Why Do Mills Not Approve Rotary Machines?

[dantraub]

I have a carpet store owner client who sells a lot of commercial carpet . I want him to get me not only residential, but also commerciall, jobs , and he'll get referral fees. However, he has been told by Shaw reps that only HWA is acceptable to clean any, even commercial, carpet. I want to show him any rescource verifying that O.P., cylindrical brush or counter-rotating brush cleaning is different from spin pad cleaning, and: B) That it is not harmful to carpet and won't void warranties. However, all the mills on CRI's website only endorse hot water extraction or "dry particle" cleaning . Whats up with that?

 

[Shawn Forsythe]

Rotary devices utilize a myriad of head options, including but not limited to brushes of many types and stiffnesses, pads of different materials, pad "pile" heights and thicknesses, and pads of varying construction and aggression.

Rather than cherry pick a select few styles of head design along with the appropriate methodology of application of cleaning chemicals and methodology, carpet mills have decided it is infinitely easier to disallow the entire mechanism of rotary cleaning.

In most cases, relegating a rotary device to an inexperienced or untrained operator is a risky maneuver on many types of carpet. The potential for damaging fiber bundles is too high and the return to the mills is too low to endorse select subsegment of safe combinations of rotary use on a subsegment of carpet types for which it might be safe to do so.

HWE is sometimes specifically mentioned by mills as an appropriate means simply due to statistics. HWE is more prevalent, more universally taught, and the method is thought to be more safe, IN A GENERAL SENSE. I repeat, in a general sense.

Sure, you will find anecdotal scenarios where HWE WOULD NOT be appropriate. But in statistical sense, it is generally regarded as one of the more safe methodologies by which most residential and commercial carpet can be cleaned with the prevalent form and level of education available. Rotary cleaning, while ubiquitous for hard surfaces is a specialized cleaning methodology safe for a smaller subsegment carpet, and only using specific head apparatus with a deeper level of training. It is much easier for mills to simply disallow rotary at this time.

I think that just too many people are focusing attention, training, and research on OP, cylindrical, and "Cimex" type rotary for the mills to remain "gun shy" for the long term. This, and expansion of training afforded by IICRC instructors & current movement to revise the S-100 standard will progress the mills to look more favorably upon more diverse means of the other methods and systems in the future.

 

[timnelson]

I think the Shaw rep may be mistaken. It is my understanding that they do accept encapsulation cleaning as an interim method.


http://www.shawcontractgroup.com/html/h ... ochure.pdf

 

[Jimmy L]

Since the OP/Bonnet/Cimex all do a form of Bonnet cleaning it is NOT recomended.

So I'm assuming that eNcapsULaTIOn aka SHAMPOOING is only to be done by a counter rotating brush machine.

Since it in its movement will not be GRINDING IN THE DIRT.

 

[Lonny]

Are they saying that the rotary head(beater bar) on an upright vac is not permissible as a cleaning device? I know -probably not vacuums, but plain silliness...

 

[Bob Foster]

 

[Shawn Forsythe]

Are they saying that the rotary head(beater bar) on an upright vac is not permissible as a cleaning device? I know -probably not vacuums, but plain silliness...

No, they have been much more specific than that. Rotary equipment is a specific class of devices patterned after the rotary floor machine.

They are not talking about vacuums, nor RX-20's, nor cylindrical brush encap machines. These are not considered rotarys.

 

[Larry B]

Bob what was the cause of the damage in that picture? What was used pad or brush?

 

[J Scott W]

Have your carpet sales customer contact Shaw Technical Services to explain any misunderstandings.

I was able to work with Shaw recently on some commercial sites where they specifically reccommended CRB machine and encap as interim cleaning. I don't think they reccommend rotary machines with brushes.

Scott Warrington

 

[Jimmy L]

So any machine which revolves around an axis is NOT recomended.

And anyway you explain "Planetary movement" is STILL a rotary.


And I assume that a vacuum with a beater bar is also not recomended either.

 

[Wayne Miller]

Considering Carey Mitchell said in Cleanfax not that many years ago that, when properly performed, bonnet cleaning "causes little or no harm" I suspect somebody isn't making carpet as good as they used to.

So, when people ask these days I recommend "anything but Shaw."

 

[The Great Oz]

Rotary, as in a shampooer or spin bonnet machine, are fairly easy to do some damage with if not used properly. Cylindrical machines and vacuums use a brush that doesn't spin circles into the carpet. It is easier for a mill to say no to everyone than micro-manage methods. Also, the mills want to stop "cleaners" from loading carpet up with crap and then blaming the carpet for poor performance. They know that certain methods will cause problems but can't ban a franchise or a brand, so ban the entire methodology. If you're sure you know what you're doing and want to use a bonnet, you are choosing to take on the challenge of explaining to anyone that asks or the responsibility of nullifying the carpet warranty.

 

[rotorob]

Bullshit baffles brains. I've been cleaning carpets with a rotary pad machine for over 30 years, without a damage claim. Meanwhilst, dancing with wandas, have generated many claims, to the point of not being able to insure the piece you're working on. Thanks fellas.

 

[Wayne Miller]

The simple truth, and we all know it, is politics.

Here's an interesting history lesson about Shaw and bonnet cleaning back before Shaw had CRI (who conveniently stopped recommending bonnet cleaning as a professional method with the advent of the SOA program) to take the heat from a lot of angry bonnet cleaners.

http://216.219.196.223/shaw/shaw.pdf

"Our experience over many years has been that the great majority of soiling complaints are directly related to the misuse of the bonnet. Note the term 'misuse.'"

So, it's misuse of the system, not the system, that's of concern. Aren't all systems misused and aren't the most used systems also the most misused?

"Properly used, the bonnet causes little harm."

The ServiceMaster study agreed. In fact, it found in some cases HWE caused more damage than bonnets.

"Only a small percentage of bonnet machines are in the hands of professional cleaners. The majority are in the hands of people who have little or no training. Experience has shown that the bonnet is misued more often than any other system, resulting in more problems than all others. This is the main reason why we recommend cleaning be done by trained and certified professionals."

What about those trained, certified professionals with bonnet machines? And, aren't all systems abused and aren't the most used systems also the most misused?

"Our maintenance literature is not is not directed to the professional cleaner but to the building owner, architect, manager, janitorial staff, etc. Our discouraging language about the bonnet in that literature is directed to those who misuse it (and other systems) most often."

One more time, fellows, it's not the professional cleaner they're concerned about. Please don't be angry at them, it's not you they're after, it's untrained idiots who misuse "it (and other systems) most often." And, there he said it, other systems are misused. So, wouldn't it also follow the most used systems would also be the most misused?

"We will continue to recommend hot water extraction....by trained certifed professionals."

So, prior to CRI SOA:

Trained, certified professionals: good. Bonnet cleaning: bad. Untrained, non-certified personnel: bad.

Then, we come to this from Shaw's website, http://www.shawfloors.com/cms/Articles.aspx?DN=1129,1112,1106,29,4,Documents

"Shaw warranties require that the homeowner be able to show proof of periodic cleaning by hot water extraction (commonly called "steam" cleaning) by a professional cleaning service or do-it-yourself system, using equipment that is certified under the Carpet and Rug Institute's Seal of Approval program. Visit http://www.carpet-rug.org for a list of approved products/equipment."

"...or do-it-yourself system, using equipment that is certified under the Carpet and Rug Institute's Seal of Approval program."

Now, post CRI-SOA:

Trained, certified professionals: optional. Bonnet cleaning: bad. Any old untrained, non-certified, clueless housewife or her child with the proper grocery store walk-behind: good.

Makes perfect sense, don't it?

 

[Harry Myers]

One word for the mill ready : PROTECTION.

 

[dantraub]

Thanks to Shawn and everyone else for replying. I still am looking for a rescource to show my client and set his mind at ease.
Dan

 

[Wayne Miller]

If you're worried about it become an IICRC certified bonnet cleaner. Bonnet cleaning is an IICRC recognized method.

 

[The Great Oz]

I'd recommend contacting Shaw and asking them if your method will void their warranty, as there's a difference between recommending a method and requiring a method. If they say HWE only, and your customer is concerned about the warranty, you'll have to choose between doing the work the way they want or not taking the job.

 

[tmdry]

First of, best post here goes to Mr. Wayne Miller.

Secondly, explain the benefits and results of your company and process not the tools or equipment used. Clients don't care what you use as long as they are happy and satisfied. When was the last time you asked a mechanic which tools they are going to use to fix your car? Who does that? No one, no one cares. As long as you trust them(hopefully you do), you know that the car will be "fixed" and you will be a happy camper.

Thirdly, 99% of all carpets installed ALREADY have their warranty's VOIDED. Chances are your customer and most our customer's warranty's are voided already. That has nothing to do with cleaning, this happens BEFORE AND DURING when the carpets are installed. Any rug repair and water damage inspector can tell you this. Warranty's are usually voided due to carpet stores/installers NOT taking care of the carpets properly, carpets should be laid flat and not in rolls, but go to any carpet store and check out their storage room and you see rolls and rolls of carpet. It's a big issue also with Area rugs that are imported from overseas.

Offcourse Shaw won't bring this up, all they see is "cleaning" rather than how carpets should be stores/maintained before installation.

 

[sweendogg]

TmDry,

You are full of crap, Carpet industries manufacture carpet into rolls in the manufactureing process.. They cannot void a warranty because carpet is stored in rolles.. Get the facts straight, Carpet must ACCLIMATE on the job for a certain time before installation can begin. Also the concrete and subfloor preperation must meat a minmum criteria such as acidity level, moisture and humidity readings. All these have to be with in certain tollerances to maintain warranties. Then correct adhesives and seam bonding agents must be used and documented. Now if this is not followed then sure the installation can void the warranty. But storing carpets in rolls voids warranties is BS. Our business have been successfully selling and installing residential and lots of commercial carpets for over 40 years. We have never voided a warranty because of installation or the way we store the carpet prior to installation. So does this mean we have fallen into that one cercent category? I don't think so. The Great OZ hit it on the head. Communication. Communicate with your client and with Shaw. If you are communicating with them you can figure out A. is the Carpet still warrantied, and B. if it is then follow their recommendations to maintain that warranty and make the client well aware of that info. Let the client make the desicion to void their own warranties if they want you to clean at less expensive cost. Or have this with you in your arsenal! :

http://www.shawcontractgroup.com/html/h ... ance05.pdf

Why take a risk in taking liability for any problems? As the proffesional its your job to educate your client and let them make a choice after they know what they can do regarding their warranty and what you can do.

And yes we all know its not the tools that are important regardless of cars or cleaning. But the right tool for the right job. Are you going to take your a car under warranty to a regular service station or have it worked on at a certified dealership to maintain the warranty?

 

[leesenter]

I have written specs on carpet maintenance for individual sites for Shaw.
I have included the use of the Whittaker machine using dry crystalline shampoo and each time it has been approved by Tech services.
As for bonnet cleaning, on an inspection we cannot fail a carpet for maintenance related issues just because it was bonnet cleaned. We must be able to correlate the improper use of bonnets to the damage to the carpet. I usually call the cleaner and ask them the precise way they bonnet clean the carpet. Most of the time the method of bonnet cleaning described is irresponsible IMO.
Servicemaster in Canada no longer allows the use of bonnets on commercial carpet. In my classes to them I must include the method in my class but add a disclaimer that many of their referring carpet mills have banned the use of bonnets.

 

[Wayne Miller]

Lee, what are these guys doing, dry bonneting, using the wrong chems? Proper bonnet cleaning is pretty straight forward, seems like you'd have to try to be irresponsible.

 

[leesenter]

To wayne Millar:
Good examples:
Last one I quizzed the cleaner on what he used as a cleaner for the bonnet cleaning.
He said he was using an extraction formula. This way there was no dry solvents to delaminate the carpet. He then gave me the name of the cleaner "to check it out". Yep, an extraction cleaner ground into the carpet with a dirty bonnet. Hmmmm I wonder why it delaminated.
Another good one, how many bonnets do you use for the 8000 sq ft each month? answer 3. Hmm I wonder why it gets dirtier each cleaning.
Another one with an OP machine. " I had it cleaned, it looked horrible. I called the carpet mill, they said to have it cleaned again, so I did and it looked even worse." That was a Martha Stewart Collection carpet from Shaw with NO TEXTURE RETENTION WARRANTY. The saxony had completely unravelled.
It really has to do with whether or not the carpet has been heat set and if it has a texture retention warranty.
SO many don't.

 

[Wayne Miller]

That might be the one thing carpet cleaning and brain surgery have in common. Hire an unqualified hack and someone's gonna get hurt.

 

[tmdry]

TmDry,

You are full of crap, Carpet industries manufacture carpet into rolls in the manufactureing process.. They cannot void a warranty because carpet is stored in rolles.. Get the facts straight, Carpet must ACCLIMATE on the job for a certain time before installation can begin. Also the concrete and subfloor preperation must meat a minmum criteria such as acidity level, moisture and humidity readings. All these have to be with in certain tollerances to maintain warranties. Then correct adhesives and seam bonding agents must be used and documented. Now if this is not followed then sure the installation can void the warranty. But storing carpets in rolls voids warranties is BS. Our business have been successfully selling and installing residential and lots of commercial carpets for over 40 years. We have never voided a warranty because of installation or the way we store the carpet prior to installation. So does this mean we have fallen into that one cercent category? I don't think so.

Listen up buddy calling me full of crap because you say your company does everything by code, does not make me an idiot...i didn't get my answer outta my ass, i was told by many instructors by the IICRC in both RUG Repair & Water Restoration, i'm sure they got their facts straight by being master at what they do and a lot of them are inspectors. No one said every company is in the "category" above, unfortunately not every company in the world do ethical work, in turn some and the "majority" unfortunately void warranty's.

No one said all installers are the same, don't take it personal...it's just a message board.

 

[sweendogg]

Didn't mean to get offensive but a few points you had were just a little off the wall. And the inspectors are going to say that alot of the claims are going to be installation related because most of the time the cleaning has uncovered an installtion issue or compounded an issue that was not addressed at time of installtion. We work with several senior level inspectors that are masters of their craft as well. And what a majority of they have found is their might have been an installation error that only voided part of the warranty. But the practice of of the cleaning voided out the rest. Just because a warranty may be voided does not mean we need to disregard the mill's recomendations for care. As proffesionals we should be treating every carpet as if it it did have a warranty and work from there. The mills with help from the inspectors decided what should be covered and what should not. Following the manufactures recommendations for care and communicating with all parties will eliminate any possiblity of a warranty issue from installtion being compounded or transfered to our liablity as cleaners.

 

[dantraub]

jeez-- take it easy guys its just carpet cleaning.
Dan

 

[Guest]

From Shaw Website copied and pasted!!

Shaw Industries does not recommend Bonnet cleaning systems.
These systems employ a rotating bonnet of terry cloth or other absorbent material to agitate the carpet pile and absorb soil. A detergent solution is sprayed onto the pile and then worked with the bonnet attached to a rotary floor polisher. The Bonnet system has very limited capability for soil removal and leaves much of the detergent in the pile since it employs no real extraction. As a result, rapid re-soiling often occurs. Another disadvantage is that the spinning bonnet may distort the fibers of cut pile carpet, fuzz the pile, and leave distinct swirl marks.

Do-It-Yourself Carpet Cleaning
If you decide to rent a steam cleaning machine and clean your carpet yourself, you'll need to choose your equipment carefully. Most rental units available do not adequately clean and may actually damage the carpet. Do-it-yourself system equipment and cleaning products must be certified under the Carpet and Rug Institute's Seal of Approval program. Visit www.carpet-rug.org for a list of approved products/equipment. Check several cleaning systems before making a selection and consider the following:

 

[Wayne Miller]

It's gets better,

"Shaw Industries had previously announced that effective January 2007, their residential warranties pertaining to cleaning claims will only be honored if consumers have their carpet cleaned with equipment and chemistry that has earned the Carpet & Rug Institute’s (CRI) Seal of Approval (SOA). In January 2008, a further requirement is added that the cleaning company must be certified by the Institute for Inspection, Cleaning and Restoration Certification (IICRC) using IICRC certified technicians."

Is your equipment on that list? What about your chems? Got all the proper credentials? Credentials your customers don't need when they clean it themselves with equipment we all seem to laugh about.

http://www.certifiedcleaners.org/pr_shaw.shtml

 

[Greenie]

Dug this up on a search...I especially like the link that Sween provided above, funny the wording Shaw Contract in part of it:
Cleaning by high-performance hot-water extraction


Then there is no mention (that I could find) of what exactly High Perf. HWE was, or how to accomplish it...maybe they just should have put a link to Mikeys...