Why Manufacturers stay away from the boards

[ronbeatty]

I need to clear up a few misconceptions. I stayed out of the battle between Shawn and Sapphire earlier this year. I was ask to give a statement against Bill and Sapphire, I declined. It has been implied by Mike that I have been providing Shawn with info to help him with his appeal. I have not. I would like to see Sapphire be successful in their business, I would also like to see my business continue to do well in a tough economy.
I have a fax from Tuthill Blowers stating that the blower legs are warped which caused the blowers on both of my trucks to fail. The heat from the blower outlet between the legs caused the warping. This manufacturing defect, I am sure was the cause of the initial failure of the four blowers on my Vortex's. I already had sent a blower out in October to have it rebuilt. That blower has been remounted and is knocking because of the twist the legs put on the blower. I need to have reliable carpet cleaning units.
I would be willing to talk to Sapphire and try to come to a reasonable end to this issue.

 

[Bjorn]

Get an attorney

 

[Lee Stockwell]

Get an attorney

Why?

 

[joe harper]

Ron..
Are you paying for these blower replacements...?
Or did Tuthill...replace under warranty...?

I would THINK that Tuthill would @ some point say...Whooo...!

There is a FLAW in the design of this application...!!!

FOUR blowers.... :shock:

 

[Jim Martin]

I have a fax from Tuthill Blowers stating that the blower legs are warped which caused the blowers on both of my trucks to fail. The heat from the blower outlet between the legs caused the warping.

Ron..understand that I am really trying to grasp this.....and it makes no real since to me.....
......the metal on those blower legs have go to be at least a 1/4 inch thick.....does anyone realize how much heat it would take to warp this metal.....it would have to get cherry red in order to make a dent in it......what am I missing........the heat from the blower outlet should be nothing but radiating heat..because the hot air is being directed into a HX.....

 

[Bjorn]

get to two attorneys and a metallurgist

 

[Mikey P]

Ron, did you shim the blower to get it to fit those feet or did you crank the living shit out of the bolts?

Btw, I was not implying that you were trying to help Shawn with his case (far too late for that) I was just wondering where he got that picture that only you and ss employees have seen

Ron, why don't you just sell that wd equipment and set those things up to run on propane and be done with this nightmare? Seriously??????

 

[ronbeatty]

Mike, I did not install the blowers, they were replaced or rebuilt by Tuthill's authorized repair center. How much of your money would you want to kick in when you paid $200,000.00 to buy them.

 

[Brian R]

Just for the record I hate to see any carpet cleaner struggle.

 

[Mikey P]

Mike, I did not install the blowers, they were replaced or rebuilt by Tuthill's authorized repair center. How much of your money would you want to kick in when you paid $200,000.00 to buy them.

I would have returned them when the 2nd blower failed.
I understand that with all that extra bling you added to them why you chose to hang on.



Ron do you have a time line of events of this whole nightmare?

 

[steve g]

jim, to say I get my info from the boards is a laugh, the only person saying the things I am is me, so how could that be coming from the board. I am no slouch in mechanical knowledge myself. years of common sense knowledge from having to repair items on a ranch and working on some hotrods as well as maintaining a fleet of CC machines for 3 companies I worked for before starting my own business. I also stop in an frequent my suppliers repair shops. (we have at least 3 in the area) I talk to the guys working there look at what they are doing and have been known to pitch in and help every now and then. I also talk to the guys who own the machines. THIS IS WHERE I GET MY KNOWLEDGE by seeing real problems and talking to real people. These people aren't on the boards. They don't have an ego and are too afraid to tell the truth about their machines. as to parts yeah I guess everywhere parts can be found if you are willing to reengineer the machine and be satisfied converting the machine over to say propane or fuel oil heat. or be satisfied doing some other ethnic american engineered repair.

jim, you still have just blown smoke and blanketly said my facts are wrong. while not pointing out really anything other than parts me being wrong about. and I still say I am not wrong about that. I think seeing actual problems with machines and talking to the owners is far better than just hearing it on the boards. being from utah is it not also fair to think that their might just be a FEW more of these machines out there. how many vortex machines are in your area, jim?? what your own??

telling ron to convert to propane isn't a solution that I would accept. running a propane machine is a PITA, for one its ads a considerable amount of expense, it ads having another tank under the machine that has to be filled up. there isn't propane for sale on every street corner, it also means tracking down the guy to fill it and waiting for him to do it. what about after hours, who is going to sell the propane then. what happens if you run out on the job?? the fact is ron bought a machine, if it can be proven it was a faulty design the company should make it right. its about doing the right thing when noone is watching and when people are watching. whats to say legends doesn't buy out another company and then refuse to fix that companies machines. until recently ron had been singing the praises of vortex, so he doesn't appear to be a guy with an axe to grind. I think he is frustrated and wants his machines to work and doesn't feel like replacing the blower every year. the solution to me sounds like trying to convert the thing over to an aerotech heating system.

and lastly jim, your too nice of a guy to get in a pissing match with, I can agree to disagree all day long, but I stand by what I have said, if I speculated I prefaced that with what I said.

 

[joe harper]

Is it just me...?

But it seems to me that Pack Mentality ..here has already decided that this
problem is OPERATOR ERROR... :shock:

Ron, has consistently offered a plausible response to every question asked...!!!

Why is there NO burden of proof...or...explanianation from the manufacturer...?

MIKE...you obviously KNOW..."manufacturer" position on this issue... :!:
So are you going act as the defense attorney that alludes to the REAL problem here.:?:

It looks like this thread is NOT going to go away.... :!:

I agree that .."If the parties involved"..are seeking litigation to resolve this issue... :idea:
That it would NOT be wise to present their case in an open forum.... :|

HOWEVER....."If you want to PLAY..?" HypothEtIcAllY....."Lets PLaY"... 8)

I will take the "UndErDoG".....You can Have the "Corperate DyNASTY"... !gotcha!

THERE IS NO NEED FOR ALL THE FACTS... :roll:
We can pReTenD...that none of the parties involved will be EFFECTED.. :shock:
After-All...Nobody will make a decision to purchase any products or service from these
guy's... :!: And I am SURE ...none of the other BB's..will pay ANY ATTENTION.... thathurts

 

[Mikey P]

dont you have some 16 year old's to party down with?

 

[bob vawter]

dont you have some 16 year old's to party down with?
dont you have some 16 year old's to party down with?

and a Tee-Shirt PICTURE ta take?

 

[ronbeatty]

Steve, I appreciate your your input. I have already checked with Vlad, I cannot convert to the above the floor heat exchange. I have the 230 gallon waste tank. There is no way to raise it or move it over. As far as propane, I checked with my insurance carrier and they are going to let me know how they feel about me having 50 gallon of propane in a heated building

 

[Becker]

I think it is very cowardly to start a thread and run like a chicken. Honest businesses do really well on the boards even some dishonest ones. We aren't the morons you paint us to be we see 2 sides and some times 3 and 4 sides of a beef.
I got screwed by 2 companies Bridgepoint with the Bridgepoint Direct and Rotovac but I have to say they both are much bigger than me and both told me to go ACE myself and that shouldn't happen. Companies take advantage of the consumer knowing that they can overpower them with $$$$$$$ and now we have an outlet and can even the playing field.
Luckily Rotovac is in the unfortunate position of breaking some serious federal laws on their TOS and privacy rights and intellectual property so since the federal lawsuit was accepted they are in the unfortunate position of attending a hearing in boston in January. I am sure they will do what all the big guys do and claim they weren't properly served but it is going to be good since their IT guy posted all the info he had and kept all my emails from me and never refunded the simple couple bucks for set up and hosting. Dumb and dumber

I agree with Greg, I knew it would by years end.. With only 4 days to spare!

 

[floorguy]

Steve, I appreciate your your input. I have already checked with Vlad, I cannot convert to the above the floor heat exchange. I have the 230 gallon waste tank. There is no way to raise it or move it over. As far as propane, I checked with my insurance carrier and they are going to let me know how they feel about me having 50 gallon of propane in a heated building

50, 5, 150...wtf difference does it make???

you are either responsible with it or you are not...

5 would put a nice little hole in the wall to ya know

 

[Jim Martin]

Mike, I did not install the blowers, they were replaced or rebuilt by Tuthill's authorized repair center. How much of your money would you want to kick in when you paid $200,000.00 to buy them.

so they were re-installed by tuthill.......?..who shimmed the pillow block....how many times did tuthill pull and replace the blowers....did they put in a new one or re-install the old one with the bent foot.....???

 

[Dolly Llama]

HOWEVER....."If you want to PLAY..?" HypothEtIcAllY....."Lets PLaY"... 8)

I would, but it's FAR to important of a matter to one man's "bread and butter" that has been and is effected by very trouble$ome equipment failures
it's all "play" to us, but it's a very $erious matter when one's "money maker" ain't making money.

further, I'm not so sure that the "pack" is generally sympathetic to a lg "corporate entity" vs any "little guy".
if it would of been one of the couple/few "small manufactures" that fall into the "board favorites" category here, I'd agree with you Harp, and you WOULD see the "pack" yap and bite...but i don't think SS or Bruders has achieved such status .

i do agree with you on a few points you've made though

1.) Brudders was NUTZ to start this thread whining about "why manufactures don't blah, blah, blah"
It seemed prettydamnovbious it was in relationship to Ron's issues.
Brudders may have thought his thread was a needed PR move or explanation , but in reality all he did was paint a GREAT BIG BULLSEYE to draw fire

2.) JughEd needs to learn when and where to get involved
Being a surrogate mouthpiece for Brudders/SS (which is the role he's taken whether he's aware or not) isn't a good position for him .
at worst, he looks like he's protecting a paying advertiser
at best, it looks like he doesn't know how/when to separate personal friendships/relationships from "biz matters"


Never the less, I could easily take either side as "devils advocate" for hypothetical "play"
But it would be in VERY POOR taste to "play" when a man's livelihood is being effected .
and I'm sure we ALL hope Ron get's things squared away SOONER rather than latter



..L.T.A.

 

[Jim Martin]

jim, to say I get my info from the boards is a laugh, the only person saying the things I am is me, so how could that be coming from the board. I am no slouch in mechanical knowledge myself. years of common sense knowledge from having to repair items on a ranch and working on some hotrods as well as maintaining a fleet of CC machines for 3 companies I worked for before starting my own business. I also stop in an frequent my suppliers repair shops. (we have at least 3 in the area) I talk to the guys working there look at what they are doing and have been known to pitch in and help every now and then. I also talk to the guys who own the machines. THIS IS WHERE I GET MY KNOWLEDGE by seeing real problems and talking to real people. These people aren't on the boards. They don't have an ego and are too afraid to tell the truth about their machines. as to parts yeah I guess everywhere parts can be found if you are willing to reengineer the machine and be satisfied converting the machine over to say propane or fuel oil heat. or be satisfied doing some other ethnic american engineered repair.

jim, you still have just blown smoke and blanketly said my facts are wrong. while not pointing out really anything other than parts me being wrong about. and I still say I am not wrong about that. I think seeing actual problems with machines and talking to the owners is far better than just hearing it on the boards. being from utah is it not also fair to think that their might just be a FEW more of these machines out there. how many vortex machines are in your area, jim?? what your own??

telling ron to convert to propane isn't a solution that I would accept. running a propane machine is a PITA, for one its ads a considerable amount of expense, it ads having another tank under the machine that has to be filled up. there isn't propane for sale on every street corner, it also means tracking down the guy to fill it and waiting for him to do it. what about after hours, who is going to sell the propane then. what happens if you run out on the job?? the fact is ron bought a machine, if it can be proven it was a faulty design the company should make it right. its about doing the right thing when noone is watching and when people are watching. whats to say legends doesn't buy out another company and then refuse to fix that companies machines. until recently ron had been singing the praises of vortex, so he doesn't appear to be a guy with an axe to grind. I think he is frustrated and wants his machines to work and doesn't feel like replacing the blower every year. the solution to me sounds like trying to convert the thing over to an aerotech heating system.

and lastly jim, your too nice of a guy to get in a pissing match with, I can agree to disagree all day long, but I stand by what I have said, if I speculated I prefaced that with what I said.

there are 6 here in my town..use to be 7 but mine is gone.....4 of which I help service...fix..and gets parts for.....

I didn't read your whole post...not really going to do much good...we can agree to dis-agree and leave it at that....

 

[ronbeatty]

Jim, The legs were reused on all the blowers. They are a Blueline built custom leg to sit flat on the cradle, no shims. The one blower was replaced in Jan 09. The other one was rebuilt Feb 09. There was no modification to the legs ever.

 

[floorguy]

[quote="steve g":1ohohsp7]jim, to say I get my info from the boards is a laugh, the only person saying the things I am is me, so how could that be coming from the board. I am no slouch in mechanical knowledge myself. years of common sense knowledge from having to repair items on a ranch and working on some hotrods as well as maintaining a fleet of CC machines for 3 companies I worked for before starting my own business. I also stop in an frequent my suppliers repair shops. (we have at least 3 in the area) I talk to the guys working there look at what they are doing and have been known to pitch in and help every now and then. I also talk to the guys who own the machines. THIS IS WHERE I GET MY KNOWLEDGE by seeing real problems and talking to real people. These people aren't on the boards. They don't have an ego and are too afraid to tell the truth about their machines. as to parts yeah I guess everywhere parts can be found if you are willing to reengineer the machine and be satisfied converting the machine over to say propane or fuel oil heat. or be satisfied doing some other ethnic american engineered repair.

jim, you still have just blown smoke and blanketly said my facts are wrong. while not pointing out really anything other than parts me being wrong about. and I still say I am not wrong about that. I think seeing actual problems with machines and talking to the owners is far better than just hearing it on the boards. being from utah is it not also fair to think that their might just be a FEW more of these machines out there. how many vortex machines are in your area, jim?? what your own??

telling ron to convert to propane isn't a solution that I would accept. running a propane machine is a PITA, for one its ads a considerable amount of expense, it ads having another tank under the machine that has to be filled up. there isn't propane for sale on every street corner, it also means tracking down the guy to fill it and waiting for him to do it. what about after hours, who is going to sell the propane then. what happens if you run out on the job?? the fact is ron bought a machine, if it can be proven it was a faulty design the company should make it right. its about doing the right thing when noone is watching and when people are watching. whats to say legends doesn't buy out another company and then refuse to fix that companies machines. until recently ron had been singing the praises of vortex, so he doesn't appear to be a guy with an axe to grind. I think he is frustrated and wants his machines to work and doesn't feel like replacing the blower every year. the solution to me sounds like trying to convert the thing over to an aerotech heating system.

and lastly jim, your too nice of a guy to get in a pissing match with, I can agree to disagree all day long, but I stand by what I have said, if I speculated I prefaced that with what I said.

there are 6 here in my town..use to be 7 but mine is gone.....4 of which I help service...fix..and gets parts for.....

I didn't read your whole post...not really going to do much good...we can agree to dis-agree and leave it at that....[/quote:1ohohsp7]


Ok i read the propane part, and your WRONG, on all those...its not a bigger pita, for the performance you get from it...

after hrs, and running out...dont be a dumb ass and allow it to happen

and you act like it takes hrs to fill it...

and there must be a few places or people wouldnt have that many bar b ques....


Much like the doodaddy thread you started a while ago, with nothing to back it up...ill go with Jim on this one....oh and ill post pics of a vortex machine that had a blower redone.... :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: not pretty

 

[joe harper]

Thank's Larry...

The only way that this discussion can CONTINUE....is hypothetically...!

If Ron & Bill..names are NOT used..!!! then the discussion should NOT be
harmful to either party..! "The way that .."I".. am reading this thread...
Is that a Ron is being a Whiner & is demanding an unreasonable restitution. :roll:

I just don't see it that way...!!! It seems to me that he has made every
reasonable effort to resolve this issue..! I hate to see any cleaner be
shut down by the manufacturer..."stating their hands are tied by company
Policy... :x "Then CHANGE the policy..!!!"

I am also tired of the "catch phrase"..."OUR INDUSTRY"..."It doesn't EXIST".. :roll:
We are all just Independent contractor's ...Trying to PROVIDE for our family's.....!

IF ...their were INDUSTRY STANDARDS...The little guy would have a Fighting Chance
in these types of situations... :idea: As is "STANDS"...you either BeNd OvER...or..
jeopardize the future of you Entire business...For fooking ATTORNEY'S FEES... thathurts

I sympathise with Ron because, I had the same type of problem with a Major Manufacturer.

"Their ANSWER was.!".."Well we have several of the same modle & year unit out there..
and you are the ONLY on having this issue... :roll: What they DID NOT ..say is...We don't
have this problem YET...!!! We were operating in 100 degree weather...Which is WHY..
our issue was happening NOW... Two months LATER..Guess what...? Suddenly
all the complaints came ROLLING IN..."Because IT was SUMMER up north..." !gotcha!

I guess ..my point IS...We do not know Ron's SCOPE of work...?
He may be one of the ONLY guys in the country that runs his VORTEX..7 hrs..NON-STOP..!

What if the UNIT ..@ 5 hrs..EXCEEDS..it temps that was designed for..AND COOKS THE BLOWER.... :shock: "That is why the manufacturer"...SHOULD SPEAK-UP...!

Ps This is NOT an isolated incident... :roll: ..TWO different units ..SAME ISSUE..4 Blowers
with FACTORY authorized technicians.. :!:

 

[floorguy]

as you can tell this is an old one....and the 1 pic, you cant quiet make out the pile of grease :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

GREASE!!!!!!!

DOES HIS EXAHUST LOOK LIKE THIS :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

 

[joe harper]

Doug..

We BUY what suits our business needs...

If you are a PROPANE ..guy that is GREAT... 8)

BUT ...not all of us choose that type of heat...!
Some like electric...some like pto's...some prefer Slide-ins..PERSONAL PREFERANCE.. :idea:

I would buy ..fuel-fired ...in the 1st place...NOT be told to convert.. thathurts

To each his OWN... 8)

ps..If my business was located in a cold climate.."I would burn PROPANE"..But it is NOT...!

 

[floorguy]

WHILE THIS IS ABOUT HIS BLOWERS....

wouldnt you want to simplify something that continues to be a big pita??

i am just saying..

remember our talk....let it breath baby 8) 8) 8) 8) :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

 

[joe harper]

as you can tell this is an old one....and the 1 pic, you cant quiet make out the pile of grease :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

GREASE!!!!!!!

DOES HIS EXAHUST LOOK LIKE THIS :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

The price of a NEW blower would..TOTAL...that POS... :roll:

How can you EVEN post that POS..."I hope it is NOT your's"...

Someone..should be "HORSE-WHIPPED"..for letting a peice of equipment get in that shape..!

 

[steve g]

doug, propane is a PITA if your machine is an HX machine and it is suppose to be putting out ample heat WITHOUT using propane. I live in herriman, the closest place I know of that sells propane is 10 mins from my house, an ACE hardware store. they close in the evenings and are closed on sundays and holidays. when you arrive the supervisor normally fills the tanks, one must park, go in and wait in line then, the cashier must radio him to come, by the time its all said and done I have wasted 30 mins of my time. not to mention went out of my normal way to stop there. I have also had to pay them a check for the heat my machine should have produced without using an extra fuel.

lets not forget ron bought an HX machine not a propane one. the propane machines I ran were steam genie sizzlers with 120k btw little giant heaters. I can tell you that my little prochem legend puts out more total heat than a 120k little giant. there is a 180k little giant but I seriously doubt its going to provide as much heat for dual wand as what ron already had.

fuel oil IMO is the only thing that is going to keep up with his heat requirements. a diesel unit that draws from the truck tank makes the most sense to me.

 

[floorguy]

http://maps.google.com/maps?um=1&ie=UTF ... CAQQtgMwAA

well maybe for you, cuz you live out in that inflated area shiteatinggrin shiteatinggrin shiteatinggrin shiteatinggrin

but you dont ever travel in to town??

I have places close to me in Layton, but i travel to ogden to get it from the amerigas place...and i just plan on running errands that way....

never the less, when i bought a guys biz, i bought it mostly for the machine (everest)...and to my sad discovery the exchangers were shit...both SS ones where blocked beyond what i thought repair (John thought other wise, but i took them to the recyclers)...If i didnt have my LP I would be shit outa luck..BUT i did/do have it, and didnt want to trust the hx to keep up with my hi flow needs (we all are mostly of the hi flow right??)

never the less...it is still an each his own, and for you or harper to say LP is a pain...i say HX and all their problems is a pain
6]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VEMtZz-Vi46]

 

[Dolly Llama]

The only way that this discussion can CONTINUE....is hypothetically...!

:

oakie doakie then
I'm not sure i want to...but lets continue.
cause I think there CAN be a very constructive debate. and it doesn't even have to involve TMs.
It can be any tool or piece of equipment, be it a weed eater or a well drilling machine

Our hypothetical debate can be about materials, engineering and assy of a mouse trap (MT) and the responsibility/expectations of the manufactures of MT's

To remove a critical variable, we'll assume that end user performs all scheduled maintenance and is using MT within specifications .

There are a number of MT makers all claiming to build a better MT
Prices and options vary as well as designs

MT builder A makes a simple MT that's been around for years and has a proven record
MT builder B builds another MT that's constantly changing from year to year... from MT to MT even.

when the warranty is up, how long is the MT builder to bare financially responsibility for poor engineering/lack of R&D ?

After the warranty is up, at what point does the buyer bare responsibility for buying a poorly engineered and unproven MT ?

..L.T.A.