When and where do you use an Alkaline rinse?

[Mike Pailliotet]

Where do you buy it Scott?

and when you get a second please post some photos of your 370/van set up.

 

[EDS]

Coles notes:

Alkaline good for that extra kick in grungy carpet...but must be metered correctly and not used in tandem with nuclear pre-spray.

Acid as a precautinary measure when using high ph pre-spray or when fine fabric cleaning involved...but wears on equipment and has very little cleaning power.

Either way a alkaline rinse should be on the truck just in case...

Cleaning agents used should be dependent on the situation and not just a formality...I have been using my application of said cleaning product in leu of circumstances. Mainly for sake ease...

 

[SteamwayPro]

I never use alkaline rinse anymore. I use Flex Ice or Magic Wand's Crystal Rinse. Good prespray and then CRB or for trashed apartments 13'' 175 with Bonnet Pro's Multii Brush System gets it clean.

 

[Jim Pemberton]

Keep in mind that much of what is considered to be "industry standards", such as keeping presprays under 10 in pH, came from the "stain resist nylon revolution" that began in 1986. 30 years ago we were faced with a trend away from earthtones (brown, olive, rust...dirt colored carpet) and toward nylon in pastels and even white.

Today nylon is no longer the "king of fibers". Instead, we are cleaning more oil loving "polys", which are subject to more pet related oily soils than ever before ( expanding pet ownership and the shift of perception from "pets" to "fur babies/four legged children" is a huge factor here), as well as tracked on sticky residues from in home hard floor cleaning products.

Its now a "perfect storm" of the worst soil conditions on the worst fiber choices.

Its good that we are no longer controlled by some of the mythology that came during those early days regarding pH, as how we cleaned 25-30 years ago is not sufficient in the face of what is often present in carpets today.

 

[EDS]

Keep in mind that much of what is considered to be "industry standards", such as keeping presprays under 10 in pH, came from the "stain resist nylon revolution" that began in 1986. 30 years ago we were faced with a trend away from earthtones (brown, olive, rust...dirt colored carpet) and toward nylon in pastels and even white.

Today nylon is no longer the "king of fibers". Instead, we are cleaning more oil loving "polys", which are subject to more pet related oily soils than ever before ( expanding pet ownership and the shift of perception from "pets" to "fur babies/four legged children" is a huge factor here), as well as tracked on sticky residues from in home hard floor cleaning products.

Its now a "perfect storm" of the worst soil conditions on the worst fiber choices.

Its good that we are no longer controlled by some of the mythology that came during those early days regarding pH, as how we cleaned 25-30 years ago is not sufficient in the face of what is often present in carpets today.

Will using a higher ph cleaning product void warranty on new carpets if discovered?

 

[Jim Pemberton]

If one follows the cleaning guidelines for one of the large manufacturer's carpets using triexta fiber, the customer would be having their carpet cleaned every year to 18 months, it would be vacuumed by them regularly, and spots would be given prompt attention. If that is done, then using a pH "under 10" would likely work well enough to get the carpet clean.

Its also interesting that in the same guideline that recommends cleaners to have a pH under 10, they also recommend ammonia for spotting, which has a pH of 11.6. While its fair to say that ammonia self neutralizes, one could also fairly say that presprays and spotters over 10 will also be rinsed with no residue persisting after extraction.

It would be sensible not to leave residues that exceed 10 in the carpet of course. You would have to have an incredibly high pH detergent to leave the carpet in that condition.

Most carpets read close to neutral after hot water extraction with an alkaline carpet detegent suitable for extraction cleaning.

 

[Larry Cobb]

We had a large carpet mfg. rep bring us some "Poly" carpet with premature traffic lanes in a house where only a man & wife lived.

It did not clean up well with a pH over the 10 limit, including d'Limonene. Appeared to be excess oil in carpet.

Finally, had to add POG to the prespray to remove the oil. Cleaned up nicely.

Later, saw this ad in a trade paper about removing excessive "lubricants".

 

[Cleanworks]

Higher pH products may clean better in some situations but come with some inherent risks. The higher the pH, the more risk of burning yourself with the product. High pH products can take your skin off. Repeated exposure can cause a chemical induced eczema where your skin develops a rash and starts to peel off. Not good for your respiratory system as well. Not to mention the risk of carpet damage, cellulosic browning, dye bleed and invalidating warranties on stain resist nylon carpets. Jim is exactly right that the low pH revolution began with the advent of stain resist nylon carpet but the good thing that came from that is that the chemical manufacturers could no longer rely on high pH products to "burn" the soil out of carpets and had to reformulate their products to make them safer and yet still work. Carpet cleaners were taught how to clean carpets using lower pH, less heat, more agitation and more dwell time. It still works today. There were some really good products that came out in the late 80's that are still top of the line products today. I remember products like Steamway's formula O. Probably one of the first of the citrus products. It worked well and had a fresh orange scent when done. pH about 9. Then they added an enzyme to it and called it Spectrum. Great for restaurants and still it was 9.5 pH. Most other manufacturers followed suit and there were a lot of good quality, lower pH products that actually worked well. I rarely use products with a pH over 10 and then it is only on commercial carpet. I value my health a lot more now and have found products that work well for me. I have no desire to go back to high pH, petroleum products and breath that poison in.

 

[Larry Cobb]

Ron;

There needs to be some distinction as what pH is hazardous.

My definition is that up to ~11 does not generally cause skin irritation and choking.

A ph of 12 & up will definitely cause choking when spraying.

Toxicity is due to many factors. It could be a hi pH ingredient, a solvent, a surfactant, or other materials in a formulation.

Try to understand the SDS for the products you use.

They are the basic info for the products you work with.

 

[Jim Pemberton]

There needs to be some distinction as what pH is hazardous.
My definition is that up to ~11 does not generally cause irritation and choking.
A ph of 12 & up will definitely cause choking when spraying.
Toxicity is due to many factors. It could be a hi pH ingredient, a solvent, a surfactant, or other materials in a formulation.
Try to understand the SDS for the products you use.
They are the basic info for the products you work with.

Good stuff Larry, thanks for sharing it.

 

[Cleanworks]

Ron;

There needs to be some distinction as what pH is hazardous.

My definition is that up to ~11 does not generally cause irritation and choking.

A ph of 12 & up will definitely cause choking when spraying.

Toxicity is due to many factors. It could be a hi pH ingredient, a solvent, a surfactant, or other materials in a formulation.

Try to understand the SDS for the products you use.

They are the basic info for the products you work with.

You are right Larry. There are many ingredients that can cause reactions in people. Not just the pH. I am not worried about someone using an 11 pH product but there are some right on this board that advertise a 13pH. For me, that's getting too dangerous. I do have some products that are 10.5-11.5 pH for certain situations but find that 90% of my cleaning I can use products such as Procyon and add a little agitation, some times respray a troublesome area and rerinse it and it will come out fine. I have had personal experience with losing skin to high pH products which has made me leery of going too strong again. There are other ways.

 

[EDS]

Ron;

There needs to be some distinction as what pH is hazardous.

My definition is that up to ~11 does not generally cause skin irritation and choking.

A ph of 12 & up will definitely cause choking when spraying.

Toxicity is due to many factors. It could be a hi pH ingredient, a solvent, a surfactant, or other materials in a formulation.

Try to understand the SDS for the products you use.

They are the basic info for the products you work with.

I have yet to grow a third nipple and am routinely around a 12 with a booster...(but the jury is still out on the effect on my cognitive abilities...)

 

[Tom Forsythe]

Good discussion from a lot of informed cleaners. Someone asked the question about how a carpet could be at a 7 pH when both pre-spray and rinse have a pH around or above 10. Alot of carpet soils are acidic and oil. Acidic soils neutralize some of that alkalinity. Alkalinity is also used to dissolve oils. We did one test with Flex Powder with a pH around 12 on a dirty carpet and rinsed with water resulting in a pH around 9. The drop in alkalinity is a result of it being used up in cleaning. Using a side by side test we rinsed with Flex Ice and got the pH to 7. If you are using pre-spray around 10 and an emulsifier around 10 the neutralization of the pH from soils could easily get the pH to 7. We need to remember that a pH of 10 with a pre-spray diluted 1 to 32 compared to a rinse diluted 1 to 320 and a pH of 10 do not have the same level of alkalinity. In essence the pre-spray has 10 times the alkalinity. Also most rinses with an abundance of rinse aid ingredients will carry away in the water stream not only the "globs of soil and oils" but also most remaining pre-spray. A good rinse in soft water removes most residues including soil and residual cleaning products. Hard water significantly hinders this removal process. If you want to excel at rinsing all types of carpets start with soft water!!!

 

[Jim Pemberton]

Good discussion from a lot of informed cleaners. Someone asked the question about how a carpet could be at a 7 pH when both pre-spray and rinse have a pH around or above 10. Alot of carpet soils are acidic and oil. Acidic soils neutralize some of that alkalinity. Alkalinity is also used to dissolve oils. We did one test with Flex Powder with a pH around 12 on a dirty carpet and rinsed with water resulting in a pH around 9. The drop in alkalinity is a result of it being used up in cleaning. Using a side by side test we rinsed with Flex Ice and got the pH to 7. If you are using pre-spray around 10 and an emulsifier around 10 the neutralization of the pH from soils could easily get the pH to 7. We need to remember that a pH of 10 with a pre-spray diluted 1 to 32 compared to a rinse diluted 1 to 320 and a pH of 10 do not have the same level of alkalinity. In essence the pre-spray has 10 times the alkalinity. Also most rinses with an abundance of rinse aid ingredients will carry away in the water stream not only the "globs of soil and oils" but also most remaining pre-spray. A good rinse in soft water removes most residues including soil and residual cleaning products. Hard water significantly hinders this removal process. If you want to excel at rinsing all types of carpets start with soft water!!!

If I could be half as smart as Tom when I grow up I'd be happy....

Thanks Tom!

 

[steve_64]

If I could be half as smart as Tom when I grow up I'd be happy....

Thanks Tom!

You should be happy anyway Jim. We all should be.

 

[Tom Forsythe]

There is a reason why the collective experience, knowledge and wisdom (applied knowledge) of a community like Mikeysboard benefits us all. We all know things (Jim you are an expert in upholstery among other things), but I monitor the boards to transform the theoretical into the practical and real world experience. I worked in a rug plant for a few hours on Tuesday and was able to see some of our products work on a urine filled rug that I could never find on my own. I wanted to clean longer as that experience is invaluable in grounding some theoretical principles into the real world. Unfortunately, I had to leave and go into another meeting.

 

[Jimmy L]

EncapucleanO2 Tom fix it

 

[hogjowl]

EncapucleanO2 Tom fix it

Your such a little bitch

 

[BIG WOOD]

Good discussion from a lot of informed cleaners. Someone asked the question about how a carpet could be at a 7 pH when both pre-spray and rinse have a pH around or above 10. Alot of carpet soils are acidic and oil. Acidic soils neutralize some of that alkalinity. Alkalinity is also used to dissolve oils. We did one test with Flex Powder with a pH around 12 on a dirty carpet and rinsed with water resulting in a pH around 9. The drop in alkalinity is a result of it being used up in cleaning. Using a side by side test we rinsed with Flex Ice and got the pH to 7. If you are using pre-spray around 10 and an emulsifier around 10 the neutralization of the pH from soils could easily get the pH to 7. We need to remember that a pH of 10 with a pre-spray diluted 1 to 32 compared to a rinse diluted 1 to 320 and a pH of 10 do not have the same level of alkalinity. In essence the pre-spray has 10 times the alkalinity. Also most rinses with an abundance of rinse aid ingredients will carry away in the water stream not only the "globs of soil and oils" but also most remaining pre-spray. A good rinse in soft water removes most residues including soil and residual cleaning products. Hard water significantly hinders this removal process. If you want to excel at rinsing all types of carpets start with soft water!!!

In other words...put a little salt in the chemical jug and run it through the rinse with our water temp set over boiling instead of buying the Alkaline rinse product?

 

[Mike Pailliotet]

If I could be half as smart as Tom when I grow up I'd be happy....

Thanks Tom!

if I could be half as good looking...

 

[GeeeAus]

Hmm...

This is where I feel a little bad. I disagree with a very respected member. Not in the technical details as they are absolutely correct. More at how we view the big picture zoomed all the way out to the total end result level.

Acids All The Way.

If it is true that we can take the carpet up to a pH of 12.5 and between the forces of soil, extraction and rinsing with alkaline solution at very dilute quantities and get back to 9, then rinse with an acid rinse and get back to 7, then skip the middle man.

The reality is the carpets that have a positive charge (acidic) resist soiling better than carpets with a more negative charge (including neutral). Alkalinity and acidity is a continuum. Why not effect not just a near neutralisation when you can achieve a wholesale reversal.

Its rare where it's possible to do something so ideal for the carpet. I think it's accepting a passible compromise to finish jobs with an alkaline rinse. Good acid rinses have neutral water softeners and surfactants to serve as rinse aids. Water is naturally inclined toward becoming acidic as it's temperature rises. Add some other acid solution to some water and make some liquor, then heat it, you get a further bump in acidity that's only temporary and residue free.

@Mikey P has nailed it. Use acids all the time. Leave alkalis to restaurants and grease pits. And even these clean up well done right.

If you are resorting to spiking the pH of your solution you haven't preconditioned adequately. Go back to WATCH, what can you do to make it balance out and get your result - before - the finishing step.

Carpet fibres are a "domain" to water molecules. They occupy it. Whatever goes in first will be the last thing to come out. Thats a FILO system. First In Last Out. Whats the first water based liquid you introduce to the domain? Your soapy as shit pre-spray.

Think about that.

Who starts their extraction with a "dry" pass. We all should. We should all try to suck up that soapy stuff without putting in any more water. More water simply dilutes it but also drives it an and ensures it's now harder to get our "first" in chemical back; we know that is the "last" moisture to come out.

 

[Mike Pailliotet]

See that Marty?

 

[GeeeAus]

Lets now bait @hogjowl . He's a skeptical thinker, a not easily lead, didn't come down in the last shower, not as silly as they dress him, wasn't born yesterday kind of guy.

And ya need that in a good group as much as anything.

 

[GCCLee]

Heck yea, learned I was doing something right for a change....


I'm smarter than I thought

 

[hogjowl]

What y'all really need is a woman.

To get you thinking about more than acid rinses and OP machines.

 

[GCCLee]

I married up

 

[Jimmy L]

But Marty you see if someone who comes on here as an expert and maker of chems says this and that bla bla bla.
But can't fix his formulation that doesn't work and I have complained about for two years.............makes you think about the rest of his chem line? He is NO Shawn Forsythe!

 

[hogjowl]

Isn't Shawn ignoring Mytees problems now?

 

[steve_64]

Don't those surfacants in the acid rinses get left behind?

My prespray is not foamy.

I started doing fresh water rinses last year. Works most of the time.

 

[Mike Pailliotet]

Isn't Shawn ignoring Mytees problems now?

I don't think they treat him well...