.

 

[DAT]

Ive learned a lot. Good education about the rinse.

 

[jcooper]

Propylene Glycol

I know this one's is used in a lot of things and is bad for us.

It's used in MOST deodorants(on our skin!)...

 

[Mikey P]

Ive learned a lot. Good education about the rinse.

Keep studying....

 

[steve_64]

In Canada, they banned phosphates in many cleaning agents primarily because of eutrophication in water ways. Properly disposed carpet cleaning effluent goes into the sanitary sewage system where it is treated. Phosphates used in powerwashing, streetside car washing, etc, go straight into the storm drains and into lakes and streams adding excess nutrients (fertilizer) and causing accelerated plant growth. Ironically, since banning the phospates, we have several urban lakes that have been going sterile as far as new plant growth goes. They are now adding phosphate fertilizers to these lake to promote algae and other plant growth. Phosphates in carpet cleaning products can be environmentally friendly.

Phosphates cause algae bloom which chokes out agautic life in many instances. I was under the impression that waste treatment facilities can not properly process all the phosphates coming through.

When we get heavy rains here a lot of unprocessed waste gets dumped straight into the river from the treatment facilities. They can't handle the overflow.

During heavy rains farm feild runoff goes to the ditches and creeks and ends up in the river then the lake. That water is full of phosphates and weed killers.

 

[Larry Cobb]

Liquid 90 is phosphate free

Sam; Phosphates are very effective cleaning agents.
We use them in our StainResist Powder alkaline rinse agent (pH=9.5).

Look at Tom's article in the current CleanFax where he finds liquid rinses ineffective. The best powder rinse had a pH of 9.5, which indicates it is most likely STPP.

http://www.cleanfax.com/carpet-care/water-quality-extraction-rinses/

 

[SamIam]

Sam; Phosphates are very effective cleaning agents.
We use them in our StainResist Powder alkaline rinse agent (pH=9.5).

Look at Tom's article in the current CleanFax where he finds liquid rinses ineffective. The best powder rinse had a pH of 9.5, which indicates it is most likely STPP.

http://www.cleanfax.com/carpet-care/water-quality-extraction-rinses/

Not sure about effective ineffective, but liquid 90 doesn't leave build up in filters and has a nice cleaning punch, its got a little more pop then procyon plus. Most green poweders lack any punch.